Overlap in sports. Is it possible?

ecoli

http://bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2013/02/jeff_demps_will_race_for_team_usa_wants_to_be_two_sport

Firm believer that this is a way forward for athletics in this country given the small pool of talent we have is there possibility for cross over and pooling of resources for the overall benefit of sport in general in this country?

Looking at the Tommy Bowe programme from the weekend even though it was designed to make Bowe look better in some aspects than he was, it got me thinking of some of the similarities between field sports and sprints and field events

I have also stated the belief in taking gymnasts and exposing them to Pole Vault

How much money could be saved in terms of funding by educating a sprints coach who could be used for speed development with GAA or Soccer also as opposed to half training up 3 seperate coaches or is there too much of a fear of losing athletes to other sports in this country that it creates a fearful mind set amongst some of the sports (I know GAA used to fear Soccer back when I was playing for fear of losing some of the top talent)

Similarly the superclub notion or centres of excellence as a way forward for pooled resources.

sam30

True. The brits have been class at it with crossover with their track cyclists and rowers and obviously with looking at track athletes to become winter olympic athletes. Funnily saw one of the british olympic athletes on ski sunday who could not ski!Surely the purists in winter sports must hate that. The whole concept of sports specificity in training has been propagated to make jobs for sports scientists etc. At the end of the day most sports need fundamental fitness/strenght/mobilty skills that then need to be added to for each sport

TFBubendorfer

sam30 wrote: »

At the end of the day most sports need fundamental fitness/strenght/mobilty skills that then need to be added to for each sport

That's not in question. However, that does not stop coaches from one discipline to successfully switch to another.

I read Bradley Wiggin's book a couple of months ago where he mentions Tim Kerrison a lot, and he certainly thinks that Tim was instrumental in team Sky's success last year.

He had come from swimming and before that he had worked as a rowing coach (after being a rower himself). The fact that he came to cycling with an open mind was extremely helpful; a lot of pre-conceived ideas were ditched eventually when he started asking basic question that nobody had been bothered to ask before (e.g. "Why do you start training properly in December? " "Because we've always done it that way ...") I'm paraphrasing obviously, and I haven't got the book in front of me, so maybe it was November.

As a result of this fresh input, Team Sky eventually started training differently and more scientifically to all other pro teams, and Wiggins clearly attributes their success last year to this.

rom

ecoli wrote: »

I know GAA used to fear Soccer back when I was playing for fear of losing some of the top talent

Still does. I know a local GAA team schedules the matches to clash with soccer training and games so players have to play just GAA. I don't know if this is an isolated case but I asked if I could pay for membership of my local GAA club (whatever it is 50 or 100 euro) and be able to run around the outside of the pitches to a member of a board in another club. (This guy is in his 20's). He said they would never allow it. They are not inclusive of non GAA sports but don't mind holding road races as "fundraisers" at the expense of athletics.

In saying the above there are loads of examples of the opposite also where much road races would not have a race headquarters, showers, changing, somewhere for the tea and sambo's, parking etc if it wasn't for GAA clubs.

I know it sounds radical but athletics should look to become a recognised sport under the GAA umbrella which include the traditional Irish sports of hurling, camogie, Gaelic football, handball and rounders (according to wikipedia). This would be the change that athletics in Ireland needs.

RayCun

rom wrote: »

I know it sounds radical but athletics should look to become a recognised sport under the GAA umbrella which include the traditional Irish sports of hurling, camogie, Gaelic football, handball and rounders (according to wikipedia). This would be the change that athletics in Ireland needs.

How much priority do you think the heads of the GAA would give to athletics if we became part of their system?

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

How much priority do you think the heads of the GAA would give to athletics if we became part of their system?

How much would we be able to offer also? This mentality of us vs them is the biggest obstacle though. It may be naive but if can look at it from a neutral position there are pro s and cons to each sport doing this but personally I think the benefits on a whole outweigh the negatives

sam30

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That's not in question. However, that does not stop coaches from one discipline to successfully switch to another.

I read Bradley Wiggin's book a couple of months ago where he mentions Tim Kerrison a lot, and he certainly thinks that Tim was instrumental in team Sky's success last year.

He had come from swimming and before that he had worked as a rowing coach (after being a rower himself). The fact that he came to cycling with an open mind was extremely helpful; a lot of pre-conceived ideas were ditched eventually when he started asking basic question that nobody had been bothered to ask before (e.g. "Why do you start training properly in December? " "Because we've always done it that way ...") I'm paraphrasing obviously, and I haven't got the book in front of me, so maybe it was November.

As a result of this fresh input, Team Sky eventually started training differently and more scientifically to all other pro teams, and Wiggins clearly attributes their success last year to this.

I completely agree. When i said certain skills needed to be added to i meant more on the tactical/technical side of for instance body position on the bike v in the boat. I know on the medical side of things team sky looked to employ physios who hadnt previously worked in professional sport to bring a wider fresher lookto their approach to performance enhancement, injury prevention and injury assessment and management. They also though had some backroom personnel with some previous associations with teams who doped.

RayCun

Centres of excellence shared between sports could work - have a lot of coaches, doctors, facilities in one place to be used by whoever... sure.
But there's no advantage to athletics to fold itself into GAA (or hockey to become part of the IRFU, or whatever)
If athletics joined the GAA, at the national level and (in most cases) the local level our concerns would be swamped. How will this funding from the ISC be distributed within GAAthletics? Let's take a vote - oh look, most people want it to go on grants for hurling players rather than sending a bigger squad to the Worlds. Better luck next time, eh?
And if one club is training people in GAA and athletics, and most people in the club are GAA, where do you think the training priority will be? Sure, do a bit of sprint work now and then, maybe cross country running in winter, but what happens when football season starts?

RayCun

ecoli wrote: »

How much would we be able to offer also?

We can train them in sprinting and endurance.
What do they have to offer?

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

We can train them in sprinting and endurance.
What do they have to offer?

A national network and infrastructure which could benefit any sport regarding talent identification

A wide target audience which could increase profile of the sport

Good links to the education institutes around the country which is something which the sport is in bad need of creating better ties and secondary and third level education centres in this country

I can understand the fear of losing some of our talent but at the same time some players who may get sick of sitting on he bench may look to other avenues if there are more opportunities staring them in the face. The all inclusive nature of athletics can appeal compared to the not getting their game on a continual basis.

rom

RayCun wrote: »

We can train them in sprinting and endurance.
What do they have to offer?

- maintained pitches to run around that are floodlit as field games are on year round.
- clubhouse, chainging rooms, gym, equipment for drills. some clubs have sauna's, ice bath etc
- my local club has a strength and conditioning coach to aid peoples rehab from injuries
- group discounts at physio or in the case of some clubs complementary sessions after injury assessment.
- cheaper insurance.
- everything in place to put on a sports day or road race with pitches with stands, stewards, experience in organising larger public events.
- exposure of the sport to more people
- indoor training facilities. a lot of GAA clubs have these, how many running clubs do ?
to start

wrstan

rom wrote: »

Still does. I know a local GAA team schedules the matches to clash with soccer training and games so players have to play just GAA. I don't know if this is an isolated case but I asked if I could pay for membership of my local GAA club (whatever it is 50 or 100 euro) and be able to run around the outside of the pitches to a member of a board in another club. (This guy is in his 20's). He said they would never allow it. They are not inclusive of non GAA sports but don't mind holding road races as "fundraisers" at the expense of athletics.

In saying the above there are loads of examples of the opposite also where much road races would not have a race headquarters, showers, changing, somewhere for the tea and sambo's, parking etc if it wasn't for GAA clubs.

I know it sounds radical but athletics should look to become a recognised sport under the GAA umbrella which include the traditional Irish sports of hurling, camogie, Gaelic football, handball and rounders (according to wikipedia). This would be the change that athletics in Ireland needs.

I really like your radical idea Rom, partly cos I really like radical ideas;). The other side of the argument is how much prominence does the likes of handball get in the GAA, it certainly doesn't feature in any of the clubs that I have come accross (which isn't very many but you get my point). But regardless of a counter argument the value of radical ideas is often where they lead you too (hope that doesn't sound too esoteric :cool:).

On the issue of the inclusiveness of the GAA, my experience is very positive. On a Saturday morning at my local club you can see kids and coaches training in Leinster tops, Barcelona tops, Man U tops etc. as well as various county colours. Many of the kids come to training straight from rugby or soccer. I think it is much more ecumenical than its reputation.

I was approached this year by the local GAA club, knowing that I help coach the juveniles in my running club, to ask if I would join the U14's coaching team with the specific objective of teaching the kids how to run. We now start most sessions with 10 - 15 minutes running drills. I am sure by the end of the season it will serve the team really well. Also I would'nt be surprised at all if some of the kids discover that they really like running and go on to progress in athletics - even after a few weeks I can see that there's some real talent there.

RayCun

cynic hat on

ecoli wrote: »

A national network and infrastructure which could benefit any sport regarding talent identification

This kid is strong and can run - onto the GAA team so
You can have that kid... maybe they'll be good at, eh... the hammer yoke?

no GAA coach is going to say, "this kid has great natural speed, they're too fast for hurling", or "this kid has great stamina and dedication, but poor ball handling skills. Guess I can't do anything with them"

ecoli wrote: »

A wide target audience which could increase profile of the sport

What are the viewership figures for camogie and handball?

ecoli wrote: »

Good links to the education institutes around the country which is something which the sport is in bad need of creating better ties and secondary and third level education centres in this country

Back to the talent identification problem. These links are all about personal connections. If you have a teacher in a school who is also involved with hockey, there'll be kids who go through to the hockey club. If the teacher is a hurling coach, they'll get kids into hurling. They're not going to recruit for other teams. It's just human nature.

ecoli wrote: »

I can understand the fear of losing some of our talent but at the same time some players who may get sick of sitting on he bench may look to other avenues if there are more opportunities staring them in the face. The all inclusive nature of athletics can appeal compared to the not getting their game on a continual basis.

You don't need to join the GAA club to have a high profile. And if athletics is seen as something done by the people who can't cut it on the field...

munchkin_utd

I wouldnt be so cynical about the clash of individual and team sport responsibilites within the GAA.

World Champion handballer Paul Brady plays football for club and county but always has stated that his individual events (that pay the bills as theres prizemoney involved!) always have priority and he does/ did miss games due to him prioritising handball commitments.

RayCun

rom wrote: »

- maintained pitches to run around that are floodlit as field games are on year round.

rom wrote: »

I asked if I could pay for membership of my local GAA club (whatever it is 50 or 100 euro) and be able to run around the outside of the pitches to a member of a board in another club. He said they would never allow it.

rom wrote: »

- clubhouse, chainging rooms, gym, equipment for drills. some clubs have sauna's, ice bath etc

that I'll grant you, GAA clubs have changing rooms and other facilities. And much higher membership fees to pay for those facilities.

rom wrote: »

my local club has a strength and conditioning coach to aid peoples rehab from injuries
- group discounts at physio or in the case of some clubs complementary sessions after injury assessment.

Something athletics clubs can (and do) negotiate themselves

rom wrote: »

- cheaper insurance.

athlete insurance? how much cheaper?

rom wrote: »

- everything in place to put on a sports day or road race with pitches with stands, stewards, experience in organising larger public events.

and these sports days and races would be put on to benefit...?
if the athletics section is piggybacking on the much larger GAA section of a club, events will be put on to benefit the GAA section.
if the athletics section is large enough, it doesn't need to piggyback on a GAA club to run these things, and would get all the benefits themselves

rom wrote: »

- exposure of the sport to more people

works for handball

rom wrote: »

- indoor training facilities. a lot of GAA clubs have these, how many running clubs do ?

how many GAA clubs have indoor facilities _suitable for use in athletics training_?


You would swear from this thread that everyone involved in athletics was some sort of halfwitted leper, incapable of scratching their nose without help from the smart lads in GAA :rolleyes:

If you want to improve the position of athletics do something to improve the position of athletics. Don't try to latch on to some other sport and hope they'll do it for you.

RayCun

wrstan wrote: »

I was approached this year by the local GAA club, knowing that I help coach the juveniles in my running club, to ask if I would join the U14's coaching team with the specific objective of teaching the kids how to run. We now start most sessions with 10 - 15 minutes running drills. I am sure by the end of the season it will serve the team really well. Also I would'nt be surprised at all if some of the kids discover that they really like running and go on to progress in athletics - even after a few weeks I can see that there's some real talent there.

Let me make sure I'm clear

In the future, some of those kids might take up athletics. But it hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, the GAA club got an extra coach for their under 14 team.

this is the model we should follow?

rom

wrstan wrote: »

On the issue of the inclusiveness of the GAA, my experience is very positive. On a Saturday morning at my local club you can see kids and coaches training in Leinster tops, Barcelona tops, Man U tops etc. as well as various county colours. Many of the kids come to training straight from rugby or soccer. I think it is much more ecumenical than its reputation.

It depends on supply and demand. If its in Dublin then clubs need to be more tolerant as they have to fight to retain members and telling a 10 year old that he can't wear a soccer top is a silly idea. But in some parts of rural Ireland the GAA club may be the cornerstone of the community and have no competing sports so they get away with less tolerance been showed to other sports and the status quo being maintained. This is what Jerry Kiernan has experienced so his presumption is that all are the same.

wrstan wrote: »

I was approached this year by the local GAA club, knowing that I help coach the juveniles in my running club, to ask if I would join the U14's coaching team with the specific objective of teaching the kids how to run. We now start most sessions with 10 - 15 minutes running drills. I am sure by the end of the season it will serve the team really well. Also I would'nt be surprised at all if some of the kids discover that they really like running and go on to progress in athletics - even after a few weeks I can see that there's some real talent there.

If your club was truly inclusive then why wouldn't you suggest that the kids train one night a week with the running club or merge a training session between the two but that would be a crazy idea. Shouldn't the kids be exposed to running against other runners their own age for them to aspire to rather than the best among the GAA players ? no reason for apartheid

RayCun

munchkin_utd wrote: »

World Champion handballer Paul Brady plays football for club and county but always has stated that his individual events (that pay the bills as theres prizemoney involved!) always have priority and he does/ did miss games due to him prioritising handball commitments.

It's very noble of them to allow a world champion semi-pro in a different game to miss the odd match.

rom

- insurance
Public liability

- sports days etc
In rural Ireland there simply ain't the ability to put these things on without the help of the GAA. In Cork/Dublin/Athlone and a few other places Athletics can stand on it's own and put these events on but it would be an uphill struggle putting it on in area's where GAA is the main sport for a mile.

- works for handball
athletics is a much more popular sport than handball.

- indoor training facilities.
don't know the numbers (was in a one for hurling the other day and it was very good) but how many athletics clubs do ?

- halfwitted comment
sorry but that was not my intent but a GAA club does have more experience with event management with matches on every week whereas an athletics club might have two races organised a year. from small level to up to croke park level.

- do something to improve the position of athletics
what do you suggest ? Can you show me where sports latching on to another sport has not worked ?

ecoli

Not backing down on this one are you Ray

This kid is strong and can run - onto the GAA team so
You can have that kid... maybe they'll be good at, eh... the hammer yoke?

no GAA coach is going to say, "this kid has great natural speed, they're too fast for hurling", or "this kid has great stamina and dedication, but poor ball handling skills. Guess I can't do anything with them"

Again this is from a strictly us v them perspective (I think I am coming from a more idealist view which is perhaps not working in my favour)

While no coach is going to say push a kid away from the sport the idea would be for co operation and feedback from variety of coaches (Athletics, GAA and any other)

The idea of athletics coming under the umbrella of GAA was not my initial thought but rather a symbiotic relationship

What are the viewership figures for camogie and handball?

You have a point there but in many cases these are not truly linked into the GAA. How many times are these players interacting with the GAA players (Camogie players and GAA players training around same time or doing similar sessions? or handball teams trainining at GAA grounds)
If people are involved in aspects similar to their own it creates a bit of interest and a reference point between their own performance and that of athletes competing at the top level.
How many rugby/football people remember racing at mosney but interest at the sport is stopped at such an early age they are isolated from the exposure compared to say someone who trains with you once a week beating you in a long run or 60m sprints who then goes on to win a national medal or local road race etc

Back to the talent identification problem. These links are all about personal connections. If you have a teacher in a school who is also involved with hockey, there'll be kids who go through to the hockey club. If the teacher is a hurling coach, they'll get kids into hurling. They're not going to recruit for other teams. It's just human nature.

Again this is looked at from a single sport perspective if you can have a discussion regarding an athletes strengths and weakness you can identify the persons potential across the different sports and let them make an educated decision for themselves.

You don't need to join the GAA club to have a high profile. And if athletics is seen as something done by the people who can't cut it on the field...

Okay this point I will concede about giving a certain perception of the sport however it can also open someones eyes to the point of "hold on I was getting my game ahead of him yet he has now gone on winning all ireland titles etc". All Ireland titles can mean alot to a GAA player and may feel they have better chance in an individual sport because they happen to be in a mid division team.


I agree there is no point in latching on to another sport but the idea is to co operate with other sports for the overall state of sport in this country be it funds,coach education. It also gives the sport a better opportunity to highlight the sport as a whole by exposing a wider audience to the ins and outs of it

RayCun

ecoli wrote: »

Not backing down on this one are you Ray

The local ****ers are trying to take our training ground :mad:, so talk of improved coordination rings hollow...

ecoli wrote: »

While no coach is going to say push a kid away from the sport the idea would be for co operation and feedback from variety of coaches (Athletics, GAA and any other)

But it does always come down to the individual coach and athlete in the end. I know that none of the coaches in my club would say to a kid, "maybe you should try some other sport instead". And if I was ever tempted to say something like that, it would be to the kids who aren't going to be great at another sport either. Many of the kids doing well in athletics are playing other sports too.

So I'm very sure that no GAA coach (or swimming coach, or boxing coach) is going to push one of their kids towards athletics. And if they did, it would be a kid we wouldn't particularly want.

ecoli wrote: »

You have a point there but in many cases these are not truly linked into the GAA. How many times are these players interacting with the GAA players (Camogie players and GAA players training around same time or doing similar sessions? or handball teams trainining at GAA grounds)

I'm sure they're more connected than athletes would be. Camogie players do basically the same thing as hurlers. Athletes have very different training, so would benefit from the association about as much as handballers.

wrstan

RayCun wrote: »

This kid is strong and can run - onto the GAA team so
You can have that kid... maybe they'll be good at, eh... the hammer yoke?

no GAA coach is going to say, "this kid has great natural speed, they're too fast for hurling", or "this kid has great stamina and dedication, but poor ball handling skills. Guess I can't do anything with them"

Dontya think these kids can make up their own minds! You should meet mine
My view is that with my involvement, some of these kids will have exposure to a speed session, or hill runs, or something that they wouldn't have otherwise experienced and will think, yep I really like this running lark! I will be amazed if I get through a season and some of these lads don't turn up at the local running club for a session to try it out further.

RayCun wrote: »

Let me make sure I'm clear

In the future, some of those kids might take up athletics. But it hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, the GAA club got an extra coach for their under 14 team.

this is the model we should follow?

Ha ha! Gimme a break Ray! I've been at this 3 weeks so far
But seriously I never looked at it like that - I feel so exploited now

rom wrote: »

It depends on supply and demand. If its in Dublin then clubs need to be more tolerant as they have to fight to retain members and telling a 10 year old that he can't wear a soccer top is a silly idea.

Yep, this club is in the heart of the suburbs!

rom wrote: »

If your club was truly inclusive then why wouldn't you suggest that the kids train one night a week with the running club or merge a training session between the two but that would be a crazy idea. Shouldn't the kids be exposed to running against other runners their own age for them to aspire to rather than the best among the GAA players ?

Hey, that's exactly what I was thinking, the problem is no one is goign to believe I came up with that idea now.


Footnote: If any of my mates are reading this they'll be pi$$ing themselves laughing a me being an apologist for the GAA, having been considered as a rugby loving GAA basher most of my life

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

The local ****ers are trying to take our training ground :mad:, so talk of improved coordination rings hollow...

All the more reason why you should share the facilities between your javelin throwers and there teams

RayCun wrote: »

But it does always come down to the individual coach and athlete in the end. I know that none of the coaches in my club would say to a kid, "maybe you should try some other sport instead". And if I was ever tempted to say something like that, it would be to the kids who aren't going to be great at another sport either. Many of the kids doing well in athletics are playing other sports too.

So I'm very sure that no GAA coach (or swimming coach, or boxing coach) is going to push one of their kids towards athletics. And if they did, it would be a kid we wouldn't particularly want.

But if sports were working side by side a coach of one sport might pick up on a subtle characteristic individual to their sport.

Take a kid who is fast but cant last a full game or couldnt kick a point to save their life. A GAA coach might say "oh he is just not fit enough" or "oh we just shove him in defence" where a sprints coach might so okay he is not a 400m runner but over 60m/100m he could be lethal

Likewise an athlete who is tall and has a great bounce might not be strong enough for GAA to get his game and they may feel he needs to bulk up, a higher jumper might see the muscle elasticity as a key asset for that sport

Not all assets are sports transferable and as such a specific sport coach might not pick up on a major talent that another sport might

RayCun wrote: »

I'm sure they're more connected than athletes would be. Camogie players do basically the same thing as hurlers. Athletes have very different training, so would benefit from the association about as much as handballers.

GAA players early season do long aerobic runs, and strength and conditioning stuff and as such there is some overlap. Players and and athletes doing S&C together can create ties and also educate from the "bulk up" mentality to actually working on power output and explosive execises

RayCun

rom wrote: »

- insurance
Public liability

You've lost me. Athletics club members are insured in training by AAI, AAI-registered races are insured through AAI. Public liability insurance for what?

rom wrote: »

- sports days etc
In rural Ireland there simply ain't the ability to put these things on without the help of the GAA. In Cork/Dublin/Athlone and a few other places Athletics can stand on it's own and put these events on but it would be an uphill struggle putting it on in area's where GAA is the main sport for a mile.

I disagree, to an extent. If there is a large GAA club in a town and a small athletics club then obviously, the two together can put on an event larger than the athletics club would be able to on its own.
But even a small club could put on a series of family races if it wanted. Or put on sports things as part of a town fair. Or get together with other clubs in the county to have a larger event, or series of events.

rom wrote: »

- works for handball
athletics is a much more popular sport than handball.

and somehow manages that without benefiting from the overlapping audience that handball gets from GAA

rom wrote: »

- indoor training facilities.
don't know the numbers (was in a one for hurling the other day and it was very good) but how many athletics clubs do ?

Not very many. So we train outdoors. Who do you think would get first dibs on the indoor training facilities in a merged club?

rom wrote: »

- halfwitted comment
sorry but that was not my intent but a GAA club does have more experience with event management with matches on every week whereas an athletics club might have two races organised a year. from small level to up to croke park level.

There is a lot more organisation involved in putting on a road race, from advertising, registration and road closures, than hosting a match on a fixed pitch.

rom wrote: »

- do something to improve the position of athletics
what do you suggest ? Can you show me where sports latching on to another sport has not worked ?

Can you show me where it has?

Do something to improve the position of athletics? Join your local club. Coach young athletes. Help organise a road race (or other fundraiser). Organise the use of indoor and outdoor training facilities where needed. Build facilities for the future. Expect it to take time.

RayCun

ecoli wrote: »

Take a kid who is fast but cant last a full game or couldnt kick a point to save their life. A GAA coach might say "oh he is just not fit enough" or "oh we just shove him in defence" where a sprints coach might so okay he is not a 400m runner but over 60m/100m he could be lethal

yeah, so the sprints coach says, "right, I'm taking this guy for sprints training" and the GAA coach says "Are you deaf? I just said, we'll put him in defence"

Because if this kid really is fast, fast enough for it to show up in GAA matches, the GAA coach will find a use for that ability. And get the tall guy to be a goalie, and the strong, nimble guy to be something else.

A kid might be a B standard GAA player and an A standard something else, but the GAA coach won't want to lose B standard players and have to replace them with C standards.

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

yeah, so the sprints coach says, "right, I'm taking this guy for sprints training" and the GAA coach says "Are you deaf? I just said, we'll put him in defence"

Because if this kid really is fast, fast enough for it to show up in GAA matches, the GAA coach will find a use for that ability. And get the tall guy to be a goalie, and the strong, nimble guy to be something else.

A kid might be a B standard GAA player and an A standard something else, but the GAA coach won't want to lose B standard players and have to replace them with C standards.

This is where interaction with the player comes into play at end of the day it becomes down to choice for them. Which is better the kid who is shoved in defence even though he wants to play forward but has no other option or the kid who is told by someone that they have the other options.

I have seen this happen in my own club with a lad who was 4th or 5th scorer on our cross country team plugged away at it but then sprints coach came over and talked to him about his potential in the sprints. At the time we all trained as a group and had good camraderie but going to sprints there were only two of them and i was under a different coach so our coach was losing a scorer for XC teams

Years on and he has out performed all of us in terms of athletics performance by streaks.

Trick is to get to a point where it is no viewed as us or them but rather a few parts to the same club regardless of the sport

Coaches are there for the benefit of the athlete first and foremost and the athletes welfare should always take precedence

rom

What are the spectators insured under ?

Your definition or rural and mine seem to differ

I don't think for a second that you would get first dips on any training facility but much of these facilities are ideal at weekends when games are on and other parts of the day.

I am well aware of the level of organisation it takes but for example if I want to go to a inter-county GAA match I go onto GAA.ie and find the fixture however if I want to run a half marathon in a specific month there is no where I can go and check permits for race distances dates times etc ?
The is a lot of organisation involved involved which is duplicated for every road race as they are often treated as one off events from different organiser. Road closures, advertising and registration should all be handled via AAI so that duplication of effort is not done for every event. Charge a bit more for the permit but give value back in respect to an online entry system,results, advertising,timing equipment ,an actual calendar of events, process of application for road closures (if needed) etc.

something to improve the position of athletics
- I agree

American football or football pitches in Germany commonly have an athletics track around them but no GAA pitch has.

I think it probably a bit close to home for you and them trying to take your pitch. I am for 'Bull' McCabe if it's any consolation

RayCun

rom wrote: »

American football or football pitches in Germany commonly have an athletics track around them but no GAA pitch has.

GAA pitches are larger than soccer pitches, afaik, so they wouldn't fit inside a track

Letyourselfgo

Sth to back ecoli's view
http://thedailycougar.com/2013/02/28/football-brings-team-speed/

Cleanman

I've just seen this tread now. I think there's huge overlap between the two sports (GAA and athletics). Having being heavily involved in both over the years, I can see several advantages to both in using coaches from the opposite sport. It's not about poaching or pushing one kid from a certain sport to another. But if it was, surely athletics would win? It's simple Maths. GAA is played by thousands of kids. Exposing some to athletics training will surely lead to some taking up athletics and loving it.

But that's slightly off the point. GAA coaches have not been shy on asking for help in coaching. Take wrstan for example getting involed with the U14s to teach them how to run properly. That's not rare. I'm involved with a few teams myself up to adult level. In my experience GAA players are now exposed to so many different types of training from athletics, swimming, strength and conditioning, yoga etc etc. On the other hand, athletics coaches are a lot slower to get other disiplines involved. In my club for example, there are several very decent runners who only run - I barely ever see them even stretch. I look at them and wonder how good they could be if they augmented their training with some other training - even just basic balance/core work. That's where athletics is falling behind. We need to learn to ask for help and take it when it's out there. Not look at other coaches and think, "if he gets near our young fellas, he'll have a hurl in their hand in no time and they'll wave goodbye to running". It doesn't work like that.

rom

It is also the case that overlap would mean that the natural progression for GAA players would be athletics. Now they may not be fruitful as their best days will be behind them but it will give athletics a better ranking in sports selection for their children than it currently is and this is where the future of the sport is. Even those who believe that mass participation is a bad thing can't argue with this.

I was training on a track and kids where doing 100 meter repeats. They were told to stay in their lane and a few other orders. It seemed boring to me so it must be really boring to them. The same guy came first and 2nd each time. Athletics needs to be fun as if you don't enjoy something then you ain't going to do it.

Personally I think if a club has elite runners and a underage section then they should have the elites train in the inside lanes and the kids train in the outside lanes. Segregation is fine because of numbers at times but watching how good some people are on a weekly basis is inspirational for the kids. Sorry wandering off the point here. I suppose it's a similar thing as being the fastest GAA player. You want the kid coming first to be motivated to try even harder.

ecoli

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Sth to back ecoli's view
http://thedailycougar.com/2013/02/28/football-brings-team-speed/

There are plenty of examples I can think of from the American side off hand

Jeff Demps - NFL
Galen Rupp - Football
Andrew Wheating - Football
Alan Webb - Swimming

Letyourselfgo

ecoli wrote: »

There are plenty of examples I can think of from the American side off hand

Jeff Demps - NFL
Galen Rupp - Football
Andrew Wheating - Football
Alan Webb - Swimming

I don't know the background to those examples was it a case of just picking another sport rather than the cooperation of two sports working together? as in the example I gave where the football coach made it compulsory to join the track team.

ecoli

Cleanman wrote: »

I've just seen this tread now. I think there's huge overlap between the two sports (GAA and athletics). Having being heavily involved in both over the years, I can see several advantages to both in using coaches from the opposite sport. It's not about poaching or pushing one kid from a certain sport to another. But if it was, surely athletics would win? It's simple Maths. GAA is played by thousands of kids. Exposing some to athletics training will surely lead to some taking up athletics and loving it.

But that's slightly off the point. GAA coaches have not been shy on asking for help in coaching. Take wrstan for example getting involed with the U14s to teach them how to run properly. That's not rare. I'm involved with a few teams myself up to adult level. In my experience GAA players are now exposed to so many different types of training from athletics, swimming, strength and conditioning, yoga etc etc. On the other hand, athletics coaches are a lot slower to get other disiplines involved. In my club for example, there are several very decent runners who only run - I barely ever see them even stretch. I look at them and wonder how good they could be if they augmented their training with some other training - even just basic balance/core work. That's where athletics is falling behind. We need to learn to ask for help and take it when it's out there. Not look at other coaches and think, "if he gets near our young fellas, he'll have a hurl in their hand in no time and they'll wave goodbye to running". It doesn't work like that.

Some good points I think you dont need to look at it as trying to poach kids or get the "weaker" kids who can't cut it. Simple fact is there are a finite number of people involved in this country, exposure is always going to drive the numbers up so if you create ties with other sports athletics is not as easily hidden away. Its the same principle as the GAA in terms of creating ties to the parish
If drink wasnt counter productive to the sport I would say getting local pub to sponsor every club and create ties to the public that way

You make a very good point regarding coaches. I noticed a few kids came down to our club last year from a basketball background. They started off just looking to use the facilities in the off season but soon got into sprinting for the club. What I noticed was they had all a very good knowledge of plyometrics that far exceeded any of the coaches they would be working under which they had got from the basketball coaches.

Similar enough I notice power lifters seem to have a greater awareness off explosive exercises for S & C but also a more in depth understanding of nutrition. Like that athletics would offer a great knowledge in terms aerobic development and energy pathways

There are so many aspects which are lacking in the approach from each sport on a more grass routes level which athletes only become aware of if they get to more elite levels but we need to have the proper education for coaches available the whole way down. No one sport has the funding to educated coaches in all these areas which is why I feel pooled resources would be a great idea.

Given state of funding of sport in this country we have to think outside the box of ways to develop without the need for more investment. The beggar perception of minority sports in this country creates more friction than anything with relation to the general public. How often do we see people complaining of how an athlete was a "waste of tax payers money" post global championship/doping scandal

ecoli

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

I don't know the background to those examples was it a case of just picking another sport rather than the cooperation of two sports working together? as in the example I gave where the football coach made it compulsory to join the track team.

Apologies missed that in the article (saw the mention of Errol Nolan following his brothers example)

Letyourselfgo

rom wrote: »

I was training on a track and kids where doing 100 meter repeats. They were told to stay in their lane and a few other orders. It seemed boring to me so it must be really boring to them. The same guy came first and 2nd each time. Athletics needs to be fun as if you don't enjoy something then you ain't going to do it.

.

Not necessarily so. Kids love racing against each other. I work with kids from 7-11 and when we're not on the track all I can hear from them is ''when are we going on the track'' you're right though it does need to be fun but trust me they like taking each other on but we would throw a few games in as well, there needs to be a blend of fun/social and practical.

ecoli

rom wrote: »

It is also the case that overlap would mean that the natural progression for GAA players would be athletics. Now they may not be fruitful as their best days will be behind them but it will give athletics a better ranking in sports selection for their children than it currently is and this is where the future of the sport is. Even those who believe that mass participation is a bad thing can't argue with this.

I was training on a track and kids where doing 100 meter repeats. They were told to stay in their lane and a few other orders. It seemed boring to me so it must be really boring to them. The same guy came first and 2nd each time. Athletics needs to be fun as if you don't enjoy something then you ain't going to do it.

Personally I think if a club has elite runners and a underage section then they should have the elites train in the inside lanes and the kids train in the outside lanes. Segregation is fine because of numbers at times but watching how good some people are on a weekly basis is inspirational for the kids. Sorry wandering off the point here. I suppose it's a similar thing as being the fastest GAA player. You want the kid coming first to be motivated to try even harder.

It is interesting to note that in he last five years during the current boom that athletics membership has also increased however unfortunately the coaching/ monetary benefits here have been minimal for the sport that you would usually associate with such an increase

I think the second one actually highlights an underlying theme of the thread and the point I was trying to make about exposure. We need to be challenging our athletes to break through barriers. Exposure to elites drive on the up and coming athletes. A hierarchy within a club as a way of progression of athletes can be a good approach. Growing up in athletics we always looked to progress to the next training group in terms of ability once we had outgrown the next. We were always looking to the next group and what we needed to do to get into it.

Likewise say with GAA/Soccer players if we were able to expose these players to athletics they would go from being fastest on the team to wanting to breaking out of that bubble and strive for higher if they are being beaten by these sprinters etc. The aim would be to eliminate the possibility of complacency which can happen unless there is a higher level of competition

There is a double edge sword however here in terms of numbers on track at an one time as I have seen in my own club where by there is simply not enough place on the track for everyone between kids, middle distance groups in lane one, distance people in lane one and two and sprinters it can create chaos for training

wrstan

ecoli wrote: »

There are plenty of examples I can think of from the American side off hand

Jeff Demps - NFL
Galen Rupp - Football
Andrew Wheating - Football
Alan Webb - Swimming

Galen Rupp is a great example! As far as I know he had a very promising soccer career ahead of him as a school boy. His soccer coach asked Alberto Salazar to come down and coach the team running, with a specific objective of improving their endurance. When Salazar noticed Rupp's talent to knock out 200m reps, and the rest, as the say ...

mithril

rom wrote: »

It is also the case that overlap would mean that the natural progression for GAA players would be athletics. Now they may not be fruitful as their best days will be behind them but it will give athletics a better ranking in sports selection for their children than it currently is and this is where the future of the sport is. Even those who believe that mass participation is a bad thing can't argue with this.

It seem plausible that a GAA player would retire from their sport in their early thirties when it's not possible to do it at the top level, and move into endurance sports such as athletics or triathlon. However, I am surprised at how few examples there are. I am no expert in the Gaa, but I can't think of any retired intercounty GAA players who regularly run marathons?

Does the bulking up and power lifting which rugby and GAA players practice for strength gain count against them if they want to switch to athletics in later life?

walshb

mithril wrote: »

Does the bulking up and power lifting which rugby and GAA players practice for strength gain count against them if they want to switch to athletics in later life?

I would have to think so. Long and tough runs will present a greater challenge to a heavier set and built person.

hardCopy

walshb wrote: »

I would have to think so. Long and tough runs will present a greater challenge to a heavier set and built person.

I would have thought most late arrivals to running start off overweight, that generally seems to be a popular theme in the logs section here.

walshb

hardCopy wrote: »

I would have thought most late arrivals to running start off overweight, that generally seems to be a popular theme in the logs section here.

I am not speaking about being medically overweight. Just heavier set and bulkier folks.

Cleanman

mithril wrote: »

It seem plausible that a GAA player would retire from their sport in their early thirties when it's not possible to do it at the top level, and move into endurance sports such as athletics or triathlon. However, I am surprised at how few examples there are. I am no expert in the Gaa, but I can't think of any retired intercounty GAA players who regularly run marathons?

Does the bulking up and power lifting which rugby and GAA players practice for strength gain count against them if they want to switch to athletics in later life?

There are a few things at play here:

• Most intercounty GAA players (at least in the top counties) retire once they are exhausted from the time top intercounty training demands. Training, meetings and travel take up a huge amount of time and most guys don't get involved in another sport once finished. They spend their time on stuff they feel they neglected (be it family, work, studies etc) during their playing days. Most of the guys that do stay involved in sport do so in a team environment as they are comfortable in the environment and/or love the social aspect whereas running is perceived as a lonely pursuit.
• Retired intercounty players actually make up a small pool of players so the chances of getting a few marathon runners are small.
• Intercounty players these days are very heavy. Most are 14 stone and more. I'm no marathoner but I'd say you'd have to be under 12 stone to be a decent marathoner? Loosing 2 plus stone of muscle is not easy and a lot harder than loosing 2 stone of fat.
• Most intercounty players are sprinter types. GAA involves very short bursts of intense effort. Running a marathon is completely the opposite. For that reason, the changeover to endurance is very difficult.

I'm sure there's plenty of ex county players who have run marathons but you'll only hear about them if their performances are high. I know of one guy who has a decent marathon time (about 2:45 I think) but haven't heard of any others.

Enduro

It would be good if Bazman could weigh in here with his thoughts. He's a classic example of the athletic talent that gets hidden away in the GAA system. IIRC he switched his sporting emphasis away from GAA and onto running after his team was relegated. He went from being a pretty good runner to an international standard athlete (and national medal winner in the marathon).

jeffontour

Enduro wrote: »

He's a classic example of the athletic talent that gets hidden away in the GAA system.

pablot was another who was chasing a little ball around with a stick before he realised he could run without the stick or ball.

hardCopy

Cleanman wrote: »

There are a few things at play here:

• Most intercounty GAA players (at least in the top counties) retire once they are exhausted from the time top intercounty training demands. Training, meetings and travel take up a huge amount of time and most guys don't get involved in another sport once finished. They spend their time on stuff they feel they neglected (be it family, work, studies etc) during their playing days. Most of the guys that do stay involved in sport do so in a team environment as they are comfortable in the environment and/or love the social aspect whereas running is perceived as a lonely pursuit.
• Retired intercounty players actually make up a small pool of players so the chances of getting a few marathon runners are small.
• Intercounty players these days are very heavy. Most are 14 stone and more. I'm no marathoner but I'd say you'd have to be under 12 stone to be a decent marathoner? Loosing 2 plus stone of muscle is not easy and a lot harder than loosing 2 stone of fat.
• Most intercounty players are sprinter types. GAA involves very short bursts of intense effort. Running a marathon is completely the opposite. For that reason, the changeover to endurance is very difficult.

I'm sure there's plenty of ex county players who have run marathons but you'll only hear about them if their performances are high. I know of one guy who has a decent marathon time (about 2:45 I think) but haven't heard of any others.

A lot of them probably stick at it until they're crocked as well, or go back to concentrating on their club when they finish with the county.

runnathon

Most of the comments seem directed at people with a reasonable history in a sport switching at some later stage. What about helping youngsters identify the sport for which they're more likely to succeed or excel?

Some years ago the Australian Institute of Sport analysed stars of different sports and produced profiles of physiologies most suited to the sports they were targeting. The one that sticks in my mind is rowing - most top rowers apparently have forearm lengths of a particular proportion of body height (and probably a few other attributes). So they tested secondary school students and identified some that matched the profile, drafted the willing into special squads, and bolstered Olympic results. Most of those kids had no prior exposure to the sport.

Nothing succeeds like success, so down the track, I expect there's a fair chance that some of those identified students will contribute back to their sport in non-competitive roles.

Lou.m

sam30 wrote: »

True. The brits have been class at it with crossover with their track cyclists and rowers and obviously with looking at track athletes to become winter olympic athletes. Funnily saw one of the british olympic athletes on ski sunday who could not ski!Surely the purists in winter sports must hate that. The whole concept of sports specificity in training has been propagated to make jobs for sports scientists etc. At the end of the day most sports need fundamental fitness/strenght/mobilty skills that then need to be added to for each sport

One thing i notice though is that it does mean there are an athletes who are simply mediocre at many sports.


I would also see it leading to frustration as an athlete tries to fight the see sawing needs of different sports. It can also lead to injury.

Most serious athletes do not want to do anything that will interfere with their favorite sport.


I think people need to stop focusing on the athletes and start focusing on the coaches .

There are not enough professional quality coaches....


In other countries professional coaching of a high standard is available to recreational beginner / intermediate runners.

They have tracks and clubs with gyms and other equipment.


How many tracks does Ireland have?

Do athletes have good access to equipment such as hurdles vault etc etc


Do they have access to the coaching? How many secondary schools have distance running teams or athletics teams?Not many.

We need more coaches. And real coaching...not just stay in your lane etc

Things are not fun until you start getting good at them!

runnathon

Dr Ross Tucker, currently in Dublin at the invitation of the International Rugby Board, to present at their biennial Coach Education Workshop, has something to say about long-term athlete development - Foundations and challenges for coaches, scientists & policy-makers at http://www.sportsscientists.com/2013/02/long-term-athlete-development.html

YFlyer

Strength and core work for high jumpers can help you fling kegs across the yard

Oregano_State

YFlyer wrote: »

Strength and core work for high jumpers can help you fling kegs across the yard

Well Adrian O'Dwyer is a bit of a special case. He could have done great things if it wasn't for injuries.