Local Authority Bye-Laws

Iwannahurl

Local Authorities have a statutory role and powers in the creation, implementation and enforcement of bye-laws in different areas of policy.

I believe these law-making powers are referred to as Reserved Functions.

My query is this: once a Local Authority has enacted bye-laws, are these listed in the local equivalent of the Statute Book?

How does a citizen access the list of bye-laws, if such exists?

Is there any central database or other single source of such information?

Alex Salmon

Simply ask the council for a copy.

They are normally made as an SI which is searchable online.

Eaxample http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/si/0202.html

Iwannahurl

Asking a Local Authority for a copy of their bye-laws would mean contacting all 70 or so Councils in the country.

That would be hugely time-consuming -- and frustrating, given the potential number of non-responders.

Is the Irish Statute Book an up-to-date centralised record of every single bye-law enacted by every Local Authority?

If so, that exactly what I need.




EDIT: Just did a specific search, using a Dublin City example from 2011. Not on the Statute Book.

ResearchWill

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Asking a Local Authority for a copy of their bye-laws would mean contacting all 70 or so Councils in the country.

That would be hugely time-consuming -- and frustrating, given the potential number of non-responders.

Is the Irish Statute Book an up-to-date centralised record of every single bye-law enacted by every Local Authority?

If so, that exactly what I need.




EDIT: Just did a specific search, using a Dublin City example from 2011. Not on the Statute Book.

Try http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/

If you know what the bye law is or a rough idea of title and year then a request to LA should get you what you want.

A search of a LA website may also find what you are looking for, as per http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/Waste/Documents/household_waste_bye_laws.pdf

Victor

The councils are rather hit-and-miss in this regard.

Iwannahurl

In every regard, I would suggest.

FYI, what I'm actually looking for is information regarding the implementation of 30 km/h "special" speed limits, which requires the enactment of bye-laws by each roads authority.

My initial approach was to ask a couple of LAs/RAs how many km of road they had designated as 30 km/h, with particular reference to schools.

That got me nowhere. The "Road Safety" Officers hadn't a clue, and the Engineers failed to respond.

Then I realised I was on the wrong tack, and that I should be asking about their bye-laws.

It's still going to be a laborious process, but at least I now know what I should be looking for. One advantage is that I don't have to rely on Engineers for the information -- far be it from them to be answerable on matters concerning public safety.

No surprise that it's such an opaque and unwieldy system, of course. And it won't be a surprise either if most Local Authorities have not made appropriate use of the powers given them by the 2004 Road Traffic Act.

Victor

You only need to ask the city and county councils as they are the roads authorities. Town and borough councils have an input, but aren't roads authorities and so can't make speed limit bye-laws.

ResearchWill

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In every regard, I would suggest.

FYI, what I'm actually looking for is information regarding the implementation of 30 km/h "special" speed limits, which requires the enactment of bye-laws by each roads authority.

My initial approach was to ask a couple of LAs/RAs how many km of road they had designated as 30 km/h, with particular reference to schools.

That got me nowhere. The "Road Safety" Officers hadn't a clue, and the Engineers failed to respond.

Then I realised I was on the wrong tack, and that I should be asking about their bye-laws.

It's still going to be a laborious process, but at least I now know what I should be looking for. One advantage is that I don't have to rely on Engineers for the information -- far be it from them to be answerable on matters concerning public safety.

No surprise that it's such an opaque and unwieldy system, of course. And it won't be a surprise either if most Local Authorities have not made appropriate use of the powers given them by the 2004 Road Traffic Act.

Is this what you want, http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/generaltrafficmeasures/Documents/DUBLIN_CITY_COUNCIL_SPECIAL_SPEED_LIMIT_BYE_LAWS_2011-__Final.doc

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/generaltrafficmeasures/Pages/SpeedLimitsinYourArea.aspx

Just as a quick check here is Cork County Council http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/489662566.pdf

Iwannahurl

Victor wrote: »

You only need to ask the city and county councils as they are the roads authorities. Town and borough councils have an input, but aren't roads authorities and so can't make speed limit bye-laws.

That's useful to know.

It's an example of hit-and-miss, however. I asked Corporate Services in Mayo Co Co about this exact point, and they told me that town councils are roads authorities.

Victor

ResearchWill wrote: »

Is this what you want, http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/generaltrafficmeasures/Documents/DUBLIN_CITY_COUNCIL_SPECIAL_SPEED_LIMIT_BYE_LAWS_2011-__Final.doc

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/generaltrafficmeasures/Pages/SpeedLimitsinYourArea.aspx

Just as a quick check here is Cork County Council http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/489662566.pdf

The problem is that Cork County has multiple, current speed limit bye-laws http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/admin/NP/WPBTool/WPBWebPageH/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Divisional%20Services/Roads/Latest%20News?did=260691493&pageUrl=/Cork+County+Council/Departments/Divisional+Services/Roads/Latest+News and Cork City has two sets of current speed limit bye-laws.

http://www.corkcity.ie/media/2011%20Cork%20City%20Speed%20Bye-laws_Final.pdf
http://www.corkcity.ie/media/Cork%20City%20Road%20Traffic%20Special%20Speed%20Limit%20at%20Specified%20Schools%20Bye%20Laws%202011.pdf

Repeals are often fuzzy.

Iwannahurl

Which is why this kind of muppetry ends up wasting everybody's time in court, in addition to bringing road traffic law and its enforcement into disrepute, IMO.

"Before dismissing the [150] cases, Judge Connellan criticised Wicklow County Council for its inability to furnish the court with relevant documents proving the legal existence of the special limit, which he claimed had 'cast doubts and concern in the mind of the court.'"

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/braypeople/news/but-county-council-will-still-get-another-chance-to-state-its-case-judge-throws-out-152-more-speeding-cases-26972234.html

ResearchWill

Victor wrote: »

The problem is that Cork County has multiple, current speed limit bye-laws http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/admin/NP/WPBTool/WPBWebPageH/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Divisional%20Services/Roads/Latest%20News?did=260691493&pageUrl=/Cork+County+Council/Departments/Divisional+Services/Roads/Latest+News and Cork City has two sets of current speed limit bye-laws.

http://www.corkcity.ie/media/2011%20Cork%20City%20Speed%20Bye-laws_Final.pdf
http://www.corkcity.ie/media/Cork%20City%20Road%20Traffic%20Special%20Speed%20Limit%20at%20Specified%20Schools%20Bye%20Laws%202011.pdf

Repeals are often fuzzy.

There is no contradiction or overlap in any of the links you put up,

From one "Cork City Road Traffic (Special Speed Limits at Specified Schools)
Bye-Laws 2011"

From the other "Cork City Road Traffic (Special Speed Limits) Bye-Laws 2011"

And from the web page "2004 Road Traffic Act - Proposed Special Speed Limit Byelaws 2011 for County Cork

Cork - National Roads Special Speed Limit January 2011

Cork - Regional and Local Roads Special Speed Limit January 2011

Proposed National & Regional Roads Speed Limit Maps "

ResearchWill

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Which is why this kind of muppetry ends up wasting everybody's time in court, in addition to bringing road traffic law and its enforcement into disrepute, IMO.

"Before dismissing the [150] cases, Judge Connellan criticised Wicklow County Council for its inability to furnish the court with relevant documents proving the legal existence of the special limit, which he claimed had 'cast doubts and concern in the mind of the court.'"

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/braypeople/news/but-county-council-will-still-get-another-chance-to-state-its-case-judge-throws-out-152-more-speeding-cases-26972234.html

That can happen in Court, a clever defendant put the council on full proof, as the Court had never seen the Bye Laws before it could not "take judicial notice" of them. As the Council did not have the bye laws in court the case had to be dismissed. Or as in this case no one could show when the resolution was passed.

It does not mean that these bye laws are hard to get only that they did not have them.

Victor

ResearchWill, the whole council bye-law situation is one of farce. The bye-laws are written by (a) people who have no legal training, but with technical skills or (b) people who have legal training, but no technical skills. Neither group know how to use a spell checker or how to proof-read generally.

ResearchWill wrote: »

There is no contradiction or overlap in any of the links you put up,

From one "Cork City Road Traffic (Special Speed Limits at Specified Schools)
Bye-Laws 2011"

From the other "Cork City Road Traffic (Special Speed Limits) Bye-Laws 2011"

I made a detailed submission on the latter bye-laws. The maps and the bye-laws don't agree - various streets are missing or have their names spelled wrong, e.g there is no "Princess Street" in Cork - there is a "Princes Street". Also "Main carriageways of the South Ring Road (N25) from the City Boundary at the Southern Portal of the Jack Lynch Tunnel southwards for a distance of 300 metres. " - but the portal is near, not at the city boundary - what happens the bit in between?

The two sets of bye-laws exist in parallel and confusion could arise. The best way to do it is one set of bye-laws.

When I asked the reception in the council office for a copy of the former bye-laws, I was told "Oh, you can only look at them here, you can't take them with you!". There was nearly a public order incident. :mad:

Victor

Or look at this map of the Limerick city area. because the councils are so unthinking, the speed limit changes 12 times in about 7km - only 4 of these changes are necessary - at the toll plaza and the tunnel.



Or the Waterford Bypass with it's 50km/h speed limit. http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Waterford+City&hl=en&ll=52.267677,-7.17218&spn=0.006723,0.021136&sll=53.3834,-8.21775&sspn=6.713251,21.643066&oq=Waterford&hnear=Waterford,+County+Waterford&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.267677,-7.17218&panoid=zZJqJV0MKSPDaG-srK4BVg&cbp=12,217.28,,0,9.14

ResearchWill

Victor wrote: »

ResearchWill, the whole council bye-law situation is one of farce. The bye-laws are written by (a) people who have no legal training, but with technical skills or (b) people who have legal training, but no technical skills. Neither group know how to use a spell checker or how to proof-read generally.



I made a detailed submission on the latter bye-laws. The maps and the bye-laws don't agree - various streets are missing or have their names spelled wrong, e.g there is no "Princess Street" in Cork - there is a "Princes Street". Also "Main carriageways of the South Ring Road (N25) from the City Boundary at the Southern Portal of the Jack Lynch Tunnel southwards for a distance of 300 metres. " - but the portal is near, not at the city boundary - what happens the bit in between?

The two sets of bye-laws exist in parallel and confusion could arise. The best way to do it is one set of bye-laws.

When I asked the reception in the council office for a copy of the former bye-laws, I was told "Oh, you can only look at them here, you can't take them with you!". There was nearly a public order incident. :mad:

Now badly written law is a whole different case, and goes right to the top most Legislation is very badly drafted.

Spelling errors unless very serious (in that it would be impossible to tell what the bye law is actully saying) would not get a person anywhere in court. If it can be shown that a stretch of road has no special speed limit then the defacto limit will apply.

I think its wrong that copies of bye laws are not readily available at the LA office, but that's up to people to complain to the LA.

Victor

ResearchWill wrote: »

Spelling errors unless very serious (in that it would be impossible to tell what the bye law is actully saying) would not get a person anywhere in court. If it can be shown that a stretch of road has no special speed limit then the defacto limit will apply.

"Princess Street" v "Princes Street"? "Marlborough Street" v "Marlboro Street”?

Does "Oliver Plunkett Street" include "Oliver Plunkett Street Lower"?

"Winthrop Lane" is actually known as “Winthrop Avenue” and "Dalton’s Place" is "Dalton’s Avenue", "Opera House Lane" is “Opera Lane”, "Corn Market Street" is “Corn Market” or “Cornmarket"

"South Main Street from its junction with Castle Street to its junction with Washington Street" - South Main Street does not meet Castle Street – Paradise Place separates them.

The map and Google Maps link I showed has different signage to the actual limit and proves the default (not de facto) problem..

ResearchWill

Victor wrote: »

"Princess Street" v "Princes Street"? "Marlborough Street" v "Marlboro Street”?

Does "Oliver Plunkett Street" include "Oliver Plunkett Street Lower"?

"Winthrop Lane" is actually known as “Winthrop Avenue” and "Dalton’s Place" is "Dalton’s Avenue", "Opera House Lane" is “Opera Lane”, "Corn Market Street" is “Corn Market” or “Cornmarket"

"South Main Street from its junction with Castle Street to its junction with Washington Street" - South Main Street does not meet Castle Street – Paradise Place separates them.

The map and Google Maps link I showed has different signage to the actual limit and proves the default (not de facto) problem..

Well run all those arguments in front of a court. Don't think many DJ's will always go with you.

I don't disagree that drafting in this country is rubbish, the issue is the drafting so bad to get a dismiss. That's another issue.

I do find it funny that the LA gets the names if its own street wrong, when very good high quality maps are available from the OS.

rcdk1

Victor wrote: »

You only need to ask the city and county councils as they are the roads authorities. Town and borough councils have an input, but aren't roads authorities and so can't make speed limit bye-laws.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's useful to know.

It's an example of hit-and-miss, however. I asked Corporate Services in Mayo Co Co about this exact point, and they told me that town councils are roads authorities.

Town Councils are split into two categories:

1. those that were former Urban District Councils and
2. those that were former Town Commissioners,

with the UDCs having more power.

As regards Roads Authorities:

• NRA: Road Authority for Tolled National Roads
• City Councils: Roads Authority for all National, Regional and Local Roads in their administrative area.
• County Councils: Roads Authority for National, Regional and Local Roads within their administrative area. This includes roads within the administrative areas of Town Councils which were formerly Town Commissioners but excludes Local roads in the administrative area of Town Councils which were former UDCs.
• Town Council - Former UDC: Roads Authority for Local Roads in their administrative area.
• Town Council - Former Town Commissioners: No powers as a Roads Authority

Iwannahurl

Victor wrote: »

When I asked the reception in the council office for a copy of the former bye-laws, I was told "Oh, you can only look at them here, you can't take them with you!". There was nearly a public order incident. :mad:

Well, there you go.

My impression is that the information I require is rather closely guarded and/or somewhat obscure in some cases.

Mind you, that might be because I asked either the wrong person or the wrong questions. So far I have only asked a few local authorities in an opportunistic fashion, eg I was prompted to contact them after a spokesperson mentioned speed limits or road safety in the media.

I'm at the 'pilot' stage currently. My intention is to formally contact every road authority once I am sure of what I'm looking for and which office (eg Corporate Services).

Victor wrote: »

ResearchWill, the whole council bye-law situation is one of farce. The bye-laws are written by (a) people who have no legal training, but with technical skills or (b) people who have legal training, but no technical skills. Neither group know how to use a spell checker or how to proof-read generally.

I made a detailed submission on the latter bye-laws. The maps and the bye-laws don't agree - various streets are missing or have their names spelled wrong, e.g there is no "Princess Street" in Cork - there is a "Princes Street". Also "Main carriageways of the South Ring Road (N25) from the City Boundary at the Southern Portal of the Jack Lynch Tunnel southwards for a distance of 300 metres. " - but the portal is near, not at the city boundary - what happens the bit in between?

I'm aware that you have done a lot of detailed and painstaking work on the review of speed limits. Clearly that subject matter becomes a very complex and ramified issue when road types, cartography and the wording of bye-laws are taken into consideration.

Luckily my research interest is much narrower. I just want to know whether (a) 30 km/h Special Speed Limits have been implemented by any given road authority and, if possible, (b) whether Special Speed Limits of any sort have been applied around schools.

Alex Salmon

Could you not FOI the DOT for them?

Iwannahurl

rcdk1 wrote: »

Town Councils are split into two categories:

1. those that were former Urban District Councils and
2. those that were former Town Commissioners,

with the UDCs having more power.

As regards Roads Authorities:

• NRA: Road Authority for Tolled National Roads
• City Councils: Roads Authority for all National, Regional and Local Roads in their administrative area.
• County Councils: Roads Authority for National, Regional and Local Roads within their administrative area. This includes roads within the administrative areas of Town Councils which were formerly Town Commissioners but excludes Local roads in the administrative area of Town Councils which were former UDCs.
• Town Council - Former UDC: Roads Authority for Local Roads in their administrative area.
• Town Council - Former Town Commissioners: No powers as a Roads Authority

How do I work out which roads authorities are former UDCs?

Iwannahurl

Alex Salmon wrote: »

Could you not FOI the DOT for them?

Firstly, FoI would not be my initial approach.

Secondly, the DoT does not collate this information. See Written Answer #740 on this Oireachtas webpage.

Alex Salmon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Councils_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

That gives you the former status of the towns as either commissioners or UDCs.

jd

rcdk1 wrote: »

As regards Roads Authorities:

• NRA: Road Authority for Tolled National Roads
• City Councils: Roads Authority for all National, Regional and Local Roads in their administrative area.
• County Councils: Roads Authority for National, Regional and Local Roads within their administrative area. This includes roads within the administrative areas of Town Councils which were formerly Town Commissioners but excludes Local roads in the administrative area of Town Councils which were former UDCs.
• Town Council - Former UDC: Roads Authority for Local Roads in their administrative area.
• Town Council - Former Town Commissioners: No powers as a Roads Authority

And Borough Councils ?

Victor

rcdk1 wrote: »

Town Councils are split into two categories:

1. those that were former Urban District Councils and
2. those that were former Town Commissioners,

with the UDCs having more power.

As regards Roads Authorities:

• NRA: Road Authority for Tolled National Roads
• City Councils: Roads Authority for all National, Regional and Local Roads in their administrative area.
• County Councils: Roads Authority for National, Regional and Local Roads within their administrative area. This includes roads within the administrative areas of Town Councils which were formerly Town Commissioners but excludes Local roads in the administrative area of Town Councils which were former UDCs.
• Town Council - Former UDC: Roads Authority for Local Roads in their administrative area.
• Town Council - Former Town Commissioners: No powers as a Roads Authority

If I'm right, county councils took over all the roads functions from town councils - possibly under the Local Government Act 2001. Regardless town and borough councils can't set speed limits in the Road Traffic Act 2004.

nuac

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How do I work out which roads authorities are former UDCs?

That may be in one of the schedules to the 2001 LGA.

\otherwise check Street Local Govt

Iwannahurl

Victor wrote: »

If I'm right, county councils took over all the roads functions from town councils - possibly under the Local Government Act 2001. Regardless town and borough councils can't set speed limits in the Road Traffic Act 2004.

Aha. I had no idea, but it didn't occur to me to have a detailed look at the 2004 Act. I'm a bit shlow, obviously.

Now that you mention it, here's what it says:

9.—(1) A county council or a city council may make bye-laws (“special speed limit bye-laws”) specifying in respect of any specified public road or specified part of a public road or specified carriageway or lane of a public road within its administrative area the speed limit (“special speed limit”) which shall be the speed limit on that road or those roads for mechanically propelled vehicles.

[...]

(3) Before making special speed limit bye-laws a county council or city council shall give notice to—

(a) the council of any borough or town in the administrative county concerned of any provision in the proposed bye-laws relating to roads in their respective administrative areas, and

(b) the Commissioner, and

shall consider any representations made in writing by any such council or the Commissioner where they are received within the period (not being less than one month after the date of service of the notice) specified in the notice.

Those references to the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and to representations made in writing are very interesting, IMO.

Where 30 km/h special speed limits have not been applied since the 2004 Act was introduced, two (or more) scenarios are suggested, IMO:

1. The County or City Council did not attempt to introduce a 30 km/h special speed limit anywhere in its administrative area, or

2. The County or City Council did seek to introduce such a bye-law, but it was not proceeded with following representations made by the Commissioner or town/borough council.

My search has been simplified by the fact that I only have to contact City and County Councils, and complicated (though made potentially more intriguing) by the possibility that in some areas 30 km/h special speed limits were proposed but subsequently rejected.

EDIT: Assuming that the Commissioner was duly notified in all cases where a City or County Council proposed a 30 km/h special speed limit, then AGS is a potential One Stop Shop in terms of ascertaining which of the relevant Authorities sought to introduce such bye-laws.

Iwannahurl

Update.

Apparently the Garda Commissioner does not collate information regarding proposed special speed limits.

Many functions of the Commissioner are delegated to Divisional level, so I'm back again to the position of having to contact all local offices (Councils and/or AGS).





Further update. Just spoke to someone in Cork City Divisional HQ. The person I spoke to:

• had no knowledge of 30 km/h bye-laws in Cork City
• disagreed with the idea because there have not been enough "speed-related" serious crashes to justify it
• thought a 30 km/h speed limit would be inadvisable because motorists would get "irate"
• believed that 30 km/h speed limits cause traffic congestion
• expressed the view that 30 km/h speed limits would be highly unpopular because motorists think there are "too many rules".

God help us every one.

Alex Salmon

It is no wonder that determined defendants can beat the rap if the Gardaí are put to full proof.

ResearchWill

Alex Salmon wrote: »

It is no wonder that determined defendants can beat the rap if the Gardaí are put to full proof.

I assume you don't mean people should be convicted on anything less than full proof.

Kevin3

Alex Salmon wrote: »

It is no wonder that determined defendants can beat the rap if the Gardaí are put to full proof.

Isn't the onus on the defendant to prove the speed limit on the sign isn't the legislated limit since the Road Traffic Act 2010 Section 76?

JackieBurke

They have every angle covered.

Victor

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Local Authorities have a statutory role and powers in the creation, implementation and enforcement of bye-laws in different areas of policy.

I believe these law-making powers are referred to as Reserved Functions.

My query is this: once a Local Authority has enacted bye-laws, are these listed in the local equivalent of the Statute Book?

How does a citizen access the list of bye-laws, if such exists?

Is there any central database or other single source of such information?

There is a new website: http://www.speedlimits.ie/ - listing not complete yet.

Carawaystick

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Update.

Apparently the Garda Commissioner does not collate information regarding proposed special speed limits.

I'd make an AIE request to Noirin.
If she doesn't have the information, either it wasn't sent to her and so is not valid, or she is not keeping environmental information correctly, which is unlawful.

nuac

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How do I work out which roads authorities are former UDCs?

? Schedule with 2001 Act

Victor

nuac wrote: »

? Schedule with 2001 Act

Yes, but in the context of speed limits, it's irrelevant, as towns have been abolished and were never able to set speed limits on public roads anyway.