Private Clamping Ireland

flyweight

Hi Guys,

I have some questions regarding the legality of private clamping in ireland.
Sorry for the long winded post, and I hope am posting in the correct forum.

I live in a private apartment complex in Dublin and I have leaseholding on the apartment and one of the parking spaces.

The management company has employed a third party clamping company to enforce clamping on any cars that do not display a sticker obtained from the management company irrelevant of where they are parked. I have not been involved whatsoever in employing the clamping company and I do no like the clamping system.

A few days ago my tenant parked his car in my parking space for a few hours without a sticker and got clamped with an initial removal fine of 120 EUR which has since increased to over 300 EUR.

I contacted the management company and asked them could they help me get the clamp released given that it was my tenant that was parked in my own space and they said that I would have to appeal with the clamping company. I have talked to the clamping company and advised them they where clamping on a parking space that I have a lease holding for and that they had not got my permission to clamp, and they where very rude and told me that they have an agreement with the management company and that my tenant would have to pay to get the clamp removed. I made it clear to them that I have a lease agreement on the parking space and that I wanted the clamp removed, but they still would not remove it.

I got some advice form a barrister who stated the following:

"At the outset in order to be able to clamp on private property there must be in place clear notices to the effect that clamping is occurring and on what basis. Otherwise any such clamping is unlawful. If this is the case, remove the clamp yourself. Secondly, clamping can only take place where the person is parked illegally. Where you own or lease the apartment, then you are not parking illegally. This is the case with your tenant and there is no lawful basis for the clamping, even if there is no sticker displayed. The management company have acted in a very high-handed manner and again you should simply remove the clamp from your tenant's car. No fee is due where the person is parked there legally. The power to clamp on private property is very limited in Ireland and a management company has only a limited right to clamp on someone else's property which the car parking space is. It matters not that you only have a lease. Provided someone is authorised to park there, even a visitor, the management company has no power in law to clamp unless it can be shown to be illegal parking and then only for the proper governance of the complex."

I also received some advice from some friend that are guards. They said they had handled similar cases where private clampers where involved and the clamps where forcefully removed and that in each case they could not charge the car owner as to was no law in place with regard to removal of private clamps.

Also my understanding is that my tenant also has a case against them clamping his car given that private clamping in Rep. Of Ireland is is illegal under Section 113 the Road Traffic Act 1961 as amended by the Road Traffic Act (Amendment) 1984 (the amendment means that 113 does no solely apply to public places).

Given this advice, the clamp has now been removed using the angle grinder approach.

So my question is given that the clamped on my parking space, and the agreement between the clampers and management company does not overpower my rights as the lease holder, can I sue the clamping company for ignoring my request to remove the clamp, and enforce them not to clamp on my land again and extort money from my tenant?

Any good feedback would be appreciated.

dahamsta

Any good feedback would be appreciated.

Search the forum before posting, would be my feedback.

Paulw

The management company own the space, you only have exclusive use of it. So, the management company can bring in rules. You can't set a condition against the rules of the management company.

It's your fault you didn't give your tenant his parking permit, so you should pay the cost.

If you don't attend your management company AGM, then you remove yourself from the decision making events that run the development. That is your choice. By not attending, this does not give you the right to disagree with the decisions made.

shooter88

dahamsta wrote: »

Search the forum before posting, would be my feedback.

Real good way to encourage people to use this site.it could take ages to read every topic relating to this and they are prob filled with people like you who post pointless comments not relating to the topic..

ColinJennings

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/march2011.pdf
See the article on p30. Basically it says private clamping has no legal basis in Ireland and unless the cost charged for removing the clamp is linked to the expense incurred in providing the service to remove the clamp, the clamp would amount to retaining another’s chattel (personal property) without lawful authority and could give rise to a claims in tort for detinue (you took my stuff, give it back) or trover (you took my stuff, I want the value of what you took).

It is unclear whether under your lease (as noone ever owns the freehold to an apartment, just a long lease) you gave the management company, and therefore their agents the clampers, lawful authority to clamp unauthorised vehicles. It would depend on the nature of the agreement and whether you have a defined space and whether there are occasions where others can park in that space.

I see no reason why you couldn't claim the cost of hiring the angle grinder, paying for taxis to get around etc under negligence or nuisance... however you would be suing the management company, which is you suing yourself and your neighbours. Any victory you achieve will come from the pockets of you and your neighbours. And it wont' be for an amount worth pissing off all the other people in the apartment complex.

dahamsta

shooter88 wrote: »

Real good way to encourage people to use this site.it could take ages to read every topic relating to this and they are prob filled with people like you who post pointless comments not relating to the topic..

There have been at least 2 threads with 100% identical scenarios in the past month or so. 100%, zero variation. Searching for the word clamping finds them in seconds. Is this too complicated for you, or the OP? Typing a word into the search box at the top of the page?

This forum is incredibly repetitive as it is, posting queries for identical stuff is just plain lazy. Or would you like me to take this thread off into motor-tax-on-fuel or wheres-the-taking-my-car-off-the-road-form so we can go full circle into repetitiveness for the thousandth time?

Anan1

shooter88 wrote: »

Real good way to encourage people to use this site.it could take ages to read every topic relating to this and they are prob filled with people like you who post pointless comments not relating to the topic..

Reading is a lot quicker than typing. Like dahamsta said, it's been discussed in depth and it's all just a couple of clicks away.

homingbird

CUT THE CLAMP OFF . Tell them their was no clamp on your car when you came out to it end of story.

recyclebin

As flyweight has already got legal advice from a barrister there is not much more that be added. Any feedback you will get here will be personal opionions not based on fact and it will just lead to a row like other clamping threads.

Clamping is a very touchy subject on this forum.

mullingar

flyweight wrote: »

Any good feedback would be appreciated.

Feedback,

Let me think,


BRAVO........


You did it correctly and you also went to the trouble of seeking legal advice.

Note to self: /Need to buy a 12V angle grinder that I can hard-wire a set of leads to the car battery/

shooter88

dahamsta wrote: »

There have been at least 2 threads with 100% identical scenarios in the past month or so. 100%, zero variation. Searching for the word clamping finds them in seconds. Is this too complicated for you, or the OP? Typing a word into the search box at the top of the page?

This forum is incredibly repetitive as it is, posting queries for identical stuff is just plain lazy. Or would you like me to take this thread off into motor-tax-on-fuel or wheres-the-taking-my-car-off-the-road-form so we can go full circle into repetitiveness for the thousandth time?

I dono what your having a go at me for I didn't post the thread.
Real mature trying to insult peoples intelligence I bet your a real nice guy..
If you don't like what people post why not go to a different site where you are asked nothing..
It's sad to see people like you with your smart comments ruining the op topic...key board warrior

shooter88

Anan1 wrote: »

Reading is a lot quicker than typing. Like dahamsta said, it's been discussed in depth and it's all just a couple of clicks away.

They don't relate to the op question or situation I suggest you read his full comment

flyweight

shooter88 wrote: »

Real good way to encourage people to use this site.it could take ages to read every topic relating to this and they are prob filled with people like you who post pointless comments not relating to the topic..

Yes I have searched through the forums already, and although there are many topics on the subject, my case seems different than most, and as you know law changes all the time, so old posts may not be relevant. Thanks

BigEejit

As was mentioned, dispose of the clamp. When clampers start jumping up and down and threatening all sorts, just tell them that when you came down in the morning it was gone.

They will not under any circumstances bring it to court because the law is so grey on the subject (just witness the quantity of arguments on this forum) and the risk of losing their case and setting precedent is very high.

Dont give the feckers a bean.

flyweight

Paulw wrote: »

The management company own the space, you only have exclusive use of it. So, the management company can bring in rules. You can't set a condition against the rules of the management company.

It's your fault you didn't give your tenant his parking permit, so you should pay the cost.

If you don't attend your management company AGM, then you remove yourself from the decision making events that run the development. That is your choice. By not attending, this does not give you the right to disagree with the decisions made.

Thanks for the reply.

I did ask the management company to help me, but they did nothing. I own the lease on the particular parking space (they own the common area), so they have no power in law to clamp my tentant using a third party company to extort money from him. Just because the the management company made some decisions does not make the whole issue of private clamping law or my rights with regards to my property change.

Paulw

flyweight wrote: »

I did ask the management company to help me, but they did nothing. I own the lease on the particular parking space (they own the common area), so they have no power in law to clamp my tentant using a third party company to extort money from him. Just because the the management company made some decisions does not make the whole issue of private clamping law or my rights with regards to my property change.

Ignoring the clamping issue, does your lease documents show your space on a map, or does it just specify a space is allocated to you?

The management company have the right to move your space (if it's not specified on a map), and to control how the space is used. While you own the lease, they can still regulate the use of it. The same as they control the properties (external), where you only have a lease on the property. It is not your property. You only have a lease on it.

Your legal advice should have clarified this for you.

djimi

The issue is between you and the management company. Why does your tenant not have a parking permit? Are the management company withholding the permit due to unpaid management fees or something like that (usually the reason why no permit is given)?

You can bitch and moan about the clamping company, but at the day they employed by the management company, and they are only acting on their instruction to clamp any car that is not displaying a permit. As your tenant was not displaying a permit, its understandable that they got clamped. The real issue is why your tenant does not have a permit.

flyweight

Paulw wrote: »

Ignoring the clamping issue, does your lease documents show your space on a map, or does it just specify a space is allocated to you?

The management company have the right to move your space (if it's not specified on a map), and to control how the space is used. While you own the lease, they can still regulate the use of it. The same as they control the properties (external), where you only have a lease on the property. It is not your property. You only have a lease on it.

Your legal advice should have clarified this for you.

Yes there is a map showing may space.

flyweight

djimi wrote: »

The issue is between you and the management company. Why does your tenant not have a parking permit? Are the management company withholding the permit due to unpaid management fees or something like that (usually the reason why no permit is given)?

You can bitch and moan about the clamping company, but at the day they employed by the management company, and they are only acting on their instruction to clamp any car that is not displaying a permit. As your tenant was not displaying a permit, its understandable that they got clamped. The real issue is why your tenant does not have a permit.

He only got the car, and only parked for a few minutes without a sticker, on my space thinking it was ok to park on my space. He is an old man and the clamping company is sending him letters trying to get ridiculous amounts of money out of him. I am not moaning I removed the clamp on the advice of AGS and a barrister, to protect my rights on my space, his car and him from the stress that this cowboy clamping company put on him. It is not on, even the public clampers do not charge as much as these.

username123

flyweight wrote: »

He only got the car, and only parked for a few minutes without a sticker, on my space thinking it was ok to park on my space. He is an old man and the clamping company is sending him letters trying to get ridiculous amounts of money out of him. I am not moaning I removed the clamp on the advice of AGS and a barrister, to protect my rights on my space, his car and him from the stress that this cowboy clamping company put on him. It is not on, even the public clampers do not charge as much as these.

How did the clamping company get his address? My understanding is that they do not have access to motorists details through the car reg or tax details as they are only a private company (additionally if it was a new car it probably wasnt registered in his name?).

I dont understand how they have his address to write threatening letters to him? Simply sent the letters back "not known at this address".

flyweight

username123 wrote: »

How did the clamping company get his address? My understanding is that they do not have access to motorists details through the car reg or tax details as they are only a private company (additionally if it was a new car it probably wasnt registered in his name?).

I dont understand how they have his address to write threatening letters to him? Simply sent the letters back "not known at this address".

I have no idea. I will have to check with him on that.

djimi

flyweight wrote: »

He only got the car, and only parked for a few minutes without a sticker, on my space thinking it was ok to park on my space. He is an old man and the clamping company is sending him letters trying to get ridiculous amounts of money out of him. I am not moaning I removed the clamp on the advice of AGS and a barrister, to protect my rights on my space, his car and him from the stress that this cowboy clamping company put on him. It is not on, even the public clampers do not charge as much as these.

The problem that you face is that your rights to your parking space now include the caveat that the car parked in said space must have a valid parking permit on display. The problem is not with the "cowboy clamping company"; its with the fact that management company have instructed the clamping company to clamp any car that was not displaying a valid permit. The tenant should have the parking permit, regardless of whether or not they own a car. This issue is on you as the leaseholder and landlord, and is between you and the management company.

flyweight

djimi wrote: »

The problem that you face is that your rights to your parking space now include the caveat that the car parked in said space must have a valid parking permit on display. The problem is not with the "cowboy clamping company"; its with the fact that management company have instructed the clamping company to clamp any car that was not displaying a valid permit. The tenant should have the parking permit, regardless of whether or not they own a car. This issue is on you as the leaseholder and landlord, and is between you and the management company.

Yes the management company have acted in a very high handed manner (as the barrister said),. There is also the issue of the Road Traffic Act 1961 section 113, and the corresponding 1984 amendment, which makes interfering with his vehicle illegal, as well as arbitrary fines the are demanding. I can not endorse illegal behaviour on the part of my management company, especially since he did nothing illegal himself. Its messy business but I will get more legal advice and resolve via the courts if necessary.

djimi

I wish you the best of luck; its about time someone took it to the courts (to the best of my knowledge noone has done so yet, despite all the talk about clamping).

Just bear in mind one thing; as a leaseholder you are the management company...

Scortho

djimi wrote: »

The problem that you face is that your rights to your parking space now include the caveat that the car parked in said space must have a valid parking permit on display. The problem is not with the "cowboy clamping company"; its with the fact that management company have instructed the clamping company to clamp any car that was not displaying a valid permit. The tenant should have the parking permit, regardless of whether or not they own a car. This issue is on you as the leaseholder and landlord, and is between you and the management company.

The only people allowed clamp are those appointed by the council.
Ncps etc have no legal standing when it comes to clamping. Yes the management co. can appoint a clamping company. However as its private property (not main road) the champers have no legal standing to clamp his car.
Now the management company can insist that a permit is displayed. However they can't clamp a car on private property as a result of the car having no sticker.

If the clamping company come looking for the clamp, inform them that there is a storage fee = to that of the clamp removal charged by the company.

From the road traffic act
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec113

113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing an offence under this section, he may arrest the person without warrant.

(4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

Paulw

flyweight wrote: »

I can not endorse illegal behaviour on the part of my management company, especially since he did nothing illegal himself. Its messy business but I will get more legal advice and resolve via the courts if necessary.

Don't forget to also mention your own illegal behavious - criminal damage, by cutting the clamp.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Clamping on private property is a massive grey area in law. Until someone takes a case to court, it will continue to be so.

Simple facts - your management company brought in clamping enforcement of parking. Permits were issues to unit owners who paid their management fees. All vehicles with a permit displayed are not clamped. Vehicles parked in any space without a permit will be clamped. Your tenant parked a vehicle without a permit on display. The vehicle was clamped.

Have I missed anything?

Paulw

Scortho wrote: »

The only people allowed clamp are those appointed by the council.
Ncps etc have no legal standing when it comes to clamping. Yes the management co. can appoint a clamping company. However as its private property (not main road) the champers have no legal standing to clamp his car.
Now the management company can insist that a permit is displayed. However they can't clamp a car on private property as a result of the car having no sticker.

If the clamping company come looking for the clamp, inform them that there is a storage fee = to that of the clamp removal charged by the company.

From the road traffic act
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec113

113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing an offence under this section, he may arrest the person without warrant.

(4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

Next time you are clamped on private property, call the Gardai and see what they say.

99 times out of 100 they will say that it is a civil matter and they will not respond.

BigEejit

Paulw wrote: »

Have I missed anything?

Yeah, the clamp fairies came during the night, took the clamp and left a euro under a pillow

flyweight

djimi wrote: »

I wish you the best of luck; its about time someone took it to the courts (to the best of my knowledge noone has done so yet, despite all the talk about clamping).

Just bear in mind one thing; as a leaseholder you are the management company...

Thanks for your feedback. Private clamping was explicitly and completely banned in England last year, so lets hope us Irish do the same.

djimi

Scortho wrote: »

The only people allowed clamp are those appointed by the council.
Ncps etc have no legal standing when it comes to clamping. Yes the management co. can appoint a clamping company. However as its private property (not main road) the champers have no legal standing to clamp his car.
Now the management company can insist that a permit is displayed. However they can't clamp a car on private property as a result of the car having no sticker.

If the clamping company come looking for the clamp, inform them that there is a storage fee = to that of the clamp removal charged by the company.

From the road traffic act
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec113

113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing an offence under this section, he may arrest the person without warrant.

(4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

People quote this legislation all the time, but the reality is that clamping has not been outlawed in this country, otherwise clamping companies would not be operating. You can moan about it until you are blue in the face; it doesnt change the fact that the Gardai nor the courts seem in any way interested in acting against private clamping.

It would be wonderful if someone would take this issue through the courts so that a ruling can be made. If youre not prepared to do this then what is the point in quoting pointless legislation that in reality seems to mean nothing? Bottom line is that if you dont want to be clamped then dont park outside the rules in an area where private clamping operates.

flyweight

Paulw wrote: »

Don't forget to also mention your own illegal behavious - criminal damage, by cutting the clamp.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Clamping on private property is a massive grey area in law. Until someone takes a case to court, it will continue to be so.

Simple facts - your management company brought in clamping enforcement of parking. Permits were issues to unit owners who paid their management fees. All vehicles with a permit displayed are not clamped. Vehicles parked in any space without a permit will be clamped. Your tenant parked a vehicle without a permit on display. The vehicle was clamped.

Have I missed anything?

Cutting the clamp when it was left on a car for purposes of freeing the car is not regarded as criminal damage, as the clampers have attached the clamp to the car and walked away. I done my homework on this too and talked to some AGS who have handled some of these cases. In each case the Police have been unable to find it to be criminal damage.

flyweight

Scortho wrote: »

The only people allowed clamp are those appointed by the council.
Ncps etc have no legal standing when it comes to clamping. Yes the management co. can appoint a clamping company. However as its private property (not main road) the champers have no legal standing to clamp his car.
Now the management company can insist that a permit is displayed. However they can't clamp a car on private property as a result of the car having no sticker.

If the clamping company come looking for the clamp, inform them that there is a storage fee = to that of the clamp removal charged by the company.

From the road traffic act
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec113

113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing an offence under this section, he may arrest the person without warrant.

(4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

Yes I believe this law applies. Also there was an amendment made to 113 by the Road Traffic (Amendent) Act 1984 which removes the "in a public place" part of this which means it applies to private property too.

djimi

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

On that piece of legislation, this is the part where I believe that it may fall down. The clamping company is acting on the instruction of the management company, ie the lawful owner of the parking space. Therefore from what I can see the clamping company has reasonable grounds (ie an agreement in place with said management company) to claim that they are acting with lawful authority.

flyweight

djimi wrote: »

On that piece of legislation, this is the part where I believe that it may fall down. The clamping company is acting on the instruction of the management company, ie the lawful owner of the parking space. Therefore from what I can see the clamping company has reasonable grounds (ie an agreement in place with said management company) to claim that they are acting with lawful authority.

Yes that would be up to a judge to decide. I can't see any clamping company risking it though as it could set precedence.

glic71rods46t0

dahamsta wrote: »

There have been at least 2 threads with 100% identical scenarios in the past month or so. 100%, zero variation. Searching for the word clamping finds them in seconds. Is this too complicated for you, or the OP? Typing a word into the search box at the top of the page?

This forum is incredibly repetitive as it is, posting queries for identical stuff is just plain lazy. Or would you like me to take this thread off into motor-tax-on-fuel or wheres-the-taking-my-car-off-the-road-form so we can go full circle into repetitiveness for the thousandth time?

Obviously the other threads were not 100% identical - thats a lazy way to back up your point. The OP brought a well researched position to the debate unlike you. I have two tips for you to improve your reading pleasure on boards:
1. If you don't like reading clamping related threads then don't read a thread titled "Private Clamping Ireland" and expect anything other than a discussion on clamping. Why you feel the need to comment disparagingly to the OP venting your obvious annoyance at "yet another" clamping thread when all you had to do was ignore the thread is hilarious
2. If you find the whole motors section repetitive then why not vary your reading and join discussions on other topics outside of motors. Try conspiracy theories ======> (you would be amazed at the originality of some of the threads)

166man

That piece of legislation is quoted all the time. If you read it it says that " without reasonable cause or lawful authority". The management company own the land, so if they give the authority or reasonable cause to the clamping company then I fail to see where its illegal.

If you enter that car park assuming appropriate signage is in place than you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of parking there. Without a permit you are liable to clamping IMO.

username123

166man wrote: »

That piece of legislation is quoted all the time. If you read it it says that " without reasonable cause or lawful authority". The management company own the land, so if they give the authority or reasonable cause to the clamping company then I fail to see where its illegal.

If you enter that car park assuming appropriate signage is in place than you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of parking there. Without a permit you are liable to clamping IMO.

It is not reasonable to prevent someone from using their car unless they pay an extortionate fee to release it, over a parking offence. It is this point that caused clamping to be outlawed in the UK. 120 euro is an extortionate amount of money to demand to free someones vehicle because they parked somewhere they shouldnt. In addition there is no independent appeals process such as with council clampers. So no, IMO, it is unreasonable.

flyweight

166man wrote: »

That piece of legislation is quoted all the time. If you read it it says that " without reasonable cause or lawful authority". The management company own the land, so if they give the authority or reasonable cause to the clamping company then I fail to see where its illegal.

If you enter that car park assuming appropriate signage is in place than you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of parking there. Without a permit you are liable to clamping IMO.

I own the lease on the land. And I asked them to remove it, informing them of that. Therefore it legal for me or my tenent to park there. The Management company cannot legally disable mine or my tenants car and charge arbitrary amount of money. Again my barrister made this very clear. How much money are they legally allowed to charge for clamp removal if all this is legal. I assume they could charge 10,000 EUR if they wanted? So this leads to another argument of how much should be charged for clamp removal? The cowboys are a money making racket, they have no rights to clamp or charge on my leasholded parking space.

flyweight

username123 wrote: »

It is not reasonable to prevent someone from using their car unless they pay an extortionate fee to release it, over a parking offence. It is this point that caused clamping to be outlawed in the UK. 120 euro is an extortionate amount of money to demand to free someones vehicle because they parked somewhere they shouldnt. In addition there is no independent appeals process such as with council clampers. So no, IMO, it is unreasonable.

I agree, if my tenant need to use the car for an emergency situation, he should not have to pay 1000's to free it first. And these cowboys do charge a lot more than 120 euro if you don't pay them straight away. So a potential extortion case here too. These clampers have very little legal basis from what I have researched.

djimi

username123 wrote: »

It is not reasonable to prevent someone from using their car unless they pay an extortionate fee to release it, over a parking offence. It is this point that caused clamping to be outlawed in the UK. 120 euro is an extortionate amount of money to demand to free someones vehicle because they parked somewhere they shouldnt. In addition there is no independent appeals process such as with council clampers. So no, IMO, it is unreasonable.

That legislation says nothing about what is or is not reasonable in terms of release criteria; it simply says that it is a defense to say that that the company believed that it was acting on lawful authority, which in this case I believe the clamping company is quite entitled to say.

The actual process of clamping in this country is not at all reasonable (as you say, high release charges and no independant appeals process), but that is not covered in the often quoted piece of legislation. Im not aware of anything that legislates how a clamping company should or should not operate.

djimi

flyweight wrote: »

I own the lease on the land. And I asked them to remove it, informing them of that. Therefore it legal for me or my tenent to park there. The Management company cannot legally disable mine or my tenants car and charge arbitrary amount of money. Again my barrister made this very clear. How much money are they legally allowed to charge for clamp removal if all this is legal. I assume they could charge 10,000 EUR if they wanted? So this leads to another argument of how much should be charged for clamp removal? The cowboys are a money making racket, they have no rights to clamp or charge on my leasholded parking space.

Has yout barrister gone through your lease with a fine tooth comb to backup the claims that he is making to you?

flyweight

djimi wrote: »

Has yout barrister gone through your lease with a fine tooth comb to backup the claims that he is making to you?

Yes, I got it a copy of it from my mortgage company, and he has reviewed it.

I believe my tenant could also sue me and/or the management company (if he wanted to persue it) for interfering with his vehicle and charging arbitrary fees (extorsion). This is a legal minefield, so I think the clamp is better off than on.

djimi

I dont know if the tenant could sue you or the management company, but I can well imagine that if the parking space is explicitely specified in their lease then they would have good grounds to get the lease terminated on the grounds that they are not getting what they pay rent for.

flyweight

djimi wrote: »

Has yout barrister gone through your lease with a fine tooth comb to backup the claims that he is making to you?

Thanks for all you input. You are making intelligent arguments.

jd

flyweight wrote: »

Yes, I got it a copy of it from my mortgage company, and he has reviewed it.

Is this your barrister
http://www.justanswer.com/ireland-law/7kxwm-live-private-apartment-complex-dublin.html

flyweight

jd wrote: »

Is this your barrister
http://www.justanswer.com/ireland-law/7kxwm-live-private-apartment-complex-dublin.html

Yes ha ha smart ass

I am currently talking to my solicitor from whom I bought the apartment through.

jd

Where I live cars aren't normally clamped in reserved spaces. If someone parks in your space you can call the clampers. They will then check the permit on the car(if any) before clamping. Seems a bit strange. You live with your tenant? I presume you don't have a car if he is using the space.

flyweight

jd wrote: »

Where I live cars aren't normally clamped in reserved spaces. If someone parks in your space you can call the clampers. They will then check the permit on the car(if any) before clamping. Seems a bit strange. You live with your tenant? I presume you don't have a car if he is using the space.

I don;t live with him, it a sticker based system, he only got the car recently and did not display a sticker. Hes an old man and thought it was ok to park on my space, before the clampers went wild on him.

166man

username123 wrote: »

It is not reasonable to prevent someone from using their car unless they pay an extortionate fee to release it, over a parking offence. It is this point that caused clamping to be outlawed in the UK. 120 euro is an extortionate amount of money to demand to free someones vehicle because they parked somewhere they shouldnt. In addition there is no independent appeals process such as with council clampers. So no, IMO, it is unreasonable.

flyweight wrote: »

I own the lease on the land. And I asked them to remove it, informing them of that. Therefore it legal for me or my tenent to park there. The Management company cannot legally disable mine or my tenants car and charge arbitrary amount of money. Again my barrister made this very clear. How much money are they legally allowed to charge for clamp removal if all this is legal. I assume they could charge 10,000 EUR if they wanted? So this leads to another argument of how much should be charged for clamp removal? The cowboys are a money making racket, they have no rights to clamp or charge on my leasholded parking space.

What they charge is totally irrelavent unless you're pursuing an extortion case which could be valid but that's aside from the point. I'm talking of the legality of the situation. Everyone seems to be quoting this piece of legislation as if it's the be all and end all. The management company give the authority to that third party company to prevent outsiders trying to park in your space. Your tenant didn't have a permit which is necessary as stated by the Mgmt Company so NCPS or whoever it was were entitled to clamp IMO.

I also ask you this OP, if some other outsider had come in and parked in your space that you have leased I'm sure you'd have no problem with clampers coming along and clamping them.

Also the management company do not charge you, it's the third party company who do and I reckon they are paid annually by the Mgmt company and keep all the clamping release fee's.

Alex Salmon

It is all well and good with the high horsers telling someone to take a case to court to settle the law once and for all. One small problem, the clampers always settle straight away and stop any cases getting to trial. They are too afraid to allow a case get to trial.

If the clampers were 100% sure of their position they would allow a judge to rule on the matter. The fact that they won't face a judge speaks volumes.

Scortho

djimi wrote: »

People quote this legislation all the time, but the reality is that clamping has not been outlawed in this country, otherwise clamping companies would not be operating. You can moan about it until you are blue in the face; it doesnt change the fact that the Gardai nor the courts seem in any way interested in acting against private clamping.

It would be wonderful if someone would take this issue through the courts so that a ruling can be made. If youre not prepared to do this then what is the point in quoting pointless legislation that in reality seems to mean nothing? Bottom line is that if you dont want to be clamped then dont park outside the rules in an area where private clamping operates.

There have been numerous threads on here where people have cut the lock on the clamp. None have gone to court. As mentioned already they have to much too lose taking someone to court over it. If they were to lose, and there is a good chance that they would as they have to be appointed by the lcoal authority, be a traffic warden or a member of AGS.

Would Black v Carmichael have any effect on a ruling here?

While the legislation remains in limbo in Ireland, no clamping company will take you to court over it. They know full well that most people wont remove the clamp and will just pay up.

And if I am ever clamped on private property I will test it. Unless Veradker takes the finger out and clarifies what the situation is in relation to clamping on private property in the mean time.