Can someone explain this?

Arpa

I'm by no menas a newcomer to Rugby having gone to a rugby playing school and growing up with it most of my formative years but some things still stump me...

Sorry if it's been done before but...

I used to hear "Touch, pause, engage", at the scrum...now it's "Crouch, touch, set"....why? What has happened to change this around? In fact I remeber when there wasn't even a directive from the ref...you just went for it. Also is the scrum really a scrum anymore? When I watched the Internationals today I just watched the number 9 put the ball into the feet of his own team. Is that allowed? I'm confused. I thought he was meant to put it in on the even...otherwise what's the point of the scrum? Maybe I'm stupid and missing someting but can someone explain?

I think it's good that Rugby has a governing body that makes changes for player safety...but at what cost? I can't keep up with the rules.

Someone enlightened, help me...I'm getting considerably p*ssed off with all the changes in Rugby.

im invisible

Someone read the script like Joey from Friends pause and the rest of the lads didn't have the heart to tell him he f*cked up long pause so they went along with it

gOst

I'm open to correction on this but I believe they changed it from the two syllable "en-gage" to the single syllable "set" as it can be spoken quicker and clearer by the ref. I think the issue was that teams were engaging as the ref was saying the command. By changing it to "set" it removes any ambiguity whether engaging while the ref is speaking qualifies as early engagement.

I've never played so maybe a more enlightened bulk technician (forward) may be able to clarify. When anticipating the hit does the pack just wait for the refs command or do you enage on a predetermined countdown after the "touch" command is given?

jimbomalley

The governing body keep changing the scrum rules to prevent resets and scrum collapses....clearly they're making a balls of it. Next rule being trialled (afaik) is the two front rows to merge first (ie no hit) before the push. As for the scrum half putting the ball in crooked and wherever he wants? Been going on for ages at the top level, no body seems to want to tackle this issue rven though it is still illegal

rrpc

jimbomalley wrote: »

The governing body keep changing the scrum rules to prevent resets and scrum collapses....clearly they're making a balls of it. Next rule being trialled (afaik) is the two front rows to merge first (ie no hit) before the push. As for the scrum half putting the ball in crooked and wherever he wants? Been going on for ages at the top level, no body seems to want to tackle this issue rven though it is still illegal

That's not the worst idea they've had. IMO it's the hit that's messing up most scrums and we have the drive coming on before the ball is in (illegal), the ball going in crooked (illegal), back rows unbinding (illegal) and props stepping out and driving in (illegal) for the refs to get control of without multiple resets going on interminably taking all their attention.

Also I'd like to see ARs taking more of an interest in scrum proceedings as currently they seem to be blind and deaf to what's going on.

jimbomalley

Can I post a link to the rule trials on an external site?? Here it is and if I'm wrong (apologies mods) its a planet rugby article from a couple days back
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8514122,00.html

Clareman

No problem posting links to other sites.

Offside

gOst wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this but I believe they changed it from the two syllable "en-gage" to the single syllable "set" as it can be spoken quicker and clearer by the ref. I think the issue was that teams were engaging as the ref was saying the command. By changing it to "set" it removes any ambiguity whether engaging while the ref is speaking qualifies as early engagement.

I've never played so maybe a more enlightened bulk technician (forward) may be able to clarify. When anticipating the hit does the pack just wait for the refs command or do you enage on a predetermined countdown after the "touch" command is given?

Yeah fairly sure you're right on the en-gage part. Played in a college rugby match over in North Carolina last year where the referee had a novel solution to the problem by dropping the "gage" all together and just having the call as "crouch, touch, EN", sounded weird and you wouldn't have had it over here but pretty much the same idea they have with the set, I was baffled at the time though.

19543261

would part of their reasoning for allowing the ball to go in wonky be to ensure the team with the possession retain the ball. because in practice if it was actually 50/50 it would change play considerably.

if scrums were to lock out more often, would the scrum be a less contestable, longer play piece?

freyners

The 2 big problems, in my opinion, with crouch touch pause engage was the pause call and the word engage

With pause it was completely pointless, it delayed the hit and caused alot of teams to try and anticipate the refs call and led to a lot of early engages. When you have 8 lads with a combined mass of approx 800kg trying to get an edge over a similar set of lads you will take any advantage you can get and the pause was just causing them to wait too long, especially when they are all on a hair trigger waiting to go.

Engage, as mentioned above, is a two syllable word and was a massive problem. Most refs (certainly at my glamourous level of 3rds) would say the hit must come on the second E of engage, i.e when the word has been said. Forwards, being forwards and looking to score and advantage, would totally ignore this and go as soon as the heard the first E. This led to teams going at different times and a lot of refs leaving it go so as to prevent reset/penalty after reset/penalty or else calling early engage on teams even though they had heard engage. It was incredibly frustrating for everyone and I'm amazed that it was not forseen when the calls were made. Set is a short sharp word so there is not interpretation difficulties as there was with engage.

There were other problems too, different refs had widely different timings with the calls and made a mockery of the pause call.

CROUCH

ref waits for both teams to crouch and steady

TOUCH

both teams touch, ref ensures both do and waits 2/3 second

PAUSE

both teams waiting another 2/3 seconds

EN-GAGE

1 team has inevitably gone on the first syllable, leading them to completely stuff the opposite team as they had gone earlier than them or concede a FK or penalty for early engage even though they heard the call. Also you have a combined total mass of 1.5 tonnes waiting between 6-8 seconds after the touch call to hit one another, **** is inevitably going to hit the fan.

Sonics2k

Pretty sure Pause was only brought in a few years back and removed because of the complaints from the Scrum and others.

The 2-3 second pause can seem like a lifetime when you've got a massive amount of weight pushing you down, was causing pain for the players and frankly seemed to cause more collapses.

rje66

Sonics2k wrote: »

Pretty sure Pause was only brought in a few years back and removed because of the complaints from the Scrum and others.

The 2-3 second pause can seem like a lifetime when you've got a massive amount of weight pushing you down, was causing pain for the players and frankly seemed to cause more collapses.

All nonsense

Clareman

rje66 wrote: »

All nonsense

If you want to add to the debate, please do, if you don't, then don't post.

Sonics2k

rje66 wrote: »

All nonsense

If I'm wrong then please feel free to correct me, and show me where.

I'm up for our being corrected, but I am pretty sure the Pause rule wasn't in the game 10+ years ago, and was fairly certain it only came in about 6 or so?

rje66

Sonics2k wrote: »

Pretty sure Pause was only brought in a few years back and removed because of the complaints from the Scrum and others.

The 2-3 second pause can seem like a lifetime when you've got a massive amount of weight pushing you down, was causing pain for the players and frankly seemed to cause more collapses.

slightly mis read your post, pause/engage instead of set. but....

"and removed because of the complaints from the Scrum and others."

no complaints, it was IRB group of ex. and current players and coaches.
"The scrum"????explain !!!
"you've got a massive amount of weight pushing you down, was causing pain for the players " nothing to do with c-t-p-e or c-t-s, just players at elite level arseing about, it dosent happen too much at club/school level:)

C-T-P-E came in 2009

Sonics2k

rje66 wrote: »

slightly mis read your post, pause/engage instead of set. but....

"and removed because of the complaints from the Scrum and others."

no complaints, it was IRB group of ex. and current players and coaches.
"The scrum"????explain !!!
"you've got a massive amount of weight pushing you down, was causing pain for the players " nothing to do with c-t-p-e or c-t-s, just players at elite level arseing about, it dosent happen too much at club/school level:)

C-T-P-E came in 2009

Apologies. It's a bit awkward to type from a phone at times.

By 'the scrum' the i meant the forwards and players in the Scrum.