Credit union / probate question

BailMeOut

Situation is that husband passed away about a month ago. He has a credit union account in his name and a will that leaves everything to his wife. His wife also has a credit union account in her name in same branch.

Does she need to go through probate to get access to his credit union account? Local solicitors want 2 grand to deal with probate process which is a lot to spend on getting access to a relatively small amount of money.

I am going to call the CU on Monday to ask but just checking here over weekend if anyone out there knows what the deal is..

Thanks!

Ken.

Credit union accounts

If the deceased had a credit union account and had completed a valid Nomination Form, when opening the account, nominating someone as next of kin, the proceeds of the account up to a maximum of €23,000 go to the person or persons nominated on the form. They do not form part of the deceased's estate.
The balance of the account forms part of the deceased's estate and is distributed in accordance with succession law.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/money_matters_after_a_death/access_to_money_after_a_death.html

BailMeOut

ken wrote: »

Credit union accounts

If the deceased had a credit union account and had completed a valid Nomination Form, when opening the account, nominating someone as next of kin, the proceeds of the account up to a maximum of €23,000 go to the person or persons nominated on the form. They do not form part of the deceased's estate.
The balance of the account forms part of the deceased's estate and is distributed in accordance with succession law.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/money_matters_after_a_death/access_to_money_after_a_death.html

Thanks Ken,

So she will get the first 23k and rest needs to go into probate?

valleyoftheunos

BailMeOut wrote: »

Thanks Ken,

So she will get the first 23k and rest needs to go into probate?

If the account is nominated to her she will get the first 23K, if its not she'll have to wait.

In certain circumstances it is possible for a solicitor to get financial institutions to release funds to pay for things like funeral expenses before probate.

no matter what A grant of Probate will have to be taken out to allow the executor (I'm presuming that is his wife) to deal with the estate. It isn't necessary to use a solicitor to do this but those who don't sometimes regret that decision as it can be complicated and can sometimes involve an awful lot of work.

coylemj

If the estate is no more complicated than a CU account then I'd say do personal probate and tell the solicitor to take a hike. There is a reasonable amount of legwork and paperwork but it's all documented on the web and the procedure can be followed by anyone who is reasonably well organised.

I believe from previous threads that credit unions are less enthusiastic about nominations these days, probably because they got sick of dealing with angry relatives who stormed in demanding that they get the money in the deceased's account on being informed that someone outside the family was the subject of the nomination.

It's possible for someone to make a will leaving everything to person A but also do a nomination with the CU leaving all their money to person B in which case person B gets all the money (up to 23K) as the nomination under the Credit Union Act 1997 takes precedence over the will in the case of money up to 23K, anything beyond that forms part of the estate to be disposed of in accordance with the will or the rules of intestacy.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0015/sec0021.html#sec21

nuac

This nomination procedure in place since the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1893. Originally meant as a facility for small amounts in days when few made wills unless they had substantial assets.

As already mentioned, there can be disputes over these nominations e.g. whether they have been properly completed, allegations of undue influence if the nominee connected to anyone involved in the CU.

CU directors and staff do not need such aggro. For that reason I have since the early days of the movement advised against offering this facility.

These days it is easier and comparatively cheaper for any CU member to make a will ( in comparison to 1893 )

BailMeOut

His wife is the only nomination on the account and 23k has now been transferred to her account. His will leaves everything to his wife too.

Does the wife need to process the personal probate herself or can a son/daughter do it for her as there is no way she would be able to do it. Are there any firms in Ireland that do probate cheaper that local town solicitors?

I do not know what the balance of the account is but she is frustrated about possibility of having to spend 2 grand to get access to what's remaining. She is an oap and 2k is a lot of money to her (as it is with most people!).

Ken.

This page on citizens info will help the lady out. I've pasted a bit below

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/the_deceaseds_estate/dealing_with_the_deceaseds_estate.html




A personal application

To make a personal application you must attend in person. The Probate Office has discretion to refuse to allow a personal applicant to be attended by an adviser. It may also refuse to allow an applicant to personally continue an application if it had been initiated by a solicitor. Where an application is made in connection with a case that has already been before the courts, that application must be made by a solicitor unless a special direction is received from the Probate Office. The Probate Office will help an executor/administrator who is acting personally.
A personal applicant for probate or for administration of the estate must take the following steps:

1. Get the form for personal applicants (Form PA2) from the Probate Office or one of the 14 local Probate Offices and fill it out.
2. You also need Inland Revenue Affidavit (Form CA24).
3. Fill out 2 copies of the Revenue Affidavit form as best you can by entering details of the deceased's estate such as bank, post office, building society accounts, property, assets, stocks, shares, debts. See guidance leaflet CA25.
4. Sign and swear both copies of the Revenue Affidavit before a practising solicitor or a commissioner for oaths. (One copy of the affadavit, as well as any other relevant information, will be sent by the Probate Office to the Revenue Commissioners after Probate is granted.)
5. Return the personal application form to the Probate Office along with:
   - the 2 copies of the Revenue Affadavit
   - the death certificate
   - a photocopy of the will and codicil/s (if any)
   - any other necessary document, for example, official copy of divorce decree
6. The Probate Office will contact you if there are other requirements or issues. If the Probate Office is satisfied it can process the application you will get an acknowledgement and an estimated waiting time for an appointment.
7. In due course you will be given an appointment for interview. (More than one appointment may be necessary.)
8. Attend the interview in person and bring the following required items:
   - proof of identity, such as your passport
   - original will and codicil/s (if any), as well as 3 copies of each
   - funeral bills/receipts
   - statements up to the time of death of deposits in banks, post offices, credit unions, building societies, etc.
   - details of other assets (for example, assurance policies, gratuities, superannuation schemes, stocks, shares, cash, prize bonds, etc.)
   - details of any liabilities or debts such as outstanding mortgages, loans, wages due to staff. (You may have to put an advertisement in the papers asking creditors to send in their claims within a certain period.)
   - details of any debts owing to the deceased's estate (wages, holiday pay, court case settlements, etc.
   - details about property (valuation required) together with title deeds or copy of land registry folio.
   If an administrator, rather than an executor, is applying for a grant, an administration bond may have to be provided. The surety (guarantor) for the administration bond must be worth the gross value of the estate.
9. Swear the Executor's oath. This is an oath swearing that he/she believes that the will in question is the last will of the deceased, that he/she is the person appointed as executor and that he/she will administer the will in accordance with the law. An administrator swears a similar oath.
10. Pay the fee for probate.

If the Registrar of the Probate Office is satisfied that the will is valid and there are no caveats (objections) entered then probate will be granted (or Letter of Administration).
If there are problems (for example, if the original will cannot be found or there is doubt about signatures) then the Registrar may require sworn statements from witnesses. If there are no problems, the Grant of Probate or Administration is issued on the oath of the executor/administrator.
The Probate Office or the District Probate Office will make a standard form of grant unless there is a contentious aspect to the application. Where a contentious issue arises, the matter must be decided by the High Court judge in charge of probate matters although the High Court can direct that the matter be resolved by the Circuit Court in certain circumstances.

Victor

How are deceased's creditors dealt with in the Industrial and Provident Societies Act procedure?

valleyoftheunos

BailMeOut wrote: »

His wife is the only nomination on the account and 23k has now been transferred to her account. His will leaves everything to his wife too.

Does the wife need to process the personal probate herself or can a son/daughter do it for her as there is no way she would be able to do it. Are there any firms in Ireland that do probate cheaper that local town solicitors?

I do not know what the balance of the account is but she is frustrated about possibility of having to spend 2 grand to get access to what's remaining. She is an oap and 2k is a lot of money to her (as it is with most people!).

the Wife here could renounce/refuse to act as executor but that mould complicate matters significantly. It may be posible for her children to help her with the estate.

Getting the grant of probate is only the start of administering an estate. Once the grant is obtained all the assets have to be appropriated, debtors approached, creditors paid. This means writing to banks, post offices, social welfare and so on. After all that property can transfered and bequests issued.

Its not rocket surgery and with some help I'm sure the lady could do it. However she is personally responsible and liable.

A Flat mate of mine did the probate and administration of her mother's estate a few years ago. She got through it alright and there were no major complications but she said afterwards that she wished she had engaged a solicitor to take care of it, it would have been money well spent. It took her 3 years to administer the entire estate which is a very long time. I never spoke to her in depth about it but she felt that had they gotten a solicitor it would have been done much quicker and would have been a lot less hassle for all the family.

Given that the lady in question here is the sole beneficiary it might be quite straightforward but considering that she might not be very keen to do it it could be a lot of hassle for her. I would suggest shopping around to find a reasonable estimate of costs and making a decision then.