Tax on Children's Allowance?

Le_Dieux

Apologies to Mods if this has been reported elsewhere - I have searched but cannot find it. Also not sure if this should be here ( in AH ) or on the Politics Forum.

As if this lot in DE haven't inflicted their angst enough on the people of Ireland, now they want to do this?:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/400000-families-face-tax-on-childrens-allowance-29075622.html

snubbleste

Taxing all income is a good idea.

Elessar

I don't see why the government have to pay everyone for their children in the first place.

Best username ever

snubbleste wrote: »

Taxing all income is a good idea.

You don't have children do you?

hfallada

Well if only half of all income earner pay tax. I imagine a large amount be untouched and you have to have a good income to get into the top bracket.

It's too vague and unclear to be worrying about it. It will be highly diluted by the budget.

Best username ever

Elessar wrote: »

I don't see why the government have to pay everyone for their children in the first place.

Of course everyone that doesn't have kids will thank this post.

Death and Taxes

Of course it should be subject to tax, all income regardless of how it is derived should be taxable.
Personally I would abolish CB altogether and replace it with something that is both fairer and actually benifits children.

Uriel.

Don't see why this is a big deal. It's a no brainer if you ask me. Landlords pay tax on rental income, those working a second job pay tax on that income, those making money from interest pay DIRT tax, those making money on shares/investments pay tax, etc etc why should those with children get free money untaxed?

smash

400000 families down €53 a month... That's not good. The money goes back to the economy ffs!

Le_Dieux

snubbleste wrote: »

Taxing all income is a good idea.

While, in the main, I totally agree, there are a LOT of families who will suffer if this goes through. Why not means test to see who gets the CA? Surely it can't be that difficult? This bunch in DE seem to want to tax every fcuking thing under the sun, if they are allowed to get away with it. Back in the 80's the same 'party' also tried to put VAT on children's shoes - I think Dukes might have been the Leader at the time - and that attempted move blew up in their faces and they were out of power nearly on the blink of an eye.

History going to repeat itself all over again I think!

Praetorian Saighdiuir

In before "if you cant afford kids, don't have them".

Only people who genuinely need CA should get it.

I don't have kids and tbh, one of the reasons is I actually could not afford to have one and keep it alive.

Best username ever

smash wrote: »

400000 families down €53 a month... That's not good. The money goes back to the economy ffs!

And in the biggest way possible.

Assassin saphir

Best username ever wrote: »

You don't have children do you?

You made them, you pay for them.

dvpower

Best username ever wrote: »

You don't have children do you?

I have children and I support taxing CHB. It would cost me about €1500 pa.

emo72

Kite flying? Don't think there's much chance of this proposal going through.

Best username ever

dvpower wrote: »

I have children and I support taxing CHB. It would cost me about €1500 pa.

Why don't we go after the real money drainers in society? Why attack children? Tell me this, why are junkies on disability when they're not disabled? It's because the state can't touch them once they're on it. No need to come off the drugs so, just keep collecting your money and banging up.

smash

Assassin saphir wrote: »

You made them, you pay for them.

This is such horse sh!t of an argument. Without CA, most parents in Ireland would have seriously struggled even further through the 80's. Now there's another recession and they're planning on significantly reducing an allowance that is very relied upon.

Elessar

Best username ever wrote: »

Of course everyone that doesn't have kids will thank this post.

Seriously. Why do the government pay everyone, regardless of income, money for each of their children? It boggles the mind and should have been done away with years ago.

Childrens Allowance should form part of the welfare or HSE subsistence allowance system where you must apply for it and it should be means tested. Therefore those who actually need it will get it. Madness that a comfortable household with a combined income of say 50-60k+ gets free money for their children.

Best username ever

Elessar wrote: »

Madness that a comfortable household with a combined income of say 50-60k+ gets free money for their children.

I agree with this part, why the fúck is Michael O' Leary collecting children's allowance? because he's entitled to.

RaRaRasputin

Best username ever wrote: »

Of course everyone that doesn't have kids will thank this post.

We have a child and I still don't think that getting child benefit is a god-given right. I don't see why people decide to have children when they don't have the money to raise them. We could do without the benefit, because we planned having a child.

smash

Elessar wrote: »

Madness that a comfortable household with a combined income of say 50-60k+ gets free money for their children.

If you consider 50-60k combined income to be a high income I feel sorry for you.

dvpower

Best username ever wrote: »

Why don't we go after the real money drainers in society? Why attack children? Tell me this, why are junkies on disability when they're not disabled? It's because the state can't touch them once they're on it. No need to come off the drugs so, just keep collecting your money and banging up.

Why not do both?

CHB is income. If its taxed then they could even increase the rate, giving poorer families more support, at the expense of better off families.

Hijpo

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Personally I would abolish CB altogether and replace it with something that is both fairer and actually benifits children.

I agree, plenty of people getting the CA and spending it on thenselves. But that would be to much on the sensible side for the bogies in Dail Eireann

snubbleste

Something has to happen to it imo
either tax it
or
get rid of it and give tax credits for each child.

Means testing it will be ineffective and will cost the taxpayer too much.

R0ot

If your household income annually is 100k+ (before tax) then you should not get child benefit.

holystungun9

Best username ever wrote: »

I agree with this part, why the fúck is Michael O' Leary collecting children's allowance? because he's entitled to.

I'm sure he has made a statement about this before that he himself feels it is ridiculous that his children get the allowance.

Sin City

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

We have a child and I still don't think that getting child benefit is a god-given right. I don't see why people decide to have children when they don't have the money to raise them. We could do without the benefit, because we planned having a child.

Do you not.think that.before the recession people had jobs and.could afford to be parents and.now they struggle through no fault of their own?
No need to get on your high horse and.look.down on people.in need

Best username ever

snubbleste wrote: »

Something has to happen to it imo
either tax it
or
get rid of it and give tax credits for each child.

Means testing it will be ineffective and will cost the taxpayer too much.

I would be in favor of the tax credits instead of cash.

melekalikimaka

R0ot wrote: »

If your household income annually is 100k+ (before tax) the you should not get child benefit.

100k!!!

if they have jobs they shouldnt get it full stop

Death and Taxes

Best username ever wrote: »

I would be in favor of the tax credits instead of cash.

What good is a tax credit to one of 450,000 unemployed

digzy

smash wrote: »

If you consider 50-60k combined income to be a high income I feel sorry for you.

The ironic thing is that if there's an unemployed couple with 4 kids and you tot up what they get from the state between med cards and rent supplement etc it mightn't be too far off that figure.

As stated already. all income should be taxed whether it's derived from income or from the state benefits.

Through my work I come across a large number of medical card holders. i'm baffled at how some people have them. One lady is married to a farmer who milks about 100 cows. Another guy owns a string of pubs but i know he's been burned property speculating, another dude was driving a 1 year old masda 6 last year. My personal favourite was an accountant who's a fianna fail town councillor who owns his own house, an investment property and drives a '12 merc. you'd wonder what strokes these people pull to get these benefits when the income level criteria are quite low.

WhatNowForUs?

Uriel. wrote: »

Don't see why this is a big deal. It's a no brainer if you ask me. Landlords pay tax on rental income, those working a second job pay tax on that income, those making money from interest pay DIRT tax, those making money on shares/investments pay tax, etc etc why should those with children get free money untaxed?

To me it seems like it would increase the public sector wage bill. Why tax something like childrens allowance when you can just reduce it. Government directly taking money away from you that they have directly given you - sounds so stupid that Im sure I missed something.

dvpower

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

To me it seems like it would increase the public sector wage bill. Why tax something like childrens allowance when you can just reduce it. Government directly taking money away from you that they have directly given you - sounds so stupid that Im sure I missed something.

We have a progressive income tax system, so taxing CHB would take more from high earners, less from lower earners and even less for earners below the tax threshold.

hoodwinked

snubbleste wrote: »

Something has to happen to it imo
either tax it
or
get rid of it and give tax credits for each child.

Means testing it will be ineffective and will cost the taxpayer too much.

i think this is the best option, to be fair it would encourage parents to work to provide for their children rather than encouraging the current system of popping out a few children and living on welfare,

there is a family local to us with 7 children, in a 5 bedroom council house and they get everything under the sun from either the hse or welfare,

they have iphones/ipads/flat screen 40inch hd tv's (yes plural), their childrens clothes are paid for by the hse, they get grants for everything...

they get at least €1,000 in child benefit a month, and are home all week so no childcare costs.

this should not be encouraged, there are families with €30,000p/a or more or less income who are working and struggling and depend on child benefit, be it to help cover childcare or clothes/school uniforms/college fees.

these are the people who deserve the help, they are working contributing to the country and should be praised for not sitting back and taking the piss.

remember not every baby is planned and when that happens we as a society should help those willing to help back by contributing by continuing to work.

punish the lazy.

WhatNowForUs?

digzy wrote: »

The ironic thing is that if there's an unemployed couple with 4 kids and you tot up what they get from the state between med cards and rent supplement etc it mightn't be too far off that figure.

As stated already. all income should be taxed whether it's derived from income or from the state benefits.

Through my work I come across a large number of medical card holders. i'm baffled at how some people have them. One lady is married to a farmer who milks about 100 cows. Another guy owns a string of pubs but i know he's been burned property speculating, another dude was driving a 1 year old masda 6 last year. My personal favourite was an accountant who's a fianna fail town councillor who owns his own house, an investment property and drives a '12 merc. you'd wonder what strokes these people pull to get these benefits when the income level criteria are quite low.

Its hard to get medical cards now. Not everybody unemployed can get rent allowance or mortgage allowance. Having said that Im sire there is a lot of corruption in the system.

apache

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

We have a child and I still don't think that getting child benefit is a god-given right. I don't see why people decide to have children when they don't have the money to raise them. We could do without the benefit, because we planned having a child.

This is a very admirable post. If more people had this attitude this country would be a better place.

However as much as I would love to see this coming in I can't see it coming in. People just have kids and expect the government to pay for them from OUR taxes. The handouts for nothing is too expensive. I already pay into a widow and orphans fund out of my wages in which I have no choice.

I am a firm believer if you choose to have kids you should be able to provide for them. But that will never happen in this country of handouts.

dvpower

apache wrote: »

I am a firm believer if you choose to have kids you should be able to provide for them. But that will never happen in this country of handouts.

Why stop at CHB?
The state makes big handouts to hundreds of thousands of pensioners too, who have had the benefit of a whole lifetime to make provision for themselves. Not to mention a raft of other cash payments to other social welfare recipients.
That's before you even go near the billions spent on providing healthcare for people who can't provide their own or a free education service to the self same people who get the free CHB handouts.

Le_Dieux

hoodwinked wrote: »

i think this is the best option, to be fair it would encourage parents to work to provide for their children rather than encouraging the current system of popping out a few children and living on welfare,

there is a family local to us with 7 children, in a 5 bedroom council house and they get everything under the sun from either the hse or welfare,

they have iphones/ipads/flat screen 40inch hd tv's (yes plural), their childrens clothes are paid for by the hse, they get grants for everything...

they get at least €1,000 in child benefit a month, and are home all week so no childcare costs.

this should not be encouraged, there are families with €30,000p/a or more or less income who are working and struggling and depend on child benefit, be it to help cover childcare or clothes/school uniforms/college fees.

these are the people who deserve the help, they are working contributing to the country and should be praised for not sitting back and taking the piss.

remember not every baby is planned and when that happens we as a society should help those willing to help back by contributing by continuing to work.

punish the lazy.

EXCELLENT post Hoodwinked. Well said!

apache

dvpower wrote: »

Why stop at CHB?
The state makes big handouts to hundreds of thousands of pensioners too, who have had the benefit of a whole lifetime to make provision for themselves. Not to mention a raft of other cash payments to other social welfare recipients.
That's before you even go near the billions spent on providing healthcare for people who can't provide their own or a free education service to the self same people who get the free CHB handouts.

This thread is about childrens allowance.

Arciphel

In reply to dvpower's comment above ^ what an absolute crock of shíte. So it serves people right for having the cheek to be unemployed, to get sick or even to get old and draw a pension? Or those selfish bastards who might want an education, yeah, fück them too.

apache

Am I missing something? This thread is about childrens allowance.

edit - oh right thought that was directed at me.

dvpower

apache wrote: »

This thread is about childrens allowance.

Its about the taxation of CHB actually. You expanded it out a bit by introducing the idea that 'this is a country of handouts', and I'm just following you.

dvpower

Arciphel wrote: »

In reply to dvpower's comment above ^ what an absolute crock of shíte. So it serves people right for having the cheek to be unemployed, to get sick or even to get old and draw a pension? Or those selfish bastards who might want an education, yeah, fück them too.

I think you miss my point.
I think that the state should be in the business of providing supports to pensioners, the healthcare system, the unemployed and the education system.
They should also be in the business of proving supports to families, rearing the next batch of taxpayers. I don't quite understand the argument that we shouldn't support families with CHB because people should make their own provision, but not extend this principal to other areas of state expenditure.

Le_Dieux

I was an avid follower of the HHC thread. I left it as I I couldn't take the obnoxious behaviour and comments by certain people who, I am convinced, have their own agenda, and are only on here to stir shít, and get people banned. That that person ( I cringe thinking they are a human) was allowed to continuously pass comments while decent people got banned on that thread was totally wrong IMHO.

Now, that same person is causing strife, making wild statements & doing EXACTLY as they did on that other thread can only mean people getting banned again. I have that 'person' on my ignore list, but of course I cannot stop people copying and pasting - it is their right.

I am now sorry I ever started this thread...is there a zone on Boards that is dvpowerFREE??????

clairefontaine

Ah. Six months after the Childrens Referendum was passed they want to tax child benefit.

They will tax whatever they can think of taxing because they need the money.

Before you know it, child maintenance will also get taxed. Watch it happen.

Duiske

Elessar wrote: »

Madness that a comfortable household with a combined income of say 50-60k+ gets free money for their children.

That household will have paid a fair chunk into the system already. If you gave me €100 and I gave you €10, would you consider that €10 to be "free money" ?

apache

dvpower wrote: »

Its about the taxation of CHB actually. You expanded it out a bit by introducing the idea that 'this is a country of handouts', and I'm just following you.

No need to expand. You don't speak for me. You only speak for yourself.
I'm well aware what the topic of this thread is even if you don't.

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I am now sorry I ever started this thread...is there a zone on Boards that is dvpowerFREE??????

But darling, I've already promised that I'll never buy you petrol station flowers again.

Forgive?

McNulty737

Child benefit should be scrapped entirely and replaced with something less draining on the state. If you have children, why should the state have to pay for your decisions? If you have children you better get out there and work your ass off to pay for them in my opinion. People in this country need to start being accountable and stop expecting the middle income tax payer to bail everyone else out.

Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.

Tin Foil Hat

dvpower wrote: »

Why not do both?

CHB is income. If its taxed then they could even increase the rate, giving poorer families more support, at the expense of better off families.

Pricing the middle class out of parenthood in order to pay the working class to have as many kids as they want is a really, really bad idea.

green_beret

taxing it is a sensible idea , those on high incomes will keep less of it , those on lower incomes will keep more

fair and equitable