Prison Equality

Frogeye

Hi

I was poking around the guardian this morning and found this article on women in prison. Basically it seems that women prisoners are "vunerable" and only there because they have had a hard time in life and they shouldn't really be in prison, especially since the prison system is designed for men and doesn't suit them.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/27/women-in-prison-rehabilitation-chris-grayling?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

I then went to the irish penal reform trust website to get some numbers on the % of male violent offenders and found that they too didn't believe in women going to prison. Further down there is an article about how womens sentences should be suspended ( A UN recommendation), if it serves the best interests of their children.

http://www.iprt.ie/women-offenders

That is a bit shocking for me tbh. Plenty of men in prison have children, yet their role in their childrens lives is not taken account. I'm not nieve enough to believe that they are all the best parents in the world but I think the same could be said of the women involved but yet they are treated differently. A a senior police women in the UK was recently convicted of bribary but the judge halved her sentence because she was in "the process" of adopting a child.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21292338


I had to go elsewhere to find some rough numbers from a few years back that suggests that most prisoner aren't there for violent crimes. So why the focus on just women?

http://whycare.ie/crime-prisonersireland/41-understanding-crime/understanding-crime.html


I'm not a believer in prison or punishment as the only redress for crime. I think people should be punished but should also be given the help to get themsleves right. But I also believe that if half of society can be sent to prison for a crime, then the other half should have the them same and until alernative solutions are provided for both male and female, then one group should be treated as the other.
Any opinions?

Strawberry Fields

Scissor sisters that is all.

Fukuyama

It is sexism. It's black and white.

However, I can't see it changing. As a society we treat women differently. The gap has narrowed significantly. However, there is a huge gap when it comes to the downsides for women. For example, you won't find many feminist campaigning for punishment, mandatory female conscription, death sentences and so on.

In terms of just prison, a man and a woman doing a ten year sentence are going to have hugely different experiences in this country. Mountjoy is a Victorian dungeon. 23 hour lock-up, four men to a cell at points, sh1tting in buckets. The women's facility resembles small studio apartments and they're only on lockdown when they sleep and for a few hours during the day. Way more recreation and facilities available too. Of course, the men bring this on themselves due to security issues. Obviously an institution dominated by males (particularly those of a certain predisposition for violence) is not going to be a happy place. But hey. Equality = unisex prisons. Deal with it.

In my opinion, men see themselves as having to deal with harsher realities simply because they're men. THAT is the biggest obstacle to eradicating prejudice against women.

Men are also discriminated against when it comes to housing. The disproportionate amount of men on the street is shocking. I can't recall where I read it but in Ireland it's something like 98% of homeless are men. There are far more facilities available to women.

I guess when you know you'll face tougher realities, you find it harder to treat women as equal and opposites.

I am of course taking about men as a whole and only on the 'big issues'. I think for the most part, day-to-day, the vast majority of men don't even subconsciously consider gender.

iptba

Frogeye wrote: »

Hi

I was poking around the guardian this morning and found this article on women in prison. Basically it seems that women prisoners are "vunerable" and only there because they have had a hard time in life and they shouldn't really be in prison, especially since the prison system is designed for men and doesn't suit them.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/27/women-in-prison-rehabilitation-chris-grayling?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

I then went to the irish penal reform trust website to get some numbers on the % of male violent offenders and found that they too didn't believe in women going to prison. Further down there is an article about how womens sentences should be suspended ( A UN recommendation), if it serves the best interests of their children.

http://www.iprt.ie/women-offenders

That is a bit shocking for me tbh. Plenty of men in prison have children, yet their role in their childrens lives is not taken account. I'm not nieve enough to believe that they are all the best parents in the world but I think the same could be said of the women involved but yet they are treated differently. A a senior police women in the UK was recently convicted of bribary but the judge halved her sentence because she was in "the process" of adopting a child.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21292338


I had to go elsewhere to find some rough numbers from a few years back that suggests that most prisoner aren't there for violent crimes. So why the focus on just women?

http://whycare.ie/crime-prisonersireland/41-understanding-crime/understanding-crime.html


I'm not a believer in prison or punishment as the only redress for crime. I think people should be punished but should also be given the help to get themsleves right. But I also believe that if half of society can be sent to prison for a crime, then the other half should have the them same and until alernative solutions are provided for both male and female, then one group should be treated as the other.
Any opinions?

Similar article along these lines in Monday's Irish Examiner:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/ill-never-go-back-to-prison-229005.html

Dean0088

Dean0088 wrote: »

For example, you won't find many feminist campaigning for punishment, mandatory female conscription, death sentences and so on.
.

Well yeah, I campaign against death sentences for anyone and conscription for anyone...

Interesting article there, iptba. On the one hand, I wanted to straight off and google "supporting men out of the prison system".
On the other hand, "Women make up 3.5% of the prison population. Many commit non-violent offences and most serve short sentences. "
I wonder

These seem good resources for both genders alike, at least
http://www.iprt.ie/
http://www.workingnotes.ie/index.php/item/focus-ireland-prison-in-reach-service
This was also reassuring, even though it's UK
http://www.insidetime.org/info-help-results.asp?sID=127&c=families_need_fathers

The Corinthian

bluewolf wrote: »

On the other hand, "Women make up 3.5% of the prison population. Many commit non-violent offences and most serve short sentences. "

Not as simple as that, I'm afraid. A recent report into the UK criminal system (posted it ages ago, but might try to dig it up again) showed that a large part of why women make up 3.5% of the prison population is because they're significantly more likely to get a warning than be arrested and even if arrested and brought to trial far less likely to receive a custodial sentence.

Men greatly out number women for violent crimes (although it should also be pointed out that men greatly out number women as victims of violent crimes), however for non-violent crimes women often outnumber men, especially in areas such as theft.

The problem I see with such statistics as what you've posted, is that outside of violent crime they're based on an anti-male bias in criminal law that sees men incarcerated far more often than women for the same crimes. Additionally, when arguing that men commit the majority of violent crimes, it undermine the fact that women also commit violent crimes.

All this skewed and biased data is then used by lobby groups, along with a modern spin on the old 'pleading the belly' English common law, to justify further bias to the point that women become immune from custodial sentences for the same crimes as men.

goose2005

iptba wrote: »

Similar article along these lines in Monday's Irish Examiner:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/ill-never-go-back-to-prison-229005.html

THe opening lines were pretty sexist,

AGED 25, with long dark hair and pearly-white teeth, Lisa Kevitt should have the world at her feet. Instead, she is struggling to rebuild her life after a teenage introduction to heroin turned her into an addict with 25 criminal convictions.

So first they mention how attractive she is, and then her addiction and crimes are portrayed as entirely passive things that just happened to her.

belcampprisoner

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-deadliest-female-killers.php

Marsden

"At 21, she attacked a woman, her only crime", am I taking this out of context or is this supposed to make me feel sorry for her being in prison. Because it definitely doesn't.

Frogeye

saw this today :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/19/erica-depalo-guilty_n_2720037.html#slide=1097132

female teacher has sex with 15 year boy and doesn't get jail. What would happen the other way around.

also as an aside, there is an interesting link at the bottom...didnt realise that there were as many examples of women having sex with under age boys.

discus

Cop on lads, everyone knows only men are perverts and paedophiles.

iptba

discus wrote: »

Cop on lads, everyone knows only men are perverts and paedophiles.

Or commit domestic violence.
See, for example, this governmental website from Western Australia:
http://www.dcp.wa.gov.au/crisisandemergency/pages/domesticviolencehelplines.aspx
(make sure not just to read the titles but the actual description of the second service!)

(A tiny bit off-topic but same attitudes may apply to other things)

Frogeye

Saw an article in todays Irish Indo on this topic. This is the line that stood out for me.

"The ACJRD has called for alternatives to custody and a gender-sensitive approach for female offenders"

ACJRD are the Association for Criminal Justice Research and Development

I think alternatives to custody for a good way to go but a gender sensitive approach is a bit much.

iptba

Frogeye wrote: »

Saw an article in todays Irish Indo on this topic. This is the line that stood out for me.

"The ACJRD has called for alternatives to custody and a gender-sensitive approach for female offenders"

ACJRD are the Association for Criminal Justice Research and Development

I think alternatives to custody for a good way to go but a gender sensitive approach is a bit much.

Just skimmed the article. My understanding is that many male offenders also come from domestic environments that were far from ideal, but it doesn't make that point, nor is there a general tendency to see such males as victims.

Pawwed Rig

Link for the lazy
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/threequarters-of-jailed-women-endured-violence-abuse-29458022.html

I especially liked this part
The majority of crimes committed were low-level addiction-related crimes such as theft, public order and drug offences.
Ah sure that's ok then:mad:

iptba

This is from the UK. I don't think has been highlighted on this thread so far:

Five Myths About The Sentencing Of Female Offenders
http://brightonmanplan.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/five-myths-about-the-sentencing-of-female-offenders/

GalwayGuy2

And the protection of the public could be better achieved through dedicated secure units for women rather than putting them into a system that is predominantly designed for a male lifestyle and male behaviours, and therefore incarcerates them in masculine-led regimes.

One of the oppositions comment from the transcripts. So, putting someone in prison is seen as "incarcerating them in masculine-led regimes.":rolleyes:

claypigeon777

I would imagine although I have not seen the statistics that women are less likely than men to be violent rapists, drug dealers, gangland assassins, armed robbers and serial killers and women are more likely to have been involved in petty crime to fuel a drug habit.
Women as I know from reading the newspapers although the real picture could be different generally do not present before the court for serious crimes unless they have been involved in covering or giving alibis for their husbands or partners who are serious violent criminals. So as I see it women according to my limited knowledge who do end up in prison have probably been railroaded into it by violent partners or are pathetic figures who steal to fuel a drug habit.

iptba

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I would imagine although I have not seen the statistics that women are less likely than me to be violent rapists, drug dealers, gangland assassins, armed robbers and serial killers and women are more likely to have been involved in petty crime to fuel a drug habit.
Women as I know from reading the newspapers although the real picture could be different generally do not present before the court for serious crimes unless they have been involved in covering or giving alibis for their husbands or partners who are serious violent criminals. So as I see it women according to my limited knowledge who do end up in prison have probably been railroaded into it by violent partners or are pathetic figures who steal to fuel a drug habit.

I might leave this to other people to reply in more detail.

But I have previously done volunteer work in some disadvantaged areas and many boys and girls (children and adolescents) were terrible for stealing from shops, long before they had violent partners or had drug habits. It wasn't the case that this was almost exclusively a problem with the boys. This is certainly not to tar everyone from such areas with the one brush and the problem seemed worst in some areas than others. But I don't accept the model that women only enter into criminality due to the influence of men.

The Corinthian

iptba wrote: »

But I don't accept the model that women only enter into criminality due to the influence of men.

The old "women only do bad things because they're victims" defence. A classic spin on "sugar and spice and all things nice".

GUIGuy

The vast majority of prison admissions are for non violent crimes, often for debts for not paying a fine... often a day or so.

In 2012, 22 people were imprisoned in relation to the non-payment of a civil debt.

There were 8,304 committals for non-payment of court-ordered fines in 2012;

90.3% of sentenced committals in 2009 were for non-violent offences.

82.4% of women committed under sentence to prison in 2009 were for non-violent offences.

http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2

The 3rd & 4th points are interesting... 17.6% of female committals were for violent crimes but the average was 9.7% meaning that the rate for men was lower still. So are men less violent or more likely to be imprisoned for non violent crimes? I'm not sure but considering that the vast majority of committals were for debts/fines it seems that women get off with non custodial sentences.

Even still where a man and a woman face a day in prison for debts/fines a man will have a worse time of it if he ends up in Mountjoy.

iptba

What can happen when there is a lack of prison space for females:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Teen+killer+of+chip+shop+man+Franco+released+by+appeal+court;+Girl,...-a060669401

Teen killer of chip shop man Franco released by appeal court; Girl, 16, told to keep the peace.

THE TEENAGE girl who was jailed last month for blasting chip shop boss Franco Sacco to death has sensationally walked free.

[..]

But last week the three-judge Court of Criminal Appeal ruled that the sentence be suspended because the State provided no place of detention for young women.

iptba

In this post, I highlighted some data on gender and sentencing from two reports (quite old at this stage) that looked at sentencing in Ireland
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65105082&postcount=175

iptba

Oct 8 piece:

More men are raped in the US than women, figures on prison assaults reveal

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2449454/More-men-raped-US-women-including-prison-sexual-abuse.html

A very good argument in my view for more prison equality: if women are going to get single cells, so should men.

Frogeye

not sure where eircom get their news but:


http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/21413841/?view=Standard

naasrd

Prison should be cruel, unequal, painful and violent. What we have is the opposite, and the scum who pass through our system have no fear of returning to it.

The Corinthian

naasrd wrote: »

Prison should be cruel, unequal, painful and violent. What we have is the opposite, and the scum who pass through our system have no fear of returning to it.

That's very interesting - not sure what it has to do with what we're discussing here though. Maybe you should read the thread?

nxbyveromdwjpg

Interesting thread over in Legal right now

billgibney wrote: »

OK, I'm employed by the dept of justice and we've been instructed that when bringing prisoners to and from courts, prisons, hospital appointments etc. that female prisoners are not to be handcuffed in future as its degrading but male prisoners are still to be handcuffed.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057063559

discus

naasrd wrote: »

Prison should be cruel, unequal, painful and violent. What we have is the opposite, and the scum who pass through our system have no fear of returning to it.

Ah, so hardened criminal knackers can become kings and princes, establishing their own hierarchy, complete with extortion rackets and other criminal enterprise. Maybe you'd like to see Tax evaders raped? Streakers tied upside down for their 2 days duration?

Prison is a denial of liberty, nothing else.

Ihatehalloween

simple solution ....dont do the crime

Pawwed Rig

Mod note - This thread is about the differing treatment of male and female prisoners. Please back on topic.

iptba

This UK article highlights views and an approach that is almost completely the opposite to equal treatment:

Female prisoners to serve sentences 'nearer families'
Oct 25
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24659289

iptba

(US article)

Women inmates get more tailored treatment

[..]

The change reflects a recognition that gender dictates different treatment of inmates. "It's not a one-size-fits-all system," said DOC Secretary Bernie Warner.

"The pathways coming to the system are different for women than men," he said. "Men are incarcerated for criminal thinking and anti-social behavior. Women come in because of social influences and trauma."

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/women-inmates-get-more-tailored-treatment

iptba

Saw this on Twitter earlier today:

https://twitter.com/mediahub_ie/status/404967393299947520

MediaHub.ie @mediahub_ie

'Women's prison was like a holiday camp' Former inmates discussed their stories with Paddy O'Gorman on @TodaySOR @DeptofJustice

iptba

(from April 2013)

Toughening up prisoner privileges

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/toughening-up-prisoner-privileges

This only applies to male prisoners!

iptba

(On US prisons)

Prison Rape Widely Ignored by Authorities
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131113

Bepolite

Interesting thread. In general women's prison in Ireland has been got right. It's men's prison that needs to be brought more inline with the Scandinavian model. Both men and women are victims of a failed system in many cases with harrowing home life. This doen't give them an excuse and the punishment aspect should be there but this needs to be tempered with rehabilitation and turning people away from recidivism.

To anyone that thinks a harrowing prison system deters anyone look at the conditions in prisons in other countries and look at their crime rates and recidivism rates. The US system is a good example of a largely failed system.

Pawwed Rig

Thye American prison system is completely disfunctional. There are no votes in 'leftie' rehabilitation programmes so it is all about punishment (hence ridiculously long sentencing for fairly minor crimes). Personally I would favour a rehab approach but I am not convinced about how effective it would be. The issue arises because of the double standard in Ireland.

Piliger

Bepolite wrote: »

Both men and women are victims of a failed system in many cases with harrowing home life.

That's great .. blame everyone else :rolleyes:

pwurple

Piliger wrote: »

That's great .. blame everyone else :rolleyes:

In a lot of cases I'd say that's correct. How we treat / bring up our children has a lot to do with what kind of adults they become. What hope does a child of two heroin addicts have? Learning difficulties from birth due to a drug-addled pregnancy. shining example of parents being junkies all day and all night. No one in their extended family ever worked, misses mostof their schooling. Model citizen of the future?

Ireland seems to think that is completely irrelevant, sweeps it under the carpet like every other thing to do with children here. Ovce they are not causing a noisy fuss, it's all good.

Piliger

pwurple wrote: »

In a lot of cases I'd say that's correct. How we treat / bring up our children has a lot to do with what kind of adults they become. What hope does a child of two heroin addicts have? Learning difficulties from birth due to a drug-addled pregnancy. shining example of parents being junkies all day and all night. No one in their extended family ever worked, misses mostof their schooling. Model citizen of the future?

Ireland seems to think that is completely irrelevant, sweeps it under the carpet like every other thing to do with children here. Ovce they are not causing a noisy fuss, it's all good.

You still blame 'the system'. I hold those families responsible. Simple.