New Avalanche escape technique

Fattes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygSr-aA9e7w

There are no words!!!:eek:

RATM

Video taken down=(

Just did avalanche search and rescue training in Chamonix a few weeks back as part of an off piste course. My main memory of it is that if you're hit by one then you really have got little chance of survival. AFAIR 40% die of asphyxiation (can't breathe as your mouth/nose will be filled full of snow). Another percentage die of cardiac arrest. Even those who are quick enough to create an oxegen pocket usually run out of oxegen pretty quick- instructor said that if you are not rescued in under 9 minutes you're a goner.

Fattes

I will dig out an alternative version of it when I get home tonight for your viewing pleasure.

RATM; Who did you use for the course? Standard line is after 15 minutes your chance of survival plummets by 70% and every 5 minutes after that by another 8-10% until it hits 99%. Thats if you have not been killed by Rocks, Debris and cliffs before you stop.

Sadly the improvements in Ski tech has lead more people into the back country a large % of which are not properly prepared. I never ski without a Shovel, Probe and Beacon (Unless in a catsuit & racing). Will also always have first aid kit, bevy bag and torch in the bag, I have been avalanched once and set off 2 others and I would rather not have it happen again.

Also the rise of ABS bags has created a bit of a superman complex of survival, I like to tell people if you are skiing somewhere, where you think you will need that bag you have all ready made a bad decision.

Link that works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyiO2dFym0c

CardinalJ

I had an avalanche 'chase' me down a red slope years ago in Bareges in the Pyrenees. There had been an incredible dump of snow the night before and a lot of the resort probably shouldn't have been open. There were a bunch of guys off piste a few 100 feet above me and they set one off. Came flying down from by right and behind me and I had to just go for it. Was early so the slope wasnt cut up so I was able to fly down pretty easy but if it had been late in the day I probably would have been caught up in it.

I think there's a really blasé attitude to Avalanches these days, mainly from people who dont understand how snow works or what causes avalanches. Ive ski'd on average twice a year for the last 13/14 years and would consider myself a good skier, but I know when I'm pushing it. I also know I'm pretty sh11111t off piste. As said above, the airbags probably do more harm than good when it comes to peoples perception of what they're capable of. Once you get into an avalanche you're just going along for the ride and you're probably screwed. Thinking one of those bags is going to save you is like thinking wearing a pair of arm bands are going to save you if you're thrown into big waves in the middle of the sea.

RATM

Good vid=)

Fattes- went with www.actionoutdoors.co.uk who are an agent for the French not-for-profit UCPA. The do off piste and high mountain courses in Chamonix and a good few other French resorts, all at reasonable prices, at least compared to some other outfits in France.

The instructor did say that you can survive up to 20 minutes and for some lucky people slightly beyond that, but he said 9 is premium to find you alive.

One salient point he made was that although 9 minutes sounds like your co-skiers have some time on their side the other thing is that chances are they are going to be trying to hoof through up to one metre of powder to find you. Walking through deep powder is difficult at the best of times, doing it off piste on uneven ground is even more difficult. And even when the transponder gets you close you still have to map out a 2m square area just begin to properly search for the victim. And finally all that in itself is assuming that someone saw exactly where you went down, if you were last in the group and it happened well then chances are no-one would have seen it.

It is easy to see how the first 6-7 minutes would fly by in no time and even at that stage the rescue party might not even be that close or still a few minutes away from using their probes and shovels.

Fattes

CardinalJ
The ABS bags work really well, in fact there success rate of saving lives is why they are so popular, but I personally believe it has led to an increase in the number of human triggered avalanches and for those below as in your story that is never good! Plus the bags only keep you on top of the slide they do not deal with the risk of getting hit by debris, rocks or dumped over a cliff.

RATM; I have in practice retrieved a 2 Meter + burial from blind (we were giving an eye witness account of the accident) in tricky terrain, in less than 8 minutes. But we were above the scene and myself and one other are VERY practiced with the beacons & rescue. In fact I train with mine at least once every two weeks if I was in resort it would be once a week.

In fact to dig out a 2 Meter burial (which is the average) you are looking at 3-5 minutes if you are good with a team of 2.

if you were last in the group and it happened well then chances are no-one would have seen it.

There should always be someone watching!!!!! If there is not its bad group management on the part of somebody.

With practice rescue become a bit more instinctive even knowing the quickest way to get the shovel and probe out of the bag and packing it so they are instantly accessible ads to the time you are giving your friend. Like all things the best way to deal with an avalanche is not to set one off but for the times when you have done everything right and it still happens you need to know what you are doing.

a148pro

I love the way this thread moves from your man's sickness to a genuine and detailed discussion of avalanches! And all because they originally took down the video!

Fattes

a148pro; Sorry my bad :mad: Here is some more ski porn as an apology!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8DnVcDoUmE

rjp123

Fattes wrote: »

Also the rise of ABS bags has created a bit of a superman complex of survival, I like to tell people if you are skiing somewhere, where you think you will need that bag you have all ready made a bad decision.

Nice.

Fattes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattes

Also the rise of ABS bags has created a bit of a superman complex of survival, I like to tell people if you are skiing somewhere, where you think you will need that bag you have all ready made a bad decision.


Nice

The Wife is nagging me to start wearing an ABS bag, persoanlly I really dont see a need right know to add the extra weight to my back when sensible decisions could deliver hte same results but, I am guessing I will have one withing the next 2 seasons.

RATM

How much do they weigh Fattes? And what is the typical cost of them ?

I think the best way to see any kind of safety equipment when you are going off piste is that you are better to have it and then to not need it than to need it and not have it.

For 8 years now I have carried a snowboard tool with spare screws in my backpack when riding. I've never needed it, not once on a mountain, even to tighten screws. But if I didn't have it some day and my binding popped out and screws went flying then I know I'd regret not having one. And I'd hate the long walk home

Fattes

€500 -€750 depending on the model and weight again depends but average is about 8-10 Lbs heavier than a normal bag before you put anything else in.

A couple of the manufactures Scott and Mammut have removable systems, I can see myself eventually getting on in the next couple of years once they lighten them up a little more.

Totally understand your logic but having one of your mates pull on the tab in a cable car when you are wearing it on non powder day is always a risk

RATM

Interesting. But could you explain what it is exactly that they do? Like I get that the two airbags inflate when you pull the release cord if caught in an avalanche. But I'm not quite getting the idea - is it that you're supposed to inhale air from the airbags to give you more survival time while your fellow skiers dig you out ? Its just I'm not seeing any tube and mouthpiece to do that.

Also is the idea that the bags, when inflated, give you a bit of wiggle room when trapped by the snow ? One thing that stood out for me in the avalanche training I did recently was that the instructor was saying when you're trapped by one you literally can't even move your finger, the snow around you will be packed so tight that it is effectively like being buried in set concrete. Scary stuff as well all see snow as this fluffy stuff we can just kick around at will. But in an avalanche it literally traps you and you can barely move an inch.

Fattes

They way the bags work is the increase volume and bouncy, so you float to the top of the debris slide and keep you from being smothered through bouncy and stopping you getting buried.

There is also an avalung bag which gives you an extra 2- minutes oxygen by breading through a special tube attached to a bag.

How you are buried will depend on the type of slide and the snow conditions at the time. As a rule yep the snow does set like concrete, the one I have had to dig out of sucked and was seriously hard work


Pretty good video of how it works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWajgV01Qpk

Jonnykitedude

Fattes wrote: »

There is also an avalung bag which gives you an extra 2- minutes oxygen by breading through a special tube attached to a bag.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWajgV01Qpk

That's not how they work, it expels co2 out around your back and takes fresh air from the front, the majority of people caught up in an avalanche die from co2 posing rather than freezing etc and this prevents this...once you can stay calm!

Fattes

That's not how they work, it expels co2 out around your back and takes fresh air from the front, the majority of people caught up in an avalanche die from co2 posing rather than freezing etc and this prevents this...once you can stay calm!

I never explained how they worked I described the majority of Avalungs as a tube that is attached to a backpack? The reason i did not dwell on them is because they are ****e always were hoping that you would get the mouth piece in your mouth when caught by a slide was a nonsense

he majority of people caught up in an avalanche die from co2 posing rather than freezing e

25% from Blunt force trauma, 45% from Suffocation and the remaining 30% is made up of cardiac arrest and a Combination of other factors.

Figures above are from the Swiss Avalanche Academy and Canadian Avalanche academy. Both of whom I have spend a considerable amount of time with.

Jonnykitedude

Fattes wrote: »

I never explained how they worked I described the majority of Avalungs as a tube that is attached to a backpack? The reason i did not dwell on them is because they are ****e always were hoping that you would get the mouth piece in your mouth when caught by a slide was a nonsense



25% from Blunt force trauma, 45% from Suffocation and the remaining 30% is made up of cardiac arrest and a Combination of other factors.

Figures above are from the Swiss Avalanche Academy and Canadian Avalanche academy. Both of whom I have spend a considerable amount of time with.

No you said "special tube attached to a bag." When you talking about life support apparatus, bag and tube mean a whole different thing than backpack.

You seem to have taken my post as a personal attack and are now boasting about spending time with experts....who cares I too have plenty of experience and have shadowed experts in the Field but I'm not going to boast about it.

Anyway.......

Fattes

No you called something I posted wrong when I made no attempt to explain a redundant apparatus that was never anything more than a money maker for BCA and Black Diamond and is of limited use other than if you are caught in a Tree wells. The avalung is not and was never considered as a life support apparatus unless you were the marketing company of BCA or Black Diamond and the explanation was as simple as possible for a reason as there is a lot of people who use the forum with a basic knowledge of equipment.

I would not call it boasting there was no claim to my ability just quoting a source for statements made and how I acquired it. I have spent enough time in the mountains to know there are plenty of people who have more knowledge of the mountains in one little finger than I will amass in my life time. Thankfully I have had the pleasure of their company and their willingness to share knowledge and I am happy to share mine.

Poster King

The Avalung is a joke and I've not seen one in several years now. It would never be possible to get the mouthpiece into your mouth. The ABS bags are tried and tested at this stage and do reduce risk of death significantly, they are a bit heavier than a regular ruck sack but not much. I have tested and tried a few but not purchased yet, but like the Snow Pulse version. I'd be interested to hear other people's views.
(off to Argentiere in the morning, amped)

Fattes

The main players in the Market are

ABS – Used by DAKINE, ECOC, Ortovox, Salewa and as of this year The North Face - Use 2 Bags either side of the pack separate inflation systems for each bag

Snowpulse – Acquired by Mammut and used for Scott –Use 2 Bags either side of the pack separate inflation systems for each bag
you can remove the unit and use as regular pack

BCA –Makers of all things avi based. Use One bag releases like a big pillow

I have had the pleasure of testing and using all 3 types above over the past 2 seasons on and off.

I love BCA stuff but I m not sure about the bag it’s a one bag system and well if it gets punctured you are screwed!

Snowpulse is really good but I found them slightly heavier than some of the models again only one bag but a larger bag than the BCA


The best one I have used is the The North Face Patrol 24, two separate bags, relatively light compared to the others and separate bags reduces the risk if one is punctured in the slide.

Some airlines are a pain in the arss to travel with them & wont allow them even though the are permitted. This should help

http://www.backcountryaccess.com/2012/11/12/how-to-fly-with-an-avalanche-airbag-cylinder/