Bareknuckle Karate

_oveless_

Hi, I was talking to a friend the other day who practices karate on the northside and he was telling me about an incident that happened in his club the previous week, two guys were sparring and one opened the other guys face up really badly with a punch, I asked him what kind of gloves they used and he said they don't use gloves at all! Just gumshield's and groinguards are allowed. Now whether he's full of sh*t or not I'm not sure but he sent me a video link to the type of sparring he says he does

anyway my question is this; seeing how bareknuckle prizefighting is illegal would this type of fighting be too?

CianRyan

Could have been doing light touch and it was just an accident?

Full contact with no gloves or protection just seems stupid, especially in training.

Zen65

_oveless_ wrote: »

Now whether he's full of sh*t or not I'm not sure but he sent me a video link to the type of sparring he says he does

It's not clear whether the injury arose from training or competition?

In traditional Shotokan karate gloves are not worn in training, as it can encourage poor punching technique among students, and it discourages students from learning the correct distance for their punches.

When I started learning karate there were never any gloves, even in competitions. Gloves are used in competition nowadays though because in that environment people are more inclined to get nervous and make mistakes.

When I teach karate to people who have trained elsewhere using gloves, it is often obvious as they don't seem to know how to make a proper fist. That kind of fist will get you injured if you punch somebody in the face.

Z

Peetrik

Zen65 wrote: »

In traditional Shotokan karate gloves are not worn in training, as it can encourage poor punching technique among students, and it discourages students from learning the correct distance for their punches.

In fairness Zen, the half a millimeter or so that gloves might put your distances off are made up many times over by what you gain in technique/instinct by being able to train full force punches to the face against resisting opponents while wearing gloves.

Zen65 wrote: »

When I teach karate to people who have trained elsewhere using gloves, it is often obvious as they don't seem to know how to make a proper fist. That kind of fist will get you injured if you punch somebody in the face.

I'd imagine that's fairly circumstantial as you probably don't get a lot of people going from a style that punches correctly using gloves (Boxing/MMA/Thai) back to Karate

CIARAN_BOYLE

I've trained bareknuckle competed bareknuckle and wearing gloves.

Most karate competitions are supposed to be semi contact. You are supposed to be hitting at full force and stopping just before contact and making light contact.

One thing about karate is that students of the art are supposed to learn control.

Peetrik wrote: »

I'd imagine that's fairly circumstantial as you probably don't get a lot of people going from a style that punches correctly using gloves (Boxing/MMA/Thai) back to Karate

I guess it happens more often that you would think

I think a lot of people know that I train in a college karate club. Of the group that we starting this year in October that are still with us at the moment we have 8 people who are still with us. Of that eight, four of them have trained kickboxing or mma before and we have had to work with them on making a fist.

Peetrik

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Of that eight, four of them have trained kickboxing or mma before and we have had to work with them on making a fist.

Well if I'm wrong then I stand corrected but personally I'd still have my doubts about how much actual training the MMA lads had that they couldn't make a fist.

I'm saying nothing about the kickboxers

CIARAN_BOYLE

Peetrik wrote: »

Well if I'm wrong then I stand corrected but personally I'd still have my doubts about how much actual training the MMA lads had that they couldn't make a fist.

I'm saying nothing about the kickboxers

No offense to people on here but too many make judgements based on styles.

Since we don't know each other in person then thats all you can do but there are good and bad clubs in any style and imo there are more bad clubs than good ones in every style around.

Peetrik

None taken, I meant it more of an observation on types of people and how they migrate through styles than the styles themselves.

You are right though, I do make generalized assumptions about how some styles are trained regardless of taking into account how different clubs might approach their training.

Zen65

Peetrik wrote: »

In fairness Zen, the half a millimeter or so that gloves might put your distances off are made up many times over by what you gain in technique/instinct by being able to train full force punches to the face against resisting opponents while wearing gloves.

It's not simply the thickness (though gloves are much thicker than you suggest) it's the fact that the glove absorbs the impact, so when you make contact you don't feel the reaction in your hand at all the same as when you are bare-fisted. So if your fist is not properly tightened you might get away with it when you wear a glove. Thickness is a problem if you always train with a 1cm extension on your arm, and then try to hit somebody for real in self-defence with that 1cm missing.

But don't misunderstand me, I agree there is real benefit to training with gloves sometimes, not simply for safety, but also because they allow you to 'test' whether the rest of your arm is aligned properly when you punch with a bit of power.

Peetrik wrote: »

I'd imagine that's fairly circumstantial as you probably don't get a lot of people going from a style that punches correctly using gloves (Boxing/MMA/Thai) back to Karate

Oddly enough I have had quite a few students who cannot find their own MA in the neighbourhood, or who simply want to try something new while visiting Ireland. Indeed some of them have simply come from another style of karate where gloves are commonly used (worse again if it's from a point-scoring sport style of karate). They've been using gloves and their fists are badly made, or their wrist is misaligned. It's not the fault of the art they trained in, it's the fault of their instructors who did not check that the student was making a proper fist, possibly because the glove obscures the view of the fist. You can get away with a poor fist (up to a point) if the glove cushions the blow, but one bare punch to a jaw or skull and you wont use that hand again for a while!



Z

CianRyan

I'll give you that, I had been using gloves and I was never really sure about my form, about 20 minutes (of light punches) on a light bag and pads without gloves with someone that knows what they're talking about has made all the difference in that I have an idea of what I'm looking to archive.

Now I'm quite new to MA, I trained for a few months last year and I've only started back a few weeks this year so my punches are far from perfect but it's nice having an idea of what I'll one day be doing. I'll be training with gloves for a long time to come.

I do intended on competing in full contact at some stage in the future but AFAIK it will be with protection.
My trainer's on here so he can confirm/give out to me for not using gloves.
Edit: There's actually two of them on here now that I think.

Peetrik

Zen65 wrote: »

Thickness is a problem if you always train with a 1cm extension on your arm, and then try to hit somebody for real in self-defence with that 1cm missing.

Its not a problem if you're aiming for the back of their head. What would be much worse would be getting used to pulled punches so you don't split your knuckles open every time you spar or slow telegraphed punches so that your sparring partner has time to get out of the way.

Cork24

I have trained in Thai boxing, aikido, hapkido, karate, judo and ninjutsu I have also tried my hand on krav maga
I could stay here all night talking about each and every one of their cons as an art but this is not what the debate is about, but what I do know is that every art teaches they students how to punch be it with or without gloves.
And by far the most affect of them all was Hapkido they teach you ways of throwing people that judo does not how to break a guys are while he is being throwing, as far as the punching it's the same as karate turning the fist to get more power the can lead to injury, krav maga on the other hand took the punch from Wing chun.. And by far the most affect form of punching. Learning how to punch with power is not the key it's how fast and how many punches you can throw with little energy.
This is the punching style below from Wing chun

smacl

My preference in training is to use fingerless MMA style gloves, for a number of reasons;

- They allow for a mix of striking and grappling
- Your knuckles aren't going to be in bits when you do a lot of padwork
- A missed technique with a bit too much contact is less likely to do permanent damage to the person on the receiving end
- You can practice safely with a reasonable level of contact, and get used to that contact on both the delivering and receiving ends. Nothing develops your guard like getting a knocks.

Back in my karate days (late 80s) we used to use very light mitts, but I've seen some pretty nasty injuries in supposedly light contact competition (e.g. broken cheek bone). The problem I'd see with bare knuckle practice is that you're likely to either have more injuries than is necessary, or avoid contact. Avoiding contact IMHO makes it very difficult to establish good technique, and impossible to refine it for use in a live environment.

Gumbi

Cork24 wrote: »

I have trained in Thai boxing, aikido, hapkido, karate, judo and ninjutsu I have also tried my hand on krav maga
I could stay here all night talking about each and every one of their cons as an art but this is not what the debate is about, but what I do know is that every art teaches they students how to punch be it with or without gloves.
And by far the most affect of them all was Hapkido they teach you ways of throwing people that judo does not how to break a guys are while he is being throwing, as far as the punching it's the same as karate turning the fist to get more power the can lead to injury, krav maga on the other hand took the punch from Wing chun.. And by far the most affect form of punching. Learning how to punch with power is not the key it's how fast and how many punches you can throw with little energy.
This is the punching style below from Wing chun

I think you mean "effective". Do practitioners of hapkido practise full contact sparring? I don't really know how you can judge striking's effectiveness without doing this first.

Peetrik

I can't believe someone hasn't used this yet in their argument

Plastikman_eire

Hang on...so there is more to making a fist than just, ya know, closing your hand?

CianRyan

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Hang on...so there is more to making a fist than just, ya know, closing your hand?

To the best of my understanding, yes.
I was doing it wrong for years.

Zen65

Peetrik wrote: »

Its not a problem if you're aiming for the back of their head.

Hitting somebody on the back of their head is not self-defence really, is it? And how long do you have to wait for them to turn away?







(Yes, I do know what you mean. . . just having a bit of fun!)



Z