Boiler Problem After a Service.

crosstownk

I've an Ideal ICOS 24HE. It's regularly serviced and has been running trouble free for over 5 years.

I had it serviced yesterday. I wasn't there when the service guy called.

When I got home the boiler had locked out and was flashing an error code - F L - which indicates a flame fault according to the manual.

I called the service guy last night and he called back to me at 8am this morning. He spent almost 4 hours with it and no success.

Here's what happens: When I start the boiler it fires up for few seconds and then stops. It does this three times and then the fault code flashes again.

BUT when the service man has the sealing panel removed the boiler runs absolutely perfectly and the minute he places the sealing panel in position the boiler locks out again.

He checked for wires that may have been pinched and shorting when the panel was in position, he removed the condensate trap and ensured that the condensate drain was clear, he refilled the trap with water but nothing worked. He also rang the Ideal Technical Helpline and they reckoned that the boiler is being starved of air when the panel is in place. This makes no sense to me as the boiler takes its air supply from outside via the flue.

Has anyone encountered this before and if so, what's the solution?

The service guy is suggesting replacing a component but I'm not so sure as the boiler runs perfectly when the panel is removed.

Any suggestions welcome. In the meantime I'll buy a bag of coal...............

gdavis

venturi,flue blocked,aps,fan ?

crosstownk

gdavis wrote: »

venturi,flue blocked,aps,fan ?

Fan is OK.

If the flue was blocked or something was amiss with the venturii, surely the boiler would not fire at all.

In short, why does the boiler run perfectly with the sealing panel removed but as soon as the panel is put in place it stops burning?

sullzz

crosstownk wrote: »

Fan is OK.

If the flue was blocked or something was amiss with the venturii, surely the boiler would not fire at all.

In short, why does the boiler run perfectly with the sealing panel removed but as soon as the panel is put in place it stops burning?

Because its taking air for combustion from the room rather than outside , your boiler is room sealed .

shane0007

crosstownk wrote: »

Fan is OK.

If the flue was blocked or something was amiss with the venturii, surely the boiler would not fire at all.

In short, why does the boiler run perfectly with the sealing panel removed but as soon as the panel is put in place it stops burning?

Definitely air issue. Air restricted but enough getting through with cover off bypassing restriction. I would be looking at from fan to flue terminal.

sullzz

Was this issue there before the service

crock!

When the panel is off it pulling air from inside but when panel is on its shutting down.it sounds like a joint gone in the flue.it may be recycling bad air.

crosstownk

sullzz wrote: »

Because its taking air for combustion from the room rather than outside , your boiler is room sealed .

Agreed. It shouldn't be taking air from the room but from outside via the flue. Should air from the room be even entering the intake of the boiler?

shane0007 wrote: »

Definitely air issue. Air restricted but enough getting through with cover off bypassing restriction. I would be looking at from fan to flue terminal.

Yep - air issue seems to be the most likely explanation. Why, with the cover off, would room air be able to enter the intake? As far as I'm aware, all air for combustion should be coming from the twin flue.

sullzz wrote: »

Was this issue there before the service

No. The boiler was perfect until the service. What could the guy have done, inadvertently or otherwise to cause this fault?

crock! wrote: »

When the panel is off it pulling air from inside but when panel is on its shutting down.it sounds like a joint gone in the flue.it may be recycling bad air.

OK. Maybe so. Why did this happen immediately following a service? How common are flue faults of this nature?

The service dude rang me earlier to tell me that I may need a new air pressure sensor. Having consulted the manual, my boiler doesn't have any such component

Thanks for all your suggestions so far. I can't help feeling that this is something simple and, hopefully, obvious.

It's also possible that if any combustion settings were altered on the service the boiler may not like it when the case goes on, but my money would be on a flue issue as mentioned.

I'v never worked on one, if it was a air pressure switch normally you get a air pressure switch fault code, you have a combustion fault code.

crosstownk

gary71 wrote: »

It's also possible that if any combustion settings were altered on the service the boiler may not like it when the case goes on, but my money would be on a flue issue as mentioned.

Thanks, Gary.

Am I right to assume that ALL air intake for combustion should enter via the flue? If air is getting in via the room then there is definitely a leak but I can't hear any 'suction' leak. Even if there is a vacuum leak then the intake flue must be blocked too. Sounds like an awfully unlikely sequence of events to follow a service - or have I missed something in my approach to this problem?

Dtp79

crosstownk wrote: »

Thanks, Gary.

Am I right to assume that ALL air intake for combustion should enter via the flue? If air is getting in via the room then there is definitely a leak but I can't hear any 'suction' leak. Even if there is a vacuum leak then the intake flue must be blocked too. Sounds like an awfully unlikely sequence of events to follow a service - or have I missed something in my approach to this problem?

Is your service guy an RGI? And how long does the service take him?

Micky Dolenz

Defo a primary air issue.

Flue outlet both inside the boiler and outside the property must be check for obstructions.

The panel causes a seal and with it on the boiler is room sealed. with out it the boiler isn't room sealed. You have a problem with your outer flue casing. It is unable to pull in air from outside.

Hence the reason it will fire with case off as it is pulling air from inside the room.

gdavis

did service guy alter gas pressure?

This is about the stability of the flame picture, with the front panel off as mentioned the boiler is getting sufficient air for combustion, closing the panel only allows air to be drawn from the flue which is somehow impacting on the flame picture making it unstable.

If the air/gas ratio is out then when the panel is closed the boiler has less access to air and at times this can be enough to cause problems.

I have found usually this fault on my boilers would be a flue fault and be anything from a blockage of some description to a disconnected flue.

As for is it something the service guy did, untill you know what the fault is you can't say, sometimes bad things happen to good people, On a service once i touched a soldered elbow on the return pipe under a badly fitted wall hung boiler sitting 3 inchs off the floor, as I touched it the elbow popped out as it was never soldered, I then had to watch as the basement flooded with 3 floors worth of heating water, the customer was a well known actress and really pulled off the part of a angry woman, I'll shut up now.

Micky Dolenz

I've serviced a few boilers that i'm sorry I ever looked at . Thankfully 99.9% of the time everything was grand but a few have broke more then my heart.

To be honest, glad to have moved on from that work

crosstownk

Dtp79 wrote: »

Is your service guy an RGI? And how long does the service take him?

It took about 30 mins and he left an RGI form. Then he called back to find a missing tool and went upstairs for some reason and worked on the boiler again. There were about an hour or so between visits. I've just learnt this from the Mrs now. Weird.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Defo a primary air issue.

Flue outlet both inside the boiler and outside the property must be check for obstructions.

The panel causes a seal and with it on the boiler is room sealed. with out it the boiler isn't room sealed. You have a problem with your outer flue casing. It is unable to pull in air from outside.

Hence the reason it will fire with case off as it is pulling air from inside the room.

OK. Makes sense. I can't see any apparent obstruction to the flue intake but that doesn't mean it's blocked where I can't see. The flue is cemented in so I can't really removed it.

This is turning into a nightmare. I'm reluctant to get the same guy back but I need my heating to work.

Micky Dolenz

crosstownk wrote: »

It took about 30 mins and he left an RGI form. Then he called back to find a missing tool and went upstairs for some reason and worked on the boiler again. There were about an hour or so between visits. I've just learnt this from the Mrs now. Weird.




OK. Makes sense. I can't see any apparent obstruction to the flue intake but that doesn't mean it's blocked where I can't see. The flue is cemented in so I can't really removed it.

This is turning into a nightmare. I'm reluctant to get the same guy back but I need my heating to work.

On that boiler you should have a sealed combustion chamber and a sealed outer panel. If after five years, that combustion chamber has been cracked open every year. It is over due a gasket change of the combustion chamber seal. This may not have happened.

Dtp79

crosstownk wrote: »

It took about 30 mins and he left an RGI form. Then he called back to find a missing tool and went upstairs for some reason and worked on the boiler again. There were about an hour or so between visits. I've just learnt this from the Mrs now. Weird.




OK. Makes sense. I can't see any apparent obstruction to the flue intake but that doesn't mean it's blocked where I can't see. The flue is cemented in so I can't really removed it.

This is turning into a nightmare. I'm reluctant to get the same guy back but I need my heating to work.

Service should be at least 1 hour 45

shane0007

crosstownk wrote: »

Thanks, Gary.

Am I right to assume that ALL air intake for combustion should enter via the flue? If air is getting in via the room then there is definitely a leak but I can't hear any 'suction' leak. Even if there is a vacuum leak then the intake flue must be blocked too. Sounds like an awfully unlikely sequence of events to follow a service - or have I missed something in my approach to this problem?

No, the air enters the boiler sealed casing pulled in from the fan and into the mixing tube. With the cover off, it is pulled from the room. When the cover is on, if the air intake is not connected to the fan properly or the flue air intake is blocked, then as the casing is sealed from the room, no air can enter the mixing tube. During the service, the RGI would have removed the fan assembly/air intake to gain assess to the combustion chamber/heat exchanger. This is where the issue may lie.

It could also be as Gary says a combustion issue if any of the combustion settings were changed.
That boiler does not allow adjustment of the gas input pressure as it is determined by the fan speed. If he adjusted the valve settings it can have a detrimental affect on the burner. It also cancels your warranty.

Micky Dolenz

Dtp79 wrote: »

Service should be at least 1 hour 45

That doesn't help the OP though. Power is knowledge. I'm not going to tell him how to fix the problem only what might be wrong so he can discuss it with his service man.

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

Service should be at least 1 hour 45

Service time has nothing to do with this issue.

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Service time has nothing to do with this issue.

Of course it hasn't but maybe if he got somebody who services boilers properly they could help him out on site.

crosstownk

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

That doesn't help the OP though. Power is knowledge. I'm not going to tell him how to fix the problem only what might be wrong so he can discuss it with his service man.

If you know how to fix it then please tell me. I'm technically minded but not stupid enough to mess with something I'm not qualified with - especially with gas involved. I simply want the knowledge not the ability.

Thanks for your help so far.

shane0007

crosstownk wrote: »

If you know how to fix it then please tell me. I'm technically minded but not stupid enough to mess with something I'm not qualified with - especially with gas involved. I simply want the knowledge not the ability.

Thanks for your help so far.

I'm afraid that cannot happen. You will need to get your RGI back to resolve the issue. If he cannot resolve it, he will have to call out the Ideal Service Engineer.

Micky Dolenz

crosstownk wrote: »

If you know how to fix it then please tell me. I'm technically minded but not stupid enough to mess with something I'm not qualified with - especially with gas involved. I simply want the knowledge not the ability.

Thanks for your help so far.

I've worked in the gas industry in the UK and Ireland. When I worked in the UK it wasn't illegal for a home owner to work on their own gas appliances. There were other odd exceptions, I.E, you could have qualifications on gas but not be part of CORGI (the then watch dog for the industry) and still work on appliances as long as you didn't charge for it. That may have changed now, I don't know. No doubt it has with the new GASSAFE regulator.

In Ireland however it is illegal to work on any gas appliance regardless of who owns it or where it is located and regardless of what qualifications you hold. If you are not RGI you can not as much as change a fuse on a boiler spur feed, legally.

I don't make the rules, I am just forced to follow them. As ridiculous as some of them are.

We can't advise you on work arounds or anything outside of IS:813 or more importantly, manufacturers instructions and proper use of their appliance.

There are a few really good service people here who would love to help but can't.Literally our hands are tied.

Get your RGI to talk to the manufacturer tech line or get him to sign up to boards. We have a RGI tech forum here, solely for members of RGI. Proof of membership apply.

crosstownk

crosstownk wrote: »

If you know how to fix it then please tell me. I'm technically minded but not stupid enough to mess with something I'm not qualified with - especially with gas involved. I simply want the knowledge not the ability.

Thanks for your help so far.

My advice would be to ring ideal and get someone who understands the boiler, when there's combustion issues things can at times become quite serious, a RGI who knows the boiler wouldn't be reliant on information from the Internet to put it to bed and if he does tell him to jog on;)

Micky Dolenz

gary71 wrote: »

My advice would be to ring ideal and get someone who understands the boiler, when there's combustion issues things can at times become quite serious, a RGI who knows the boiler wouldn't be reliant on information from the Internet to put it to bed and if he does tell him to jog on;)

Jog on you say?

Thank fcuk you never said that to me or some of my lads when we phoned you :P

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Jog on you say?

Thank fcuk you never said that to me or some of my lads when we phoned you :P

I didn't want to get a infraction, I know what you mods are like, look at poor Shane getting one because he was misunderstood:eek:

crosstownk

Obviously I'm not RGI. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting here.

I appreciate your responses and I will contact the RGI using the info provided. I understand that due to safety regulations your hands are tied.

How can this happen as a result of a service? Is it not the responsibility of a concientious RGI to ensure that the system is fully functional before leaving the site?

Robbie.G

gary71 wrote: »

I didn't want to get a infraction, I know what you mods are like, look at poor Shane getting one because he was misunderstood:eek:

Unfortunately Shane's always misunderstood

sullzz

crosstownk wrote: »

How can this happen as a result of a service? Is it not the responsibility of a concientious RGI to ensure that the system is fully functional before leaving the site?

Yes it is .

shane0007

Robbie.G wrote: »

Unfortunately Shane's always misunderstood

Aye, that I am, that I am.....

Me being a quiet non-argumentative timid shy sort of person, it just ain't fair sometimes, but I have come to learn to deal with it.

Micky Dolenz

crosstownk wrote: »

Obviously I'm not RGI. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting here.

I appreciate your responses and I will contact the RGI using the info provided. I understand that due to safety regulations your hands are tied.

How can this happen as a result of a service? Is it not the responsibility of a concientious RGI to ensure that the system is fully functional before leaving the site?

As sullz says, yes it is, kinda. RGII are only interested in if it was left in a safe state. Sadly, there is no safer gas appliance then one that does not work.

You need to get you service person back and get them on the phone to the manufacturers tech line to help get the problem sorted. I defy any service person here to not hold their hand up and say they were caught out at some point or another with some odd assed anomaly that only happened under certain circumstances.

Your RGI could be the soundest installer and service person but just got caught out on this one in a thousand. Unfortunately that one in a thousand was you. I know that doesn't help. But I've been there myself a few times, where I was baffled with a problem, thankfully I had built up support around me for help. Younger RGI's take note.

Robbie.G

shane0007 wrote: »

Aye, that I am, that I am.....

Me being a quiet non-argumentative timid shy sort of person, it just ain't fair sometimes, but I have come to learn to deal with it.

Some day Shane people will see that you were right all along
And if you believe that carp you'll believe anything

shane0007

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As sullz says, yes it is, kinda. RGII are only interested in if it was left in a safe state. Sadly, there is no safer gas appliance then one that does not work.

You need to get you service person back and get them on the phone to the manufacturers tech line to help get the problem sorted. I defy any service person here to not hold their hand up and say they were caught out at some point or another with some odd assed anomaly that only happened under certain circumstances.

Your RGI could be the soundest installer and service person but just got caught out on this one in a thousand. Unfortunately that one in a thousand was you. I know that doesn't help. But I've been there myself a few times, where I was baffled with a problem, thankfully I had built up support around me for help. Younger RGI's take note.

Couldn't be put better.

crosstownk

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As sullz says, yes it is, kinda. RGII are only interested in if it was left in a safe state. Sadly, there is no safer gas appliance then one that does not work.

You need to get you service person back and get them on the phone to the manufacturers tech line to help get the problem sorted.

Well he certainly left it 'safe' so.

I called the Ideal Tech Help today and put the RGI on the phone to them. He was dismissive of their suggestions to some extent although he did address the condensate drain as per their recommendation. He did, however, dismiss a flue issue as he 'didn't touch the flue'.

I will contact the RGI tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the sound (but cold:D) advice.

Micky Dolenz

If they cracked the combustion chamber open, it most certainly is an internal combustion gasket issue, or at least the first thing I would look at. I know they get a bit brittle with age and should be changed every 3-5 years. Every other year on some HE's

I'd pull the manual out but to be honest it's quite late where I am.

And to add, it would be worth asking your service person to ring the local service agent for that make. or ring the local supplier of the boiler to get their number. These people nearly only work on that make of boiler and a phone call can save a lot of time and hassle. I know as I've done it, more then a few times. Thanks lads

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As sullz says, yes it is, kinda. RGII are only interested in if it was left in a safe state. Sadly, there is no safer gas appliance then one that does not work.

You need to get you service person back and get them on the phone to the manufacturers tech line to help get the problem sorted. I defy any service person here to not hold their hand up and say they were caught out at some point or another with some odd assed anomaly that only happened under certain circumstances.

Your RGI could be the soundest installer and service person but just got caught out on this one in a thousand. Unfortunately that one in a thousand was you. I know that doesn't help. But I've been there myself a few times, where I was baffled with a problem, thankfully I had built up support around me for help. Younger RGI's take note.

You are absolutely right and I find myself in that position often, it's easy to sit in judgement when Im sitting on my fat arse messing with me iPad but I do get nervous when it comes to combustion issues on HE boilers, but there's always a answer and the RGI hasn't walked away, every RGI is accountable so I'm sure he will get it sorted.

Micky Dolenz

gary71 wrote: »

You are absolutely right and I find myself in that position often, it's easy to sit in judgement when Im sitting on my fat arse messing with me iPad but I do get nervous when it comes to combustion issues on HE boilers, but there's always a answer and the RGI hasn't walked away, every RGI is accountable so I'm sure he will get it sorted.

And how many decent RGI's phoned you looking to get a customer sorted?. I know your phone is always off or at least it was .But you never failed to call back.

I will always take my hat off to you for ringing me or my lads back. You helped us out of a hole more then trice . Mechanics have the advantage of saying "your car isn't ready yet, don't bother calling" over the phone.
But We are standing in your fecking kitchen

Robbie.G

They are the reasons we all need a network of colleagues to call when we need some help and all of us need it everynow and then

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

And how many decent RGI's phoned you looking to get a customer sorted?. I know your phone is always off or at least it was .But you never failed to call back.

I will always take my hat off to you for ringing me or my lads back. You helped us out of a hole more then trice . Mechanics have the advantage of saying "your car isn't ready yet, don't bother calling" over the phone.
But We are standing in your fecking kitchen

Two types of engineers in the world, those who can look a customer in the eye and say "i'm very sorry, I don't have the answer at the moment, but I will do my best for you to find the answer" and those who pretend to know, leave the front case slightly ajar so the boiler fires and says" there you go, all sorted, that will be €80".

I put a lot of effort into helping the first as I was/am helped and detest the second who should be sitting in a cell if RGII done their job with a big fella called Bubber who has a thing for naughty gasmen.

There is a very good reason why my phone is off, I don't take it into jobs with me, I think it's bad form being on the phone when I'm fixing boilers, that and I want to see what someone wants, then look up the answer and make out I knew it off the top of my head:cool:

shane0007

gary71 wrote: »

that and I want to see what someone wants, then look up the answer and make out I knew it off the top of my head:cool:

So that's how you do it!
& I used to think you were so tall!!!
Hmmm.....

shane0007

shane0007 wrote: »

So that's how you do it!

Yep, I just read the manual:D

shane0007

gary71 wrote: »

Yep, I just read the manual:D

I must send you over some manufacturer's manuals to decipher! Immergas comes to mind as just one but there are many many more.

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

I must send you over some manufacturer's manuals to decipher! Immergas comes to mind as just one but there are many many more.

The immergas manual is grand.... If you can translate it!

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

The immergas manual is grand.... If you can translate it!

No they have their own RVR Irish version in Queen's English. I actually prefer the Italian version!

crosstownk

I just spoke with RGI who tells me that he has been discussing the problem with Ideal in UK and he will get back to me this afternoon but he does think somethings amiss with the flue.

I'll update as I hear more...................

sullzz

shane0007 wrote: »

No they have their own RVR Irish version in Queen's English. I actually prefer the Italian version!

Yeah you posted a link for me before for a victrix , I clicked the " thank" button couldn't find the " thanks but its f****n useless " button .

crosstownk

All sorted now. A different service guy called today (from the same company, I assume).

He noticed that a gasket behind the sump cover had not been refitted during the service. It was lying on the shelf below the boiler.

Fair play to him for being honest - I'm sure there's a selection of cowboys who would have spun some story and tried to charge more money. I do appreciate his honesty and I'm sure it was a genuine mistake on behalf of the first service guy. No real harm done.

The gasket that was missing is the one behind item no.3 in the attached photo. Can one of you experts please tell me how this missing gasket caused the flame fault when the sealing panel was refitted?



Boiler running perfectly for the last hour or so and house now coming back to a more pleasant temperature.

As a guess it may of been that the lack of a gasket was enough to effect the stability of the flame picture or it was cycling it's own products of combustion.