Teachers being paid on the double

Boombastic

This is a piece is from yesterdays Irish Times


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2013/0212/1224329941631.html

Every year hundreds of language teachers around the country leave their classrooms to conduct oral examinations for the Leaving Cert in other schools. There’s logic to this: students do not want to be examined by their own teachers, nor should they be. The obvious people to conduct the exams are the teachers themselves, who know the syllabus backwards and have a good sense of where a student at this level should be. Therefore it makes sense to do this annual shuffle between schools.

What does not make sense is the fact that language teachers are paid extra for their trouble. Not just mileage or expenses, but an hourly rate over and above their teaching salary. Almost €40 an hour, in fact. So, while these teachers are being paid to teach in one school, they are off earning extra money conducting exams in another. It’s double jobbing, in essence, but it’s sanctioned and bankrolled by the Department of Education. In other words, the taxpayer.
______________________________________________________



It's not just language teachers (although they get the time out of their classroom) Any teacher who supervises and corrects exams gets extra payment. It's time that these extra payments are cut. Assessing students work should be a incorporated in to their routine work and the dates of the oral exams moved to during the holiday period


In 2011 €30 million was being paid to teachers for supervising and marking exams, with nearly 9,000 teachers a year taking part.




Should this not be included as part of their salary and job? They are being paid on the double along with the tax payer footing the bill for the temporary teacher.

hyperborean

Haha, you do know that the government is full of teachers? NOthing will happen with the teaching gravy train.

Dravokivich

But when they are giving/supervising/correcting exams, they aren't teaching. This was a big thing regarding the teachers strikes some 12 years back.

HondaSami

OP do you think they should go to other schools to conduct the exams and not get paid?

Lando Griffin

Boombastic wrote: »

This is a piece is from yesterdays Irish Times


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2013/0212/1224329941631.html

Every year hundreds of language teachers around the country leave their classrooms to conduct oral examinations for the Leaving Cert in other schools. There’s logic to this: students do not want to be examined by their own teachers, nor should they be. The obvious people to conduct the exams are the teachers themselves, who know the syllabus backwards and have a good sense of where a student at this level should be. Therefore it makes sense to do this annual shuffle between schools.

What does not make sense is the fact that language teachers are paid extra for their trouble. Not just mileage or expenses, but an hourly rate over and above their teaching salary. Almost €40 an hour, in fact. So, while these teachers are being paid to teach in one school, they are off earning extra money conducting exams in another. It’s double jobbing, in essence, but it’s sanctioned and bankrolled by the Department of Education. In other words, the taxpayer.
______________________________________________________



It's not just language teachers (although they get the time out of their classroom) Any teacher who supervises and corrects exams gets extra payment. It's time that these extra payments are cut. Assessing students work should be a incorporated in to their routine work and the dates of the oral exams moved to during the holiday period


In 2011 €30 million was being paid to teachers for supervising and marking exams, with nearly 9,000 teachers a year taking part.




Should this not be included as part of their salary and job? They are being paid on the double along with the tax payer footing the bill for the temporary teacher.

When I was doing my french oral, I told the examiner my father was a horse and there were 4 of him.:pac:

Boombastic

Dravokivich wrote: »

But when they are giving/supervising/correcting exams, they aren't teaching. This was a big thing regarding the teachers strikes some 12 years back.

Surely assessing pupils work is a core part of teaching?

Boombastic

HondaSami wrote: »

OP do you think they should go to other schools to conduct the exams and not get paid?

They should get mileage & expenses. They are already getting paid their salary. They should not receive this extra payment.

Prodigious

They're getting paid during the summer holidays (while not teaching) and then they get paid extra for supervising and correcting. Ludicrous stuff.

Fratton Fred

HondaSami wrote: »

OP do you think they should go to other schools to conduct the exams and not get paid?

They should get expenses, but they are already being paid.

They should fall in line with the private sector where ad hoc working at another location is expected.

Boombastic

And that’s not the end of it. Because these teachers (three in total from our school last year) are not available to teach their classes, substitutes must be employed to take their places. These substitutes are also paid, not out of the wages of the double-jobbing teacher but – you guessed it – out of the taxpayer’s pocket.

Dravokivich

Boombastic wrote: »

Surely assessing pupils work is a core part of teaching?

During the year, in preperation for state exams, they do yeah. Not for state exams though.

Boombastic

Dravokivich wrote: »

During the year, in preperation for state exams, they do yeah. Not for state exams though.

They do, they still receive their salary.

vamos!

I am a language teacher and I have conducted the oral exams. I would still examine if the exams were held for a week of the Easter holidays. This would have a negative impact on the students though, as quite a few students take Music, Irish and at least one European Language. They could not be assessed within one week and they can't be assessed during the holy days of Easter week. It is nice to earn extra money, nobody could possibly deny that. After tax, it is nowhere near double pay though. If the school can get a qualified sub (rare as hens teeth during the orals), you can leave your school and let the sub teacher teach and correct for the week. The more likely scenario is that you have to prepare work that is relevant and that can be done without you. This take a huge amount of time. It then has to be corrected when you get back. Also time consuming. Is it not usual for companies like KPM to pay staff allowances when they are abroad representing the company? Oral examiners get their milage paid but don't get to order room service in fancy hotels and don't get to dine out in posh restaurants.

The chemistry teacher who supposedly wrote the article needs to get over themselves. I know teachers in every subject give extra help to students but language teachers spend a lot of extra time conducting practice orals on a one-to-one basis from fifth year onwards. They are even to be found in schools during the Easter break to give the students one last mock exam. The money is great but most examiners are also in it for the experience. If you know the tricks of the exam, you can help your students do better.

2ndcoming

Teachers work for the Dept. of Education.

Exams are operated by the State Examinations Commission.

In any job, if you are to do secondary work for another company, it is a separate, in this case short term, employment contract.

Also worth noting that the vast majority will have 51% of this payment deducted through tax, USC and PRSI.

OP you really need to get a life.

2ndcoming

Boombastic wrote: »

(three in total from our school last year)

There's no way you're a school student and this twisted, and it's hard to believe you're a teacher coming out with this. What exactly do you mean by "our school"?

Boombastic

2ndcoming wrote: »

There's no way you're a school student and this twisted, and it's hard to believe you're a teacher coming out with this. What exactly do you mean by "our school"?

Do you want extra pay for actually reading the article?

HondaSami

Boombastic wrote: »

They should get mileage & expenses. They are already getting paid their salary. They should not receive this extra payment.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They should get expenses, but they are already being paid.

They should fall in line with the private sector where ad hoc working at another location is expected.

Funny how people think it's ok to turn a blind eye when people claim dole and work on the side, why should teachers work extra and not get paid.

Another thread to bash the public service.

Catari Jaguar

hyperborean wrote: »

Haha, you do know that the government is full of teachers? NOthing will happen with the teaching gravy train.

So much of the general public are so bitter and misinformed it actually makes me sad

2ndcoming

Boombastic wrote: »

Do you want extra pay for actually reading the article?

I'm not a teacher, and I don't need to read the article because I try to keep agenda-driven tripe posing as news out of my life thanks all the same.

hyperborean

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

So much of the general public are so bitter and misinformed it actually makes me sad

Poor you, Sad little old you.

Boombastic

2ndcoming wrote: »

I'm not a teacher, and I don't need to read the article because I try to keep agenda-driven tripe posing as news out of my life thanks all the same.

:pac::pac:

humbert

HondaSami wrote: »

Funny how people think it's ok to turn a blind eye when people claim dole and work on the side, why should teachers work extra and not get paid.

Another thread to bash the public service.

No, both situations are clearly wrong. Brilliant retort btw.

Boombastic

humbert wrote: »

No, both situations are clearly wrong. Brilliant retort btw.

And we'll have a bankers and developers post ending with why didn't you become a teacher in 3,2,1........

Sky King

Lando Griffin wrote: »

When I was doing my french oral, I told the examiner my father was a horse and there were 4 of him.:pac:

Is he a harbinger of the apocalypse?

Riddle101

I don't have a problem with teachers being paid to supervise exams in other schools. They're supervising them in their off time, and as well as that they don't work for the school they're supervising in. However I do believe they could cut the pay as well. They're making €40 an hour, why not take it down to €20 an hour.

Oafley Jones

hyperborean wrote: »

Haha, you do know that the government is full of teachers? NOthing will happen with the teaching gravy train.

This line is often brought out and I find it odd. The Dail isn't full of teachers, and solicitors etc. It's full of career politicians. How people can refer to the likes of Micheal Martin as a teacher when he worked at the job for a single year is bizarre.

Prodigious

2ndcoming wrote: »

Teachers work for the Dept. of Education.

Exams are operated by the State Examinations Commission.

In any job, if you are to do secondary work for another company, it is a separate, in this case short term, employment contract.

Also worth noting that the vast majority will have 51% of this payment deducted through tax, USC and PRSI.

OP you really need to get a life.

Sorry Miss, my dog ate it.

humbert

2ndcoming wrote: »

Teachers work for the Dept. of Education.

Exams are operated by the State Examinations Commission.

In any job, if you are to do secondary work for another company, it is a separate, in this case short term, employment contract.

Also worth noting that the vast majority will have 51% of this payment deducted through tax, USC and PRSI.

OP you really need to get a life.

In most companies if you're taking time out of your job to work for a second company you're sacked.

check_six

Oafley Jones wrote: »

This line is often brought out and I find it odd. The Dail isn't full of teachers, and solicitors etc. It's full of career politicians. How people can refer to the likes of Micheal Martin as a teacher when he worked at the job for a single year is bizarre.

Isn't there some weird system where some career TDs who were previously teachers with 20+ years in the Dail are classified as being on a 'career break' from teaching? If memory serves the school is not entitled to a full time teacher until they 'retire' from the job that they don't do (teaching). Also there was some pension entitlement shenaningans.

Maybe this has all been fixed now, maybe this is all in my imagination, but it seems like the kind of crazy thing that could happen...

Boombastic

check_six wrote: »

Isn't there some weird system where some career TDs who were previously teachers with 20+ years in the Dail are classified as being on a 'career break' from teaching? If memory serves the school is not entitled to a full time teacher until they 'retire' from the job that they don't do (teaching). Also there was some pension entitlement shenaningans.

Maybe this has all been fixed now, maybe this is all in my imagination, but it seems like the kind of crazy thing that could happen...

A bit off topic but it might explain why they are slow to push for reform
01 MARCH 2011
TEACHERS will still make up the largest professional group in the 31st Dail -- despite an increase in TDs with more varied backgrounds.............................................Under changes being introduced by the Department of Education, newly elected teacher-TDs and senators will be able to keep their old jobs open for up to 10 years in future.

However, the teachers-turned-politicians will not be able to chalk up both teaching and Oireachtas pensions at the same time.

Blondini

Hi guys.
Teacher here.
On my third cup of tea.
Mid-term break you know.
Continue please.
Bye.

Duggys Housemate

On the other hand teachers don't charge for homework correction at home. Its a double edged sword, this.

Prodigious

Are you for real?

Duggys Housemate

Methememb wrote: »

Are you for real?

Who are you quoting sonny boy?

Dj Grimreefer

I'd happily let a teacher from another school give me oral

Boombastic

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

On the other hand teachers don't charge for homework correction at home. Its a double edged sword, this.

22 hours / week contact time with pupils leaves 17 hours planning and correction time;)

Duggys Housemate

Boombastic wrote: »

22 hours / week contact time with pupils leaves 17 hours planning and correction time;)

Which isn't enough as far as I can see from teachers I know.

Boombastic

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Which isn't enough as far as I can see from teachers I know.

They're unorganised

Wompa1

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Which isn't enough as far as I can see from teachers I know.

Jaysus, the one's you know must be pretty inefficient! Or just not very good at their jobs which means needing to re-check things a bunch of times. As you gain experience, you should get quicker and quicker...no?

Duggys Housemate

Wompa1 wrote: »

Jaysus, the one's you know must be pretty inefficient! Or just not very good at their jobs which means needing to re-check things a bunch of times. As you gain experience, you should get quicker and quicker...no?

I have no idea. Corrections seem to happen at night, as far as I can see.

Dj Grimreefer

Our horticultural teacher used to lettuce get cabbaged, it was a turnup for the books to say the least, in fairness it was all the sage at the tyme

kraggy

Boombastic wrote: »

They're unorganised

Now you're clearly talking through your hole.

You think that corrections, writing exams, doing reports, filing schemes of work, semester plans, yearly plans, student reports for parent meetings etc can be done in a normal 40 hour week and that teachers don't bring work home?

What exactly is your agenda here? Were you scolded by your teacher lately or something?

Wompa1

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I have no idea. Corrections seem to happen at night, as far as I can see.

Goes with the territory. One of my primary school teachers corrected homework in the school after we left at 3. He'd usually be finished by 5 at least. Still a shorter day than most.

Secondary school teachers don't tend to have classes all throughout the school day. There's "free" periods. Also, if you get off at 4 and stay in 2-3 hours, you'd be out by 6:30-7. When you start at 9am. That ain't bad...

Capt'n Midnight

hyperborean wrote: »

Haha, you do know that the government is full of teachers? NOthing will happen with the teaching gravy train.

Teachers ?
Check out how many publicans and lawyers are setting up stuff for their ilk

Dick Turnip

Right, so I agree that teachers for Oral exams shouldn't be getting paid on top of their salary for doing these exams seeing as they are as a result not able to teach their own classes during these times. They should get expenses & mileage though.

However, why wouldn't they get paid for supervising and correcting the state exams during their holidays? Only a portion of teachers are needed to supervise the exams, even less correct them I'd imagine. If I was a teacher why would I give up weeks of my holidays for no pay and supervise exams when most of my colleagues were finishing up for the summer in June?

Also, somebody said above they're getting paid for doing nothing during the summer. It's called an annual salary, it's just split into bi-weekly payments. I'm on a salary, I get paid monthly, I took 2 weeks off in a row last summer but still got paid during it :eek: I really hate that argument. If it appeases you let's pay them only from September to June, they're still going to get the same amount per year though.

btw - I'm not a teacher - work in the private sector. I'm the son of one though.

Boombastic

kraggy wrote: »

Now you're clearly talking through your hole.

You think that corrections, writing exams, doing reports, filing schemes of work, semester plans, yearly plans, student reports for parent meetings etc can be done in a normal 40 hour week and that teachers don't bring work home?

What exactly is your agenda here? Were you scolded by your teacher lately or something?

What has any of that got to do with being paid extra to supervise and correct exams?


You are also forgetting that they are only in contact with the students for 26 weeks of the year so there is plenty of time for yearly plans, student reports etc

c_man

kraggy wrote: »

Now you're clearly talking through your hole.

You think that corrections, writing exams, doing reports, filing schemes of work, semester plans, yearly plans, student reports for parent meetings etc can be done in a normal 40 hour week and that teachers don't bring work home?

What exactly is your agenda here? Were you scolded by your teacher lately or something?

Yearly plans, semester plans... seems like the kind of thing that one could do if you had say a Summer off each year.

juan.kerr

This is a national disgrace.

It's no coincidence that Dail Eireann is full of teachers...

OP, I'll see your double and raise you one. I wonder how many of these teachers are (early) retired, claiming handsome pensions, back teaching and doing this?

IceFjoem

Wompa1 wrote: »

Goes with the territory. One of my primary school teachers corrected homework in the school after we left at 3. He'd usually be finished by 5 at least. Still a shorter day than most.

Secondary school teachers don't tend to have classes all throughout the school day. There's "free" periods. Also, if you get off at 4 and stay in 2-3 hours, you'd be out by 6:30-7. When you start at 9am. That ain't bad...

It depends on the subject tbh. An art and religion teacher might have 2 hours of marking and preparation to do after school whereas a languages teacher, English especially, could have 4-5 hours of marking and prep to do daily. The best teachers, the ones who really care about their student's results, especially those with 3rd and 6th years, can find themselves working till 8.30 most nights with plenty of marking left over for the weekends.

It also depends on the school and class sizes. A lot of teachers have taken early retirement in the last year or so as to maximize their pensions before the cutbacks. The teachers who are left have had to take on extra classes which inevitably leads to more marking and prep work.

At the end of the day it's a relatively stable enough job, but I feel teachers are disproportionately demonized.

hyperborean

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Teachers ?
Check out how many publicans and lawyers are setting up stuff for their ilk

Aya, its endemic in this country, take care of your own :pac:

Fratton Fred

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Right, so I agree that teachers for Oral exams shouldn't be getting paid on top of their salary for doing these exams seeing as they are as a result not able to teach their own classes during these times. They should get expenses & mileage though.

However, why wouldn't they get paid for supervising and correcting the state exams during their holidays? Only a portion of teachers are needed to supervise the exams, even less correct them I'd imagine. If I was a teacher why would I give up weeks of my holidays for no pay and supervise exams when most of my colleagues were finishing up for the summer in June?

Also, somebody said above they're getting paid for doing nothing during the summer. It's called an annual salary, it's just split into bi-weekly payments. I'm on a salary, I get paid monthly, I took 2 weeks off in a row last summer but still got paid during it :eek: I really hate that argument. If it appeases you let's pay them only from September to June, they're still going to get the same amount per year though.

btw - I'm not a teacher - work in the private sector. I'm the son of one though.

Teachers get about 90 day's paid holiday a year. Giving up three weeks of that to mark exams still leaves them with three times more holidays than most people.