Cameras in the workplace + detailed monitoring of work

Marty McFly

Hi

Sorry if this has been done to death before but done a check and couldnt find any recent thread.

Basically I work in a printing company were basically every angle is covered in camera on the press floor and outside of the building, we have been told its for security reasons on the press floor but its really not cameras have been moved anytime a new press has come in to focus on our main working areas, in the office part of the building there are no cameras, wondering what is our legal rights? Even had the boss check the camera replay in front of me one night nothing was stolen etc it was about a fellow employee and when he realised what he was doing kid of stuttered over himself and stopped doing it.


Also now they have installed a new system were they can check our work down to the last detail as in speed we are running the press, if were stopped how long were stopped for, production percentage over the coarse of a twelve hour shift, how many sheets we ran etc what is the legallity of this?

Both this new system and cameras can be checked at anytime by our bosses by simply logging on to there laptop at home.

Thanks in advance.

bbam

It's pretty common in more technologically advanced companies.
Ability to compare workers to their peers, trace back mistakes to the source and all that.
If its being introduced to a union environment I have no idea how that would work out.
But from a legality perspective it's fine.

Marty McFly

bbam wrote: »

It's pretty common in more technologically advanced companies.
Ability to compare workers to their peers, trace back mistakes to the source and all that.
If its being introduced to a union environment I have no idea how that would work out.
But from a legality perspective it's fine.

I had an idea the new monitoring system would be legal but wanted to be sure, but from what I can see there should be some questions over the cameras in the workplace?

RATM

Nothing illegal about it OP. If someone was using the cameras to perv on someone else then that would be different and on the wrong side of the law (though proving it would be difficult - what is the distinction between looking at someone and perving at someone?). Regardless you on are your employers premises and they have the right to film & record you, either for security/theft purposes or also for productivity purposes.

Tesco just introduced arm monitoring systems in their warehouses so they can track the productivity of employees, Wal-Mart have been doing similar for at least 8 years now. Expect this to become more commonplace and the costs of the technology comes down

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tesco-staff-forced-to-wear-arm-monitors-that-track-work-rate-29060257.html

Marty McFly

Yeh but from what I read there meant to have clear outlines on what the purpose of the cameras is when they install them with talks with staff beforehand?

Also if they have been stated as being installed for security reasons by the company and not to monitor staff then legally they can not be used against staff unless there is a case of theft?

Cheers for all the help so far I just want to make sure I know exactly what is what.

Procrastastudy

I'll just throw a bit of doubt on all this for you and let others substantiate it. (Lazy I know)

I'm pretty sure that the use of CCTV for performance management purposes is a no-no in Ireland. I welcome any pointers to verifiable sources that it isn't but certainly that's the policy several employers I've worked for had.

Nody

Theft would fall under security though; seeing if you're slacking at a machine would not.

Marty McFly

Nody wrote: »

Theft would fall under security though; seeing if you're slacking at a machine would not.

I know that's what I what I was getting at .

Stheno

Marty McFly wrote: »

I know that's what I what I was getting at .

They could claim that they are using it to monitor safety, especially given what you say about them moving it to where presses are etc.

Have they just said it's in relation to security?



From Irish Council of Civil Liberties

Can my employer use close circuit television (CCTV) at work?

Monitoring employees using CCTV without a good reason could be an invasion of privacy. However, there may be good reasons for using CCTV in a workplace, such as preventing theft or protecting employees (for example from a threat of physical harm).

It is best practice if employers and employees reach an agreement about the use of CCTV before it is put in place, including whether there are any alternatives. Employers can only use CCTV footage for the reason for which it was installed. For example, if they installed CCTV to monitor for theft but instead use it to monitor attendance times, that would not be acceptable.

An employer who uses CCTV and records the images must make sure that this is done according to data protection law. Employers should consider the following points:

What will they use the CCTV system for?
Is there another way to achieve the same purpose that does not affect employees’ privacy?
Will they tell employees the purpose of the CCTV before it is set up?
Are there clear signs in the areas that are monitored by CCTV?
Is there a system in place to give copies of the images to an employee who asks for them?

It would not be right to set up CCTV in areas where an employee would expect to have privacy, such as a cloakroom or changing area.

If you have concerns or questions about CCTV in your workplace, you can contact one of the organisations listed at the end of this pack.

Marty McFly

Stheno wrote: »

They could claim that they are using it to monitor safety, especially given what you say about them moving it to where presses are etc.

Have they just said it's in relation to security?



From Irish Council of Civil Liberties

Yeh the boss stated they were there just for security measure's he has been asked about them on a number of occasions by different staff members and has told them they were being paranoid even though we all know they monitor us, despite what he says.


Thanks for the link though.

Stheno

Marty McFly wrote: »

Yeh the boss stated they were there just for security measure's he has been asked about them on a number of occasions by different staff members and has told them they were being paranoid even though we all know they monitor us, despite what he says.


Thanks for the link though.

You're welcome, it's a bit of a catch 22 for you as employees, as security could include stuff like theft, staff tampering with machines etc, the second of which feeds nicely into "observation of staff at work"

i71jskz5xu42pb

Full data protection view here

RATM

Well as the Irish Civil Liberties Union say as quoted above:

"Monitoring employees using CCTV without a good reason could be an invasion of privacy. However, there may be good reasons for using CCTV in a workplace, such as preventing theft or protecting employees (for example from a threat of physical harm)


It would then seem to me that an employer can monitor employees and say it is for health and safety reasons (yes I know, that lovely all encompassing Health & Safety resaon again)

When you think about it though even if the employer said to the employees they are there for theft and a case later came up as to why they were using them to monitor performance then a smart lawyer in such a scenario would simply argue that a situation where employees who are dossing beside machines and not doing the work they are paid to do is tantamount to theft of wages. 'Theft' is a broad word and doesn't necessarily have to refer to an employee stealing physical goods. It can apply to things in your head like intellectual property, knowledge of the business, etc. It is not difficult to see how employees dossing could also be described as theft- the employee is selling his labour to the employer at an hourly rate, if they are not doing the work they said they would do but still accepting a wage for it then by extension they can be said to be stealing from the employer. I could see a judge going along with that assessment and protecting the employers rights not to be stolen from, be it physical goods, intellectual property or work not done but paid for.

All in all no matter what the employers real reasons for using CCTV are it would appear that they always have a legal and valid reason if they just file the reason under security or health and safety or both.

Procrastastudy

RATM wrote: »

When you think about it though even if the employer said to the employees they are there for theft and a case later came up as to why they were using them to monitor performance then a smart lawyer in such a scenario would simply argue that a situation where employees who are dossing beside machines and not doing the work they are paid to do is tantamount to theft of wages.

Firstly the evidence would have to be introduced in a disciplinary.

Smart lawyer on the other side gets damages for breach of fair procedures at EAT.

Even if that's not a possibility, the evidence might well be excluded on grounds of breach of data protection / other rights.

While my assertions above might well be overcome/invalid - it's not a clear cut as coming up with a clever dodge.

Corruptedmorals

I have only ever worked in heavily unionised companies. (retail) Cameras everywhere, especially in the stockrooms. Employee-only areas are NOT monitored on an active basis, they only look back if there has been an incident or suspicion of stock going missing from the stockroom etc. I've heard several times this is the norm.

Even if it is acceptable to monitor staff like that, I personally would not be happy in such an environment. They would probably get better results, and happier more productive staff, if they dropped the suspicious paranoid parent act.

Mrs OBumble

Ahh, managers monitor staff. Doing so is a pretty basic part of a manager's job. guess I'm struggling to see why you have a problem being monitored by camera, which you know is there. Would you have a similar problem with having a manager on the floor watching you all the time in person? At least with CCTV there's playback and objectivity, as opposed to just what the manager thinks they saw.


(Yeah, being kinda devil's advocate'y here ... but really I'm not sure what the problem is.)

Procrastastudy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, managers monitor staff. Doing so is a pretty basic part of a manager's job. guess I'm struggling to see why you have a problem being monitored by camera, which you know is there. Would you have a similar problem with having a manager on the floor watching you all the time in person? At least with CCTV there's playback and objectivity, as opposed to just what the manager thinks they saw.


(Yeah, being kinda devil's advocate'y here ... but really I'm not sure what the problem is.)

There's monitoring and then there's big brother.

There's making sure employees aren't slacking off then there is making sure people don't lean up against something for a quick rest.

It's all a matter of degree.

Are they recording sound too? This would be illegal.

Marty McFly

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, managers monitor staff. Doing so is a pretty basic part of a manager's job. guess I'm struggling to see why you have a problem being monitored by camera, which you know is there. Would you have a similar problem with having a manager on the floor watching you all the time in person? At least with CCTV there's playback and objectivity, as opposed to just what the manager thinks they saw.


(Yeah, being kinda devil's advocate'y here ... but really I'm not sure what the problem is.)

As already said its the big brother effect, its the feeling your every single last move is being watched, they have no reason to be monitoring there staff there has never been an incident which required it, work gets done in fact there more productivity on night shifts than day shifts because it less hectic and more organized so most staff feel aggrieved by it, the fact they can log on from home only increases the paranoia as they can be watching at anytime, so you decide rest for two seconds by leaning against something they log on see you and automatically think you are a lazy sod, that along with the new system gives it the feeling your almost working in a prison.

Basically there paranoia is driving the staffs paranoia which in turn is creating an unhappy workforce.

Karsini wrote: »

Are they recording sound too? This would be illegal.

We have no idea if they are or not but people have beenwondering whether this is the case or not.