The Heaslip Captaincy - a mistake?

The Guardian

In my opinion it was.
If Deccie was intent in freshening things up, that is fair enough.
However, Heaslip should not have been the chosen one (imo)
I dont believe he will be a starter for ireland at the next WC
Plus, even in the here-and-now he has no leadership skills
Plus plus, he is a poor stateman. And rarely gives a good interview.
In fact, I am struggling to see what he has going for him as a Captain of Ireland.
SOB and POM would have been far better candidates, if as every one else suggests the captain must come from that row.
My captain would be Sexton, for the record, by the way.

irishbucsfan

Certainly not the hair of a captain. Burn him at the stake

d-gal

100% agree, terrible candidate, its bad when POM spoke more than him, as well as Best and of course BOD. I'd love a combo of POM, SOB and Henry (POM at 8) and have either Best or Sexton as captain.
Heaslip is fantastic for Leinster but he is average for Ireland. Not a captain!

Teferi

Judging a captaincy after 2 games.

Cop onto yourselves.

The Guardian

Autumn series...
leinster 'input'
all to be considered
he is not an appropriate captain of ireland

Teferi

Let's call a spade a spade here - the main ones calling for his head seem to be a certain type of fan who don't like the haircut, the headphones, the movember tache, the twitter banter etc.

None of it is to do with his game or his leadership even though they're trying to make it out to be.

Please though - continue. It's a good way of knowing who to use the filter on.

heybaby

Totally agree, absolutely the wrong candidate on every level. Primarily as a player he simply isnt good enough to be captain, compared to BOD and POC he is an average player at best as was evidenced yesterday when he was responsible for 4 errors including two knock ons, you would rarely ever see bod or POC make one error never mind 4 in one game. Theres an inherent flippant quality about him too. I remember in the recent autumn series he was interviewed post match and couldnt hide his sarcasm when asked a straightforward question about the sides performance. He is also a poor communicator who ironically seems more interested in tweeting than sharing his thoughts pre or post match. They should have given the captaincy to someone like Rory best who has a maturity that heaslip quite clearly lacks.

Teferi

Teferi wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here - the main ones calling for his head seem to be a certain type of fan who don't like the haircut, the headphones, the movember tache, the twitter banter etc.

posted 1 minute before...

heybaby wrote: »

Totally agree, absolutely the wrong candidate on every level. Primarily as a player he simply isnt good enough to be captain, compared to BOD and POC he is an average player at best as was evidenced yesterday when he was responsible for 4 errors including two knock ons, you would rarely ever see bod or POC make one error never mind 4 in one game. Theres an inherent flippant quality about him too. I remember in the recent autumn series he was interviewed post match and couldnt hide his sarcasm when asked a straightforward question about the sides performance. He is also a poor communicator who ironically seems more interested in tweeting than sharing his thoughts pre or post match. They should have given the captaincy to someone like Rory best who has a maturity that heaslip quite clearly lacks.

I'm doing the lotto lads. I'm clearly psychic.

jm08

Paul O'Connell will be back shortly (and he is aiming to be around for the next world cup). His presence on the pitch should help.

I wouldn't be too harsh on Heaslip - early days yet.

Kayless

Personally I think it should have been given to Rory Best, I also think Henry would make a really good captain

Pudsy33

Had we have beaten england, this would be a non issue. Admittedly he made a few bad errors, but he's human after all. Give them man time to grow into the role. Obviously the way he carries himself on a day to day basis in training has impressed both Kidney and Schmidt. A captain doesn't need to roar at people.

People criticising his hair, headphones and interviews are really reaching to be honest.

opinionatedfan

Personally wouldnt have stripped BOD, but Heaslip was a logical choice as a successor.

heybaby

Teferi wrote: »

posted 1 minute before...



I'm doing the lotto lads. I'm clearly psychic.

Lets split your winnings I dont rate Heaslip as a captain fullstop. BOD is on twitter as well, that doesnt bother me, probably because as a player he is fairly flawless. Heaslip's form as a player mirrors ireland's , very good on accasion but more often than not frustratingly poor, as he was yesterday. A little less time on twitter and in harvey norman selecting headphones for his team mates and a little more than on the training ground might benefit him and ireland. As for BOD he can tweet as much as he likes

heybaby

The last word with matt cooper is now discussing the very topic

Phonehead

Blame Heaslip and ignore the fact that the gameplan was completely wrong, are people really that naive in thinking that with players like BOD and Best on the field they don't have any input into leading and motivating just because they aren't given the title of Captain? No matter who was captain yesterday the game was over before a ball was kicked.

CatFromHue

I find it very difficult from the outside looking in to gauge how Heaslip, or anyone, gets on as Captain for Ireland. I've no access to the team meetings, training, or the hotel.

I can only judge on what I see on the pitch.

What I see is a player who is secure in his position, is experienced at International level, so far has made mostly the right choices on the pitch (I think it was a good idea to kick for goal for the one ROG missed), he conducts himself well from what I hear at sponsor events and the like, and appears to have the respect of his team mates.

Just because others speak in a group huddle on the pitch doesn't mean they're usurping Heaslip. In teams I've played with the Captain was never the only person to speak and usually it was a combination of the Senior players.

bilston

I always felt Best was the man to take us forward and had he been fit in November my guess is that he would be captain now.

However I think the knives are out for Heaslip because he had a poor game yesterday. Unless you are actually on the pitch it is very hard to know whether the captain is doing a good job or not.

Also Kidney puts a lot of store into his 'leadership group' which apparently consists of Heaslip, Best, Ryan and Sexton and I'm sure O'Driscoll still has a major influence on things so I don't buy the argument that there is a lack of leadership.

Lets not write him off just yet.

mathepac

I have to agree I'm afraid; the mantle of captain ill-fits Heaslip's broad shoulders. It seems to me he hasn't the head, the maturity nor the personality for the job.

If BOD is out of contention then it has to be a forward IMHO - POM Seanie or Mike Mac?

Phonehead

bilston wrote: »

However I think the knives are out for Heaslip because he had a poor game yesterday.

The knives are out because George Hook decided he would take issue with Heaslip for not scoring tries and going on big carries like he use to, ignoring the fact that Heaslip is now a one man tackling machine.

opinionatedfan

some absolutely baffling comments

its_phil

I don't think anyone has any idea who should be captain. It's not about whether or not he is good in the eyes of the public, it is all about how he is seen in the dressing room.

The only way you can judge a captain from our point of view is his decision making. I haven't seen anything to make me think he is a bad captain, so I am more than happy to have him there.

Phonehead

its_phil wrote: »

I don't think anyone has any idea who should be captain. It's not about whether or not he is good in the eyes of the public, it is all about how he is seen in the dressing room.

It's not about the Captain, it's about the game plan! Results have been terrible since 2009 even with BOD and POC captaining the side, now all of a sudden when a national hero isn't the Captain it must be their fault because Ireland are failing miserably as usual

Banbridgeman2

Best was the best option but the OTT reaction to Heaslip coming from a certain provinces 'fans' is outrageous. These same fans claim POM was the best player on the pitch with one tackle in 80 minutes. I made this point already but if Heaslip had those tackling stats he'd be burned at the stake by those same 'fans'. The more simple fans still seem to judge backrow players on metres gained (although when Heaslip used to lead that he was called a show pony) ignoring that Heaslip led the tackle, turnover and carry stats. The more and more I think about it the more I think he wasn't actually that bad and I was being manipulated by the constant stream of propaganda coming out of certain 'fans. On more thought he knocked on twice (who didn't) and gave away two harsh penalties. He hardly should be blamed for the defeat and in hindsight was the hardest working player there yesterday. I still can't get over how little has been said of POMs tackling stats, it seems because he belts out the anthems, is young and gets involved in argy bargy he can do no wrong. I think he's becoming dangerously overhyped to be honest. I still think Henry is better

Fishooks13

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Best was the best option but the OTT reaction to Heaslip coming from a certain provinces 'fans' is outrageous. These same fans claim POM was the best player on the pitch with one tackle in 80 minutes. I made this point already but if Heaslip had those tackling stats he'd be burned at the stake by those same 'fans'. The more simple fans still seem to judge backrow players on metres gained (although when Heaslip used to lead that he was called a show pony) ignoring that Heaslip led the tackle, turnover and carry stats. The more and more I think about it the more I think he wasn't actually that bad and I was being manipulated by the constant stream of propaganda coming out of certain 'fans. On more thought he knocked on twice (who didn't) and gave away two harsh penalties. He hardly should be blamed for the defeat and in hindsight was the hardest working player there yesterday. I still can't get over how little has been said of POMs tackling stats, it seems because he belts out the anthems, is young and gets involved in argy bargy he can do no wrong. I think he's becoming dangerously overhyped to be honest. I still think Henry is better

How did i know you'd have a dig :rolleyes: Pathetic attack on POM. The fact that you use him singing the anthem to bash him sums up how pathetic that post is

stupid thread btw. Funny know was calling for Heaslip to be removed when we beat Wales last weekend

Lyaiera

Unless Deccie pulls one out of the bag with results going our way resulting in us winning the championship there'll be a new coach. I wouldn't be surprised if a new coach picks a new captain unless Heaslip really ups his game for the rest of the Six Nations.

Foxtrol

mathepac wrote: »

I have to agree I'm afraid; the mantle of captain ill-fits Heaslip's broad shoulders. It seems to me he hasn't the head, the maturity nor the personality for the job.

If BOD is out of contention then it has to be a forward IMHO - POM Seanie or Mike Mac?

I'm not quite sure if you're joking with those captain selections. None of them would be near it (in the short term anyway) and rightly so.

I dont think BOD should have been stripped of it but Heaslip was the obvious choice when he was.

It's ridiculous to be questioning a guy as captain at this point when he's done very little wrong.

caffrey

As a FAN we can only say what we see and as such I think he is a good candidate. Judging on performances I would go with a player who is consistent in his play both in terms of performance and effort. Additionally I don't think it hurts his cause that he has held down the number 8 position (on merit) over the last few years without much opposition. Further he doesn't seem to get injured much or tire during the game which means he spends a large proportion of the game on the field. So in terms of continuity on the pitch he is a good option also.

Now as a manager, Kidney sees what we can't......maybe he trains exceptionally well, is good for morale, helps with organisation and motivation.

He hasn't been as great as he was a few years ago but I still think he is a fine player who happened to knock on two balls and gave away 2 penalties in our most recent game but give him a chance. I wouldn't have said that heaslip is error prone prior to the latest game, I would go as far as saying his performance was uncharacteristic.

I am not a huge fan of Kidneys and I do question the changing of the captaincy, but if it was moving on then I don't have a problem with heaslip.

bleg

Probably not a mistake, Heaslip just had a shocker. He is overhyped but still a good player and by far our best no. 8.

Teferi

bleg wrote: »

He is overhyped

All I see in any thread are people pointing out how bad he is so this is most definitely not correct.

Foxtrol

bleg wrote: »

Probably not a mistake, Heaslip just had a shocker. He is overhyped but still a good player and by far our best no. 8.

If anything he is the opposite of overhyped.

phog

I wouldn't have replaced BOD yet but if I was then Heaslip would be one of a few that I'd pass the captaincy onto.

While I think Heaslip (the player) was below par yesterday I dont think he's bad captain.

BTW, that's a role he'll grow into and one of the reasons given for the change of captaincy now, give him a chance.

P_1

Slight over reaction to England beating us?

Did we lose because of:

a - Our starting winger and outhalf went off injured in the first half.

b - Our captain happens to have an unusual haircut.


Baffling stuff altogether.

Micky Dolenz

O'Driscoll should have been Captain until he resigned from the position or retired from the game.

It's early days to judge Heaslip but he does seem to have the head for it. I wouldn't be too concerned about his interviews with the media, it's what he says on the pitch and in the dressing room is far more important.

fitz

This thread is great, it's already identified a few people for the ignore list that it probably would have taken another couple of weeks to spot.

Heaslip wasn't anywhere near as bad yesterday as people have been saying.
No, he didn't have a great game, and his mistakes were highly visible, but certain people were just waiting to pounce on any little slip.
Give the guy a break, he's be in the role five minutes ffs...

Chucky the tree

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

O'Driscoll should have been Captain until he resigned from the position or retired from the game.

It's early days to judge Heaslip but he does seem to have the head for it. I wouldn't be too concerned about his interviews with the media, it's what he says on the pitch and in the dressing room is far more important.

It's that kind of attitude that still has ROG in the 22. We needed to move on from BOD as captain.

Micky Dolenz

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's that kind of attitude that still has ROG in the 22. We needed to move on from BOD as captain.

why?

He is the best player we have ever produced. He will be retiring at the end of the season, most likely. As long as he plays he should be captain.

thomond2006

I think the captaincy furore was all a bit overblown tbh. I'm sure BOD was disappointed but I think he's professional enough to get over it after it sank in.

For Paws

Can't be stripping anybody of the captaincy based on one game.
Or on his haircut.
Or on his 'tweets'
(I don't have a Twitter account myself, so I just carry a megaphone around to announce what I'm doing at random times.
I've got three followers so far, but I'm pretty sure two of them are Gardai).

BOD should still be captain. Best should have succeeded him.

But since Jamie has got the nod, I'd like to give him 'til the end of the 6 Nations before calling for his head.
Then again, he could resign.

jm08

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Best was the best option but the OTT reaction to Heaslip coming from a certain provinces 'fans' is outrageous. These same fans claim POM was the best player on the pitch with one tackle in 80 minutes. I made this point already but if Heaslip had those tackling stats he'd be burned at the stake by those same 'fans'. The more simple fans still seem to judge backrow players on metres gained (although when Heaslip used to lead that he was called a show pony) ignoring that Heaslip led the tackle, turnover and carry stats. The more and more I think about it the more I think he wasn't actually that bad and I was being manipulated by the constant stream of propaganda coming out of certain 'fans. On more thought he knocked on twice (who didn't) and gave away two harsh penalties. He hardly should be blamed for the defeat and in hindsight was the hardest working player there yesterday. I still can't get over how little has been said of POMs tackling stats, it seems because he belts out the anthems, is young and gets involved in argy bargy he can do no wrong. I think he's becoming dangerously overhyped to be honest. I still think Henry is better

The stats have been up-dated. POM made 2 tackles. Murray led the tackling for the Irish team with all of 8 tackles. Chris Henry made 1 tackle along with Ronan O'Gara.

From that (and the amount of possession Ireland had), it looks like there wasn't a whole lot of tackling needing to be done.

Banbridgeman2

jm08 wrote: »

The stats have been up-dated. POM made 2 tackles. Murray led the tackling for the Irish team with all of 8 tackles. Chris Henry made 1 tackle along with Ronan O'Gara.

From that (and the amount of possession Ireland had), it looks like there wasn't a whole lot of tackling needing to be done.

Nope Heaslip still leads alongside Murray. Murray attempted most tackles though. So Heaslip led tackles, carries and turnovers. Even Mike Ross managed double the tackles POM did

jm08

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

why?

He is the best player we have ever produced. He will be retiring at the end of the season, most likely. As long as he plays he should be captain.

So how do you think Heislip would fare without the help of Brian O'Driscoll?

For Paws

jm08 wrote: »

The stats have been up-dated. POM made 2 tackles. Murray led the tackling for the Irish team with all of 8 tackles. Chris Henry made 1 tackle along with Ronan O'Gara.

From that (and the amount of possession Ireland had), it looks like there wasn't a whole lot of tackling needing to be done.

Did Chris Henry tackle Ronan O'Gara ?

Did he alone realise what was happening and attempted to drag ROG back off the pitch ?

If so, he has my vote for Captain !

Micky Dolenz

jm08 wrote: »

So how do you think Heislip would fare without the help of Brian O'Driscoll?

Probably a lot better.

jm08

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Nope Heaslip still leads alongside Murray. Murray attempted most tackles though. So Heaslip led tackles, carries and turnovers. Even Mike Ross managed double the tackles POM did

I think you should look at this again.

Murray made 8, missing 1 (8/1).

Heaslip 7/0

You'd expect your No. 8 to make a fair few carries from the back of the scrum.

TO in the espn means that the player got turned over (even O'Gara managed one of them).

See where POM (3) beat a few defenders along with SOB (4).

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/match/133787.html

Grimebox

CatFromHue wrote: »

I find it very difficult from the outside looking in to gauge how Heaslip, or anyone, gets on as Captain for Ireland. I've no access to the team meetings, training, or the hotel.

I can only judge on what I see on the pitch.

What I see is a player who is secure in his position, is experienced at International level, so far has made mostly the right choices on the pitch (I think it was a good idea to kick for goal for the one ROG missed), he conducts himself well from what I hear at sponsor events and the like, and appears to have the respect of his team mates.

Just because others speak in a group huddle on the pitch doesn't mean they're usurping Heaslip. In teams I've played with the Captain was never the only person to speak and usually it was a combination of the Senior players.

Came here to say this. We do not have a clue if he's a good captain or not. We aren't on the pitch with them. Some people are claiming he doesn't have the "personality" to be captain. Absolute fruitless, rubbish argument.

jm08

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Probably a lot better.

It was Brian O'Driscoll who was responsible for those extra 3 pts against Wales which came in very handy in the end as Wales were 2 scores away from winning.

Chucky the tree

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

why?

He is the best player we have ever produced. He will be retiring at the end of the season, most likely. As long as he plays he should be captain.

If he is retiring at the end of the season then why keep him as captain? It serves zero long term purpose. Far better off moving on now and giving the new captain even more games so he can get used to the position.

bleg

Foxtrol wrote: »

If anything he is the opposite of overhyped.

Ah here, you have people on this forum putting him on on a pedestal with Parisse, Picamoles and Harinordaquay back in the day. He's not in the same league as those guys. Thus I think he is overhyped.

He's getting unfair criticism at the moment but overall he's not as good or bad as he's made out to be. A decent no. 8 that's the best in the country by a long way.

phog

For Paws wrote: »

Can't be stripping anybody of the captaincy based on one game.
Or on his haircut.
Or on his 'tweets'
(I don't have a Twitter account myself, so I just carry a megaphone around to announce what I'm doing at random times.
I've got three followers so far, but I'm pretty sure two of them are Gardai).

.

I really don't understand this put down of people who have a different view to those that think Heaslip shouldn't be captain. TBH, it's childish.

Teferi

phog wrote: »

I really don't understand this put down of people who have a different view to those that think Heaslip shouldn't be captain. TBH, it's childish.

Look at post number 7 in this thread. You've just been proved wrong.

All the Heaslip dislike is always tinged with him having a twitter profile, popular restaurant etc.

I'd be happy to accept an opinion backed up by facts as to why he is a bad captain or player. Nobody who dislikes him talks any sense so I will not respect their opinion.

salmocab

We beat Wales and we are telling ourselves its a great team again grand slam on the way, a week later we lose to England and its Heaslips fault. The whole team were poor even the guys who played well were below their usual standard. This is not Heaslips fault, this is a problem with the entire set up, coaching, management and lack of real depth in the squad particularly in certain positions.