Wet winter cycling kit experiences

doozerie

Yesterday gave me the opportunity to test some of my cycling kit in the worst combination of Irish weather - cold *and* wet. It was 6.5C when I left home, and 5.1C when I got home. I went down to Hollywood and around the back of the lakes, and it was probably a few degrees colder around there. But that's not particularly cold and I've ridden on colder dry days with the same kit and been fine. But the non-stop rain put a very different complexion on it, as it tends to.

So in case it proves of interest to anyone looking to find cycling kit for those kind of weather conditions, here were my experiences, for a ride of a little over 3.5 hours:

* Feet (Assos WinterPlus (merino) socks, Cannondale neoprene toe covers, Gore Gore-Tex overshoes).
No problems with cold toes, though my feet were soaked before the half-way point of my ride. Gore-Tex overshoes do not keep your feet dry - I never expected them to, as I don't believe any overshoe can really be waterproof, but I was surprised at how much water they let in in a relatively short space of time. Yes the water would have got in through the cleats from puddles on the road, and yes the water would have soaked down through my leggings, but my feet were swimming in so much water that I wonder if it got through the seams of the overshoes too - not that it matters though, I was wearing regular road shoes so the water was always going to get in on such a wet day.
These overshoes are expensive (over UK£60 at their worst) but I bought mine in a sale for about €30 - for that price I'll stick with them in the hope that they'll keep some water out on days which are not as wet, but I certainly wouldn't pay full price for them as all they did yesterday was provide wind protection and you can get that for a lot cheaper from alternative overshoes.

* Legs (Assos WInter LL padded bib tights)
I've had these tights for several years now and they are great. They cover a range of temperatures and although they make no attempt to keep water out, the Airblock material around the knees tends to do a good job of keeping windchill off when they are wet. Yesterday my knees did feel cold at a few points, but that's a rare occurrence with these, and the sensation didn't last long. In the shower at home later my legs were a a mix of colours, the large red patches showing where they'd felt the cold, but I think that would be hard to avoid in yesterday's weather. These tights are expensive but I've been very happy with mine, they fit well (they are a snugger fit than Assos shorts of the same size), they've lasted well, and I'd buy them again if I had to replace them.

* Upper body (Icebreaker 150gsm merino zip-neck long-sleeved base layer, Assos AirJack 851 jacket, Rapha Rain Jacket)
My upper body never felt cold at all. My kit was soaked thourgh when I got home, but I was never conscious of being so wet while on the bike. Good quality merino works well for me as a base layer and I've been happy with the quality of Icebreaker stuff so far. My Assos jacket is brilliant and one of my favourite pieces of cycling kit, it has been going strong for several years now and has well and truly repaid the original purchase cost - not only is it great for regulating temperature, but its 4 rear pockets are incredibly handy when carrying a bunch of stuff on a long winter ride as it means the outer 2 pockets are much easier to access.
This was the first time I've worn the Rapha rain jacket for an entire ride and it worked very well. I was never in danger of over-heating and it appeared to bead water very well. My base layer and Assos jacket were certainly saturated when I got home, so I have to assume that the Rapha layer did let water through (or maybe I was sweating more than I realised), but I was never conscious of that, or uncomfortable. As such it probably functioned mostly as a wind-blocking layer yesterday, but a very good one. The Rapha jacket is expensive, about €240 I think, but I got mine for half that price in one of their sales. For the price I paid I think it's great, but if I were replacing it I'd hesitate to pay full price for it and I'd look at alternatives. Its fit is a strong selling point though so an alternative would have to fit at least as well for me to really consider it.

* Head (Chocolate Fish 190gsm merino beanie)
This beanie is excellent, I wear it every day for my commute despite having several alternatives which I've happily used in the past. It regulates temperature well even once wet, it's comfortable, and it is thin enough to fit easily under a helmet. My head never got cold yesterday despite the beanie being soaked through by the end, and despite my helmet having a lot of ventilation.

* Hands (Assos Winter Glove System - liner, EarlyWinter glove, lobster outer layer)
My hands suffered, my fingers and thumbs were all fairly numb by the time I got home. I've been using these gloves for several years now, so they are not the current/newer version that Assos sell. They work very well in the cold, and are okay in the wet, but really struggle when it's both cold and wet. I still haven't found a good solution for my hands for cold + wet days, these certainly don't provide it.

Obviously these are just my experiences and what works for me in terms of fit/performance/value-for-money/etc might not work for others, and vice versa, but I've found it difficult in the past to find any feedback for cycling kit being used in the kind of conditions we had yesterday so hopefully this info may prove useful to some.

chakattack

I've come to the conclusion that merino baselayers are way overhyped.

I have two (DHB and Endura Baa Baa) and I only use them if everything else is dirty or in the wash.

The warmest of the Helly Hansen and Craft ranges are great, very breathable but toasty.

They're neither particularly warm or breathable. They soak up a lot of sweat and you freeze if you're stopped for a while. The only advantage is they don't smell.

Merino socks from Giro and Castelli are great though. Not too thick and very warm even if water gets past your overshoes.

Seweryn

doozerie wrote: »

Yesterday gave me the opportunity to test some of my cycling kit in the worst combination of Irish weather - cold *and* wet.kit being used in the kind of conditions we had yesterday so hopefully this info may prove useful to some.

Nice review Sir .

Fortunately, we do not experience wet and very cold conditions too often. I found these conditions quite harsh also, especially if the third factor is wind...

Regarding the gloves, did you try the Assos Rain Gloves or other Neoprene type gloves? I use them. They are not perfect (nothing really is), but are OK for rides up to say 1h in that kind of weather.

Feet - I use dedictaed NW Winter cycling shoes. They seem to be waterproof. Obviously they are not (nothing works well there), but at least you stay warm.

doozerie

@chakattack, I think that with merino, as with many things, it probably doesn't work for everyone. However I'm sure that quality also plays a big part. As an example I've used merino base layers from both Patagonia and Planet-X and found they didn't work for me. This wasn't helped by my not caring for the Patagonia one properly, I just chucked it in the washing machine with regular clothes to it was subjected to regular washing powder but more significantly to fabric softeners, and it basically fell apart very quickly. The Planet-X ones I laundered properly (30C machine wash with Woolite, in my case) but the merino was just more coarse, less comfortable, didn't fit as well, and didn't work as well at regulating temperatures, as any of the decent merino stuff I've used since.

I've not used DHB or Endura merino stuff, so I can't comment on it, but in my experience there is a world of difference between good and poor quality merino. And also between good and poor quality manufacturing - for example, one quality merino manufacturer that I've bought from makes the argument that any merino material under 150gsm in weight simply won't last very long as it is too fine to stand up to the rigours of regular washing. Some of my Planet-X merino base layers are 120gsm and it does feel very fragile whereas my good 150gsm stuff feels very robust.

When comparing merino you also have to compare both the fine-ness and the weight of the material. Some of that information is completely lacking in some of the brands of merino product that I've looked at, and I wouldn't buy from those brands since I wouldn't have a clue what I was getting. There is some very useful info on what to look for in merino here

When it is wet though, merino certainly does stay wet. I've not found this to be a problem personally but it wouldn't be ideal in some situations I imagine. For my use of it I've never frozen in wet merino even when I've worn it as my only layer on my commute and I've been regularly stopped at traffic lights on both wet days and dry days. As another example, on a cold group ride a few weeks back 6 of us stopped while someone swapped a punctured tube out. I was wearing a single 150gsm merino base layer and my Assos winter jacket on top. All 5 of the others mentioned that they'd gotten very cold while stopped, whereas I never felt cold at all (despite my base layer being at least partly wet from sweat). Some of that is due to the jacket I expect (and other factors too), but the base layer itself played a huge part in keeping my temperature at a constant comfortable level throughout.

doozerie

@Seweryn, I've not tried the Assos rain gloves, but I've been wondering about them recently so I'm very interested in your experiences with them. Have you worn them with a liner glove underneath? I'm wondering what they'd be like with something like a merino liner. My next attempt at keeping my hands warm will be to get myself a merino liner glove in place of my existing synthetic liners - merino has become a bit of an addiction with me now

I had a pair of budget neoprene gloves many years back, and while they seemed promising in cold weather they didn't work for me at all when a cold day turned wet. On top of that they got smelly very fast (probably not helped by this being back in the days when I just chucked all of my cycling kit in the washing machine with everything else so it wasn't treated well), and the relatively sensitive skin of my hands didn't react well to wet neoprene either. The Assos rain gloves sound like a better bet though so my desperation might lead me to try them.

Idunnowho

Good review. Interestingly I had similar layers on... 2 base layers -> Rapha merino t-shirt (highly recommended on bundle or other discount), Helly Hanson part merino long sleeve base layer (again highly recommended), then Assos Airjack and Rapha Rain jacket. +1 on the Assos jacket, savage piece of kit - mine is 6 or 7 years old, is on its 3rd zip as of last week, but going strong. After 4 hours yesterday my arms were just about wet through but the tshirt was completely dry all over which makes a big difference Hands and feet were cold and wet though... getting that right would make a big difference and would certainly take the first 90 mins of relative comfort to the 3hr mark anyway...
Merino is where its at...

Seweryn

doozerie wrote: »

@Seweryn, I've not tried the Assos rain gloves, but I've been wondering about them recently so I'm very interested in your experiences with them. Have you worn them with a liner glove underneath? I'm wondering what they'd be like with something like a merino liner. My next attempt at keeping my hands warm will be to get myself a merino liner glove in place of my existing synthetic liners - merino has become a bit of an addiction with me now

I had a pair of budget neoprene gloves many years back, and while they seemed promising in cold weather they didn't work for me at all when a cold day turned wet. On top of that they got smelly very fast (probably not helped by this being back in the days when I just chucked all of my cycling kit in the washing machine with everything else so it wasn't treated well), and the relatively sensitive skin of my hands didn't react well to wet neoprene either. The Assos rain gloves sound like a better bet though so my desperation might lead me to try them.

The Assos are the only neoprene gloves I have tried, but I have rather positive feedback about them. They do get smelly though :pac: and on my wet commute days I put them on my desk at work, so others can also enjoy it .

I do not use any liner gloves under the Assos RainGloves and they are comfortable enough for my hands, down to about 3-4 degrees C. In close to freezing temperatures you may need some liner gloves (I will probably get them some day). Mind that some people tend to have colder hands than others, so it is hard to put into perspective (I would rate my hands as average for feeling cold and numb).

All in all I am quite happy with them, but there are cheaper alternative neoprene gloves from other manufacturers also.

ednwireland

underarmour base layer , club windstopper jacket, altura race cape, top end bicyle line tights, bbb coldzone gloves, 4 mm neoprene overshoes , sealskinz socks

only got really cold yesterday stopping for p***tures

tights gloves shoes wet through, arms wet from wicking up the arms body was dry

doozerie

Idunnowho wrote:

Rapha merino t-shirt (highly recommended on bundle or other discount)

I agree, I've been very happy with the Rapha merino base layers that I have too, I use them all the time for commuting either as a single layer or in combination with another merino layer. They don't have a high-necked merino long-sleeved base layer though, which is why I ended up buying an Icebreaker one of that style for under cycling kit. I've only been using the Icebreaker one for a couple of months or so but so far it seems on a par with the Rapha merino stuff in terms of quality and performance, but as Rapha seem to exclude their base layers from their sales these days (at least, I've not seem them really reduced in a while) Icebreaker probably wins out on value when you find them reduced.

crumliniano

Good thread OP. I find wet feet the biggest problem, combined with cold is unpleasant to say the least. The problem I find with feet is that even if your overshoes are pretty waterproof the splashes from the road come up through the sole vents in the shoes and they fill up with water. I have PRO Tarmac H2O overshoes which are pretty waterproof and warm for the elements coming horizontally at them but the splashes coming up from the road get through. I've thought about trying to plug the vents in my shoes but never remember to do it before I get wet. Has anyone found a solution to this? I have Mavic shoes but I keep my old stinky Shimano ones in the shed for really wet days so the Mavic ones don't end up stinky from soaking too.

Lumen

crumliniano wrote: »

I've thought about trying to plug the vents in my shoes but never remember to do it before I get wet. Has anyone found a solution to this?

For small holes (e.g. bolt holes) drip some candle wax in. It's not perfect but it turns a flood into a dribble.

doozerie

I have the PRO Tarmac H20 overshoes too but in cold weather (dry or wet) I don't find them warm enough. I find neoprene overshoes work better for me in the cold - they don't keep the water out for quite as long as the Tarmac's but they tend to stay warmer when wet. I add a layer of toe covers under the overshoes for colder days and this helps keep a bit more of the chill out. I think too that my Tarmac's have becom less water resistant since I've washed them a few times.

Special Red

Balmy enough in Cork, though Strava tells me it was an average of 6.1C.

Peaked cap: Folks need to MTFU
On top: Aldi long sleeve with arm warmers. Rocco DRvCCC jersey with Rocco Windex Gillet.
Legs: Rocco DRvCCC padless leggings with Rocco DRcCCC club bibshorts underneath
Feet: Wool socks, shoes and BBB wet overshoes.
Hands: Santini gloves I bought off Wiggle on offer a few months ago, c.€25.00

Overall: Well as I said, it was relatively balmy compared to the rest of the country so felt safe going out without a rain jacket. Warmed up soon enough and what I was wearing did the job. The weather forecast was giving buckets of rain but the worst had past us by during the night. Defo warm enough for the gear which I'm comfortable wearing and is tried and trusted at this stage.

mossym

doozerie wrote: »

I have the PRO Tarmac H20 overshoes too but in cold weather (dry or wet) I don't find them warm enough..

i have the same overshoes, bought when they were posted as a bargain alert last year. i find that a pair of thick wool socks, my shoes and the overshoes are enough to keep my feet warm, although i don't go out much in heavy rain, just hit the turbo instead

Surveyor11

mossym wrote: »

i have the same overshoes, bought when they were posted as a bargain alert last year. i find that a pair of thick wool socks, my shoes and the overshoes are enough to keep my feet warm, although i don't go out much in heavy rain, just hit the turbo instead

Shoes - sidi Diablo goretex, work well and keep feet relatively dry. Will eventually let water in over the top

Dhb Vaeon tights - kept me snug and dry quickly

Lowe alpine dry flo T-shirt and campagnolo winter jersey, tipped off with bicycle line rain jacket. This combo kept me nice and warm

Head-endura beany. Great piece of kit and keeps the bonce warm

Gloves- trekmates windstopper gloves / a bit clumsy in that they're bulky and not 100% waterproof but keeps the worst off

Was out at 6 degrees in a combination of fairly heavy mist and less heavy fine mist and wasn't too grumpy at the end

triggermortis

I have a thin pair of neoprene overshoes I got from Decathlon that I use with BBB waterproof (really?) shoe covers. I find this combination keeps my feet warm enough even when wet, with Castelli merino wool socks.
My hands are usually the hardest to keep warm and I have just ordered a pair of lobster type gloves from Rose but they haven't arrived yet.
My body is warm enough as I have a variety of base layers from The North Face, Berghaus and FatFace

pprendeville

doozerie wrote: »

Yesterday gave me the opportunity to test some of my cycling kit in the worst combination of Irish weather - cold *and* wet. It was 6.5C when I left home, and 5.1C when I got home. I went down to Hollywood and around the back of the lakes, and it was probably a few degrees colder around there. But that's not particularly cold and I've ridden on colder dry days with the same kit and been fine. But the non-stop rain put a very different complexion on it, as it tends to.

So in case it proves of interest to anyone looking to find cycling kit for those kind of weather conditions, here were my experiences, for a ride of a little over 3.5 hours:

* Feet (Assos WinterPlus (merino) socks, Cannondale neoprene toe covers, Gore Gore-Tex overshoes).
No problems with cold toes, though my feet were soaked before the half-way point of my ride. Gore-Tex overshoes do not keep your feet dry - I never expected them to, as I don't believe any overshoe can really be waterproof, but I was surprised at how much water they let in in a relatively short space of time. Yes the water would have got in through the cleats from puddles on the road, and yes the water would have soaked down through my leggings, but my feet were swimming in so much water that I wonder if it got through the seams of the overshoes too - not that it matters though, I was wearing regular road shoes so the water was always going to get in on such a wet day.
These overshoes are expensive (over UK£60 at their worst) but I bought mine in a sale for about €30 - for that price I'll stick with them in the hope that they'll keep some water out on days which are not as wet, but I certainly wouldn't pay full price for them as all they did yesterday was provide wind protection and you can get that for a lot cheaper from alternative overshoes.

* Legs (Assos WInter LL padded bib tights)
I've had these tights for several years now and they are great. They cover a range of temperatures and although they make no attempt to keep water out, the Airblock material around the knees tends to do a good job of keeping windchill off when they are wet. Yesterday my knees did feel cold at a few points, but that's a rare occurrence with these, and the sensation didn't last long. In the shower at home later my legs were a a mix of colours, the large red patches showing where they'd felt the cold, but I think that would be hard to avoid in yesterday's weather. These tights are expensive but I've been very happy with mine, they fit well (they are a snugger fit than Assos shorts of the same size), they've lasted well, and I'd buy them again if I had to replace them.

* Upper body (Icebreaker 150gsm merino zip-neck long-sleeved base layer, Assos AirJack 851 jacket, Rapha Rain Jacket)
My upper body never felt cold at all. My kit was soaked thourgh when I got home, but I was never conscious of being so wet while on the bike. Good quality merino works well for me as a base layer and I've been happy with the quality of Icebreaker stuff so far. My Assos jacket is brilliant and one of my favourite pieces of cycling kit, it has been going strong for several years now and has well and truly repaid the original purchase cost - not only is it great for regulating temperature, but its 4 rear pockets are incredibly handy when carrying a bunch of stuff on a long winter ride as it means the outer 2 pockets are much easier to access.
This was the first time I've worn the Rapha rain jacket for an entire ride and it worked very well. I was never in danger of over-heating and it appeared to bead water very well. My base layer and Assos jacket were certainly saturated when I got home, so I have to assume that the Rapha layer did let water through (or maybe I was sweating more than I realised), but I was never conscious of that, or uncomfortable. As such it probably functioned mostly as a wind-blocking layer yesterday, but a very good one. The Rapha jacket is expensive, about €240 I think, but I got mine for half that price in one of their sales. For the price I paid I think it's great, but if I were replacing it I'd hesitate to pay full price for it and I'd look at alternatives. Its fit is a strong selling point though so an alternative would have to fit at least as well for me to really consider it.

* Head (Chocolate Fish 190gsm merino beanie)
This beanie is excellent, I wear it every day for my commute despite having several alternatives which I've happily used in the past. It regulates temperature well even once wet, it's comfortable, and it is thin enough to fit easily under a helmet. My head never got cold yesterday despite the beanie being soaked through by the end, and despite my helmet having a lot of ventilation.

* Hands (Assos Winter Glove System - liner, EarlyWinter glove, lobster outer layer)
My hands suffered, my fingers and thumbs were all fairly numb by the time I got home. I've been using these gloves for several years now, so they are not the current/newer version that Assos sell. They work very well in the cold, and are okay in the wet, but really struggle when it's both cold and wet. I still haven't found a good solution for my hands for cold + wet days, these certainly don't provide it.

Obviously these are just my experiences and what works for me in terms of fit/performance/value-for-money/etc might not work for others, and vice versa, but I've found it difficult in the past to find any feedback for cycling kit being used in the kind of conditions we had yesterday so hopefully this info may prove useful to some.

Out of curiosity how much did your cycling gear cost?

feck sake lads

keeping feet dry = full mudguards.:D
as for the rest of the body if its raining hard your going to get wet fact.:eek:

doozerie

@pprendeville, I honestly don't know for sure, I've accrued it over the course of several years and taking advantage of various sales and offers along the way so RRP isn't a good guide to what it cost. I know the cost of the stuff that I've bought most recently but anything more than 3 years or so (which includes all of the Assos stuff) I've forgotten. Here is my best guess:

* Socks, toe covers, Gore overshoes: 65euro
* Assos jacket, tights, gloves: 500euro (rough guess)
* Icebreaker base layer: 50euro
* Rapha rain jacket: 135euro
* Beanie: Free with a top of the same brand that I bought

So in total, somewhere in the region of 750euro for all of the kit that I listed, plus shoes and helmet.

doozerie

feck sake lads wrote: »

keeping feet dry = full mudguards.:D

Yes, generally, but yesterday the volume of water on the roads overcame my usually reliable Crud RoadRacers. Even the more solid/permanent mudguards on my commute bikes tend to struggle a bit with very high volumes of water and yesterday some stretches of road had an inch or more of water across their full width.

Lumen

@doozerie, never add it up. You never know who is watching.

doozerie

Lumen wrote: »

@doozerie, never add it up. You never know who is watching.

My credit card got a sneaky peek and it has thrown itself off my desk into some nook which is totally inaccessible

NamelessPhil

Lumen wrote: »

@doozerie, never add it up. You never know who is watching.

It's fine, I've also been a beneficiary of his bargain hunting skills.

He's never had to resort to leaving new items of kit in the back of the wardrobe with the tags on and producing them months later with an innocent demeanour and an explanation of "Oh, this kit, sure I've had that ages!".

That way leads to marital disharmony.

bcmf

I suffer from cold hands and feet in all but high summer.
I have resigned myself to the fact that I need to concentrate on keeping my hands and feet warm rather then trying to keep them dry.
I bought a set of neoprene fishing gloves off Adverts a few weeks back and they are the best solution I have had so far to the point that I am almost tempted to buy surfing shoes to wear underneath my shoes in really wet weather.
Out yesterday for a few hours and at the end my hands looked like something outta Lord of the rings but crucially they were not frozen and I could get my overshoes etc off.

In relation to Gore stuff -and yes I have a sort of have a vested interest in Gore-
but they dont have waterproof overshoes but are windproof and thermal if they are similar to mine.
Their Windstopper stuff is excellent and really is the difference between staying warm , even when wet, and freezing.
If you happen to buy Gore Tex stuff that is waterproof the key is and this is essential that you wash as per instructions and you tumble dry as tumble dry-ing reactivates the waterproofing

doozerie

NamelessPhil wrote: »

It's fine, I've also been a beneficiary of his bargain hunting skills.

He's never had to resort to leaving new items of kit in the back of the wardrobe with the tags on and producing them months later with an innocent demeanour and an explanation of "Oh, this kit, sure I've had that ages!".

That way leads to marital disharmony.

Ah jaysus, 'tis the wife!

*delete*

*delete*

Why won't the thread delete? Curse you Internet!

doozerie

bcmf wrote: »

In relation to Gore stuff -and yes I have a sort of have a vested interest in Gore-
but they dont have waterproof overshoes but are windproof and thermal if they are similar to mine.
Their Windstopper stuff is excellent and really is the difference between staying warm , even when wet, and freezing.
If you happen to buy Gore Tex stuff that is waterproof the key is and this is essential that you wash as per instructions and you tumble dry as tumble dry-ing reactivates the waterproofing

The overshoes that I have are these ones. They emphasise the Gore-Tex aspect of these, as they provide no warmth as such - I think the Thermo model is the one they sell for warmth.

As regards tumble drying, from what I understand using a cool iron on Gore-Tex (or other waterproof) material has the same effect, although once you start washing clothes with a waterproof coating at all it feels like fighting a losing battle to maintain any level of effectiveness And unfortunately the wash-in GoreTex proofing liquid never restores the material to anything like its original state, I've found. That put me off Gore-Tex for a while, until I realised that alternatives like Triple Point Ceramic and eVent suffer in the same way.

bcmf

Different model to mine alright. Mine have a quilt like lining on the inside.
WRT the tumble drying - I will have to respectully disaggree.
I have 3 waterproof Gore Tex (non cycling) jackets. One must be 5 years old and washed and tumble dried countless times and still is as waterproof as the day I got it.
One I wear while out working in heavy rain and again has been washed and dried numerous times and is probably the best piece of outdoor clothing that I have.
I have worn it while cycling as well and am at the point of 'requesting' a pair of leggings to match.

doozerie

@bcmf, That's interesting. We don't have a tumble dryer and I've always assumed that the iron would do the job adequately, but as my experiences are so different from yours I'm no longer convinced that the way I've been doing it is sufficient. It looks like a tumble dryer should maybe be on a future shopping list - damn!

As a matter of interest, what do you wash your GoreTex jackets with? I've always used NikWax Tech Wash, I've never tried any of the other alternatives.

bcmf

I have also been told that if you dry the Gore stuff on a warm to hot rad it does the job as well but so far tumble drying has been perfect for me.
I use normal washing-machine-stuff-in-a-bottle that Mrs.bcmf tells me to use.

bedirect

I have bbb over shoes, good for a while but the water seems to come in via the cleats. I have Crivit (ALDI) leggins, they are very good & relatively water repellant, much better than my North Wave ones.
I wore an Azzuri jacket, very plastic, not breathable but keeps me dry.
As for gloves, my hands were soaking & cold, I actualy saw Azzuri water proof gloves online, are they any good ? I normally wear a second ordinary pair of wollen gloves underneath