Ireland's scrum problem (all ages)

liam12989

Why oh why has nothing been done ........ The u20 tonight was a joke 6v8 and we lost a pen on our put in

Podge_irl

Scrum last year was excellent. The problem with underage rugby is that its incredibly easy to just get a bad batch of players in one position - especially when injuries hit.

jacothelad

Podge_irl wrote: »

Scrum last year was excellent. The problem with underage rugby is that its incredibly easy to just get a bad batch of players in one position - especially when injuries hit.

..........and our rules governing the scrum at under age rugby mean our guys don't learn to scrummage until it's usually far too late. Given how few credible props we are ever going to produce it is a huge millstone. In France, England and Wales young guys actually get more opportunity to learn how to do it properly and they also get - rightly or wrongly - physical development and diet support way in advance of our lads.

astonaidan

We should do what our scrumhalf suggested for our team the last day, every backline move should start with him having four guys fall on him, real game time conditions

Hagz

liam12989 wrote: »

Why oh why has nothing been done ........ The u20 tonight was a joke 6v8 and we lost a pen on our put in

2011 our scrum was very strong with Martin Moore and James Tracy.
2012 our scrum was even stronger with Merrey and Furlong.

This year our scrum is seriously struggling, but part of that is down to injuries.
Next year our scrum should be back to strength with two highly rated tight-heads.

The other provinces should take a look at what Leinster are doing, because as it stands they're churning out impressive young props.

irishbucsfan

liam12989 wrote: »

Why oh why has nothing been done ........ The u20 tonight was a joke 6v8 and we lost a pen on our put in

I can immediately tell you haven't been following the u20s for long.

Our front rows from the last few years have been excellent.

Last year we were a match for anyone and Furlong destroyed a SXV LH. 2011 saw James Tracy decimate the Saffer loose head at the JWC. Year before that saw O'Connell, Annett and Maguire who were pretty dominant in the 6N (Maguire obviously just because of his size as he's playing Championship rugby now I think, but sti,k strong for the 20s).

This thread seems very unnecessary to me.

opinionatedfan

I'd agree that the last three years the scrum has been strong, but there is no denying that we aren't developing enough top quality tightheads.

Leinster have begun to but the other three provinces seem to be struggling to produce one very good prospect between them.

Jedwardian

Tight heads in particular develop later than other positions. An example could be Adam Jones who was a decidedly average scrummager until he hit his late 20s and is now one of the top players around at his position.

Long term I don't think Ireland are in a bad position at tight head. The fall off from Mike Ross to everyone else is quite large but give it 18 months and Nathan White will be available as a stop gap measure to go along with Declan Fitzpatrick. Michael Bent and Jamie Hagan are often derided, perhaps unfairly, but both are still in their mid 20s and yet to hit their propping peak. Longer term Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look to be better prospects than any tight head were had in the last 15 years.

Give it four years and we'll be in a strong position with regards tight heads. The problem is being addressed but these things take time. As a Leinster fan I'd hate to see it but from an Ireland perspective, it makes sense for a couple of Bent, Hagan, Moore and Furlong to move on in the search for first team rugby. It may speed the process up a bit.

opinionatedfan

John Andress is another option

jacothelad

opinionatedfan wrote: »

John Andress is another option

Andress must have defecated in Deccie's porridge otherwise there is no logical reason why he hasn't even been brought in to the training squad.

irishbucsfan

I don't think Andress gas played much at all this season?

Don't know what he's been up to recently, but last time I checked he was only getting any game time against minnows in the Amlin.

danthefan

jacothelad wrote: »

Andress must have defecated in Deccie's porridge otherwise there is no logical reason why he hasn't even been brought in to the training squad.

I think they said the issue was they couldn't get nearly enough access to him for training and the likes. Andress should have moved back here if he wanted a real chance at the national side.

irishbucsfan

Andress started last weekend for the first time since November.

He's behind Euan Murray though I think. So he's in a tough position.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think Andress gas played much at all this season?

Don't know what he's been up to recently, but last time I checked he was only getting any game time against minnows in the Amlin.

So far this season he has played against the following 19 teams:

1/09/2012 Bath Rugby 80
08/09/2012 Leicester Tigers 62
15/09/2012 Gloucester Rugby 64
22/09/2012 Northampton Saints 40
28/09/2012 London Irish 80
07/10/2012 London Wasps 75
20/10/2012 Femi-CZ VEA Rovigo 40
26/10/2012 Sale Sharks 72
03/11/2012 Exeter Chiefs 72
23/11/2012 Saracens 80
30/11/2012 Harlequins 35
06/12/2012 Perpignan 15
15/12/2012 Perpignan 26
21/12/2012 London Welsh 9
28/12/2012 Sale Sharks 31
04/01/2013 Leicester Tigers 12
12/01/2013 Femi-CZ VEA Rovigo 10
27/01/2013 London Irish 18
02/02/2013 Saracens 63

I don't think you can say he hasn't played much or just against 'minnows'. Not unless you are classing all the A.P sides as minnows. Comparing his opposition to Mike Ross's


Date Opposition
Mins 15/09/2012
Benetton Treviso 64
22/09/2012 Edinburgh Rugby 58
28/09/2012 Connacht Rugby 34
06/10/2012 Munster Rugby
13/10/2012 Exeter Chiefs 80
20/10/2012 Scarlets 80
27/10/2012 Cardiff Blues 55
01/12/2012 Zebre 28
09/12/2012 ASM Clermont Auvergne 80
15/12/2012 ASM Clermont Auvergne 61
29/12/2012 Connacht Rugby 27
04/01/2013 Edinburgh Rugby 63
12/01/2013 Scarlets 71
19/01/2013 Exeter Chiefs 67
Total Played 14
.
I know who has been playing week in and out against the tougher sides as a rule. Treviso, Edinburgh, Zebre, Blues, Connacht and Scarlets and even Munster at times all have powder puff scrums. Ross has played 4 games against decent props all season for Leinster.

opinionatedfan

baffling that with Munster desperate for a TH that Andress is out in the wilderness

its_phil

jacothelad wrote: »

06/12/2012 Perpignan 15
15/12/2012 Perpignan 26
21/12/2012 London Welsh 9
28/12/2012 Sale Sharks 31
04/01/2013 Leicester Tigers 12
12/01/2013 Femi-CZ VEA Rovigo 10
27/01/2013 London Irish 18
02/02/2013 Saracens 63

I don't think you can say he hasn't played much or just against 'minnows'. Not unless you are classing all the A.P sides as minnows. Comparing his opposition to Mike Ross's

.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Andress started last weekend for the first time since November..

Like bucs said he hasn't started since November until recently. You can't compare Ross who is Ireland and Leinsters number one tighthead on gametime with Andress who is Worcesters second choice. Ross is being preserved while Andress, albeit on the little I know about Andress and based on his minutes, just can't break into the starting team.

Maybe if Andress was from NZ and had an Irish passport he might breakthrough?

opinionatedfan

Hagz wrote: »

Next year our scrum should be back to strength with two highly rated tight-heads.

Care to give me names?

Hagz

opinionatedfan wrote: »

Care to give me names?

Both Shane Delahunt and Eoghan McKeever are held in high regard. McKeever has the weight advantage so I'd expect him to get the nod seeing as that counts for a lot at u20 level. Saba Meunargia is solid as well.

CGD

Hagz wrote: »

Both Shane Delahunt and Eoghan McKeever are held in high regard. McKeever has the weight advantage so I'd expect him to get the nod seeing as that counts for a lot at u20 level. Saba Meunargia is solid as well.

Delahunt hasn't overly impressed this year and I can see him falling down the pecking order behind a few others coming thru

Hagz

CGD wrote: »

Delahunt hasn't overly impressed this year and I can see him falling down the pecking order behind a few others coming thru

Doubt it. He was captain for Leinster u19 in the inter pros and started all games ahead of McKeever. Unless he suffers a serious drop in quality I'd imagine he'll be involved in some way.

lurtz

CGD wrote: »

Delahunt hasn't overly impressed this year and I can see him falling down the pecking order behind a few others coming thru

Have you been watching Delahunt? I feel he's been putting in strong performances for the UCD u21s side. Being in the sub academy this year will give him an added advantage over Mckeever,which he doesnt even need in my opinion,front rowers with his balling ability are few and far between

FellasFellas

McKeever wasn't superb for the U19's, he was away for most of the training and came back in decent, but not tip top shape. Wouldn't be surprised to see Dooley really getting a good run of things if he keeps it up. Got another year at 20's and everything, so hope Leinster keep tabs on him and he isn't tempted by Munster if they came calling.

lurtz

Dan O Byrne last year was offered an academy place by munster,so they might look at Dooley because Scott looks like he could do with some serious work

PaulyBolger

you're right. Irelands scrum problem from u13 up is ridiculous. I've been playing since u15 (u19 now) and i still haven't had any training in it, we need to develop props early to get them used to correct scrummaging.

davegrohl48

Do we need two 6'6"/6'7" locks? Possible scrum improvements don't just sit with props. We generally have two jumpers in the backrow.
What about picking at least one mobile but more squat build of player in second row as a general selection tactic.
I think the idea of locks being beanpoles comes from the days when rugby was a game for all shapes and sizes and when generally locks did most of the lineout work. Now you have the involvement of 6/8 in lineouts (7's are usually a bit shorter).
At scrumtime the locks job is to provide shove, having long legs is a mechanical disadvantage especially for the initial moment of "The hit".
Similarly a squat build of player should have more shove after the hit, they can generate huge leg drive.
I know this is a crazy comparison but I'd be very surprised if smaller powerful players like McFadden/Darcy didn't have equal scrummaging power to Donnacha Ryan, maybe greater. They show it in the loose that they have superior leg drive if you look at the yards they gain after being wrapped up by two tacklers.

PaulyBolger

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Do we need two 6'6"/6'7" locks? Possible scrum improvements don't just sit with props. We generally have two jumpers in the backrow.
What about picking at least one mobile but more squat build of player in second row as a general selection tactic.
I think the idea of locks being beanpoles comes from the days when rugby was a game for all shapes and sizes and when generally locks did most of the lineout work. Now you have the involvement of 6/8 in lineouts (7's are usually a bit shorter).
At scrumtime the locks job is to provide shove, having long legs is a mechanical disadvantage especially for the initial moment of "The hit".
Similarly a squat build of player should have more shove after the hit, they can generate huge leg drive.
I know this is a crazy comparison but I'd be very surprised if smaller powerful players like McFadden/Darcy didn't have equal scrummaging power to Donnacha Ryan, maybe greater. They show it in the loose that they have superior leg drive if you look at the yards they gain after being wrapped up by two tacklers.

i think a heavier 8 would help too

[Jackass]

Any merit in trying to bring John Andress back to the island? He's Ulster originally, but seeing as he's been around the AP, I'm sure Munster wouldn't mind taking a look at him, especially if Botha is leaving. (is there any news on that btw?)

Ulster using Afoa could well be interested too, if they wont have the option of renewing his contract.

I don't think Archer or Bent will have any future with Ireland. Never say never, but on current evidence, Archer is struggling to be PRO12 standard and Bent is still unproven at that level imo. I wouldn't hold my breath on Hagan stepping up at this stage either. It really is a sad state of affairs with the 3 jersey in this country.

Same old story with Leinster, loads of hype around young players, but always waiting for them to come through, then when they do, waiting for them to deliver. I hope we unearth at least 1 international class tight head over the coming seasons. Many contenders in the academy.

davegrohl48

PaulyBolger wrote: »

i think a heavier 8 would help too

Heaslip is heavy nowadays, he's about same weight of most 8's in the game. I think it was 2009 I seen him listed as lightest forward of Irish and English pack. But yes a powerful 8 helps.

Question is what kind of scrummaging style do we want anyways? Do we want to go after opposition scrums and force penalties? Do we just want to hold our own and get the ball back to our 8/9 comfortably.
The latter can be achieved with smaller props standing closer. Refs seem to be allowing teams to really close the gap at scrum time. If you've got props under 6 foot they should be able to hold the hit and the job is done. Tom Smith Scottish prop showed this before as a short small prop but he was able to hold much larger props. That style of scrummaging is surely something that can be practiced.
If we want to go after the opposition scrum that gravitates us more towards big props but less mobility. I don't think we'll ever have many of such props.

Teferi

Anyone know if the Route 6'6 idea turned out any gems?

niallerm

Teferi wrote: »

Anyone know if the Route 6'6 idea turned out any gems?

Nope.

Need to target lads when they are 13/14/15..

LeinsterDub

niallerm wrote: »

Nope.

Need to target lads when they are 13/14/15..

Can you really target at that ages? The giant 13 year old who's had the early growth spurt often ends up being of average height

niallerm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can you really target at that ages? The giant 13 year old who's had the early growth spurt often ends up being of average height

most of the people who I know that are in the 6'4 plus range were already pretty tall by the age of 13/14/15.. Think the priority should be finding lads in the early to mid teens who don't come from a rugby background..

the % of the population that is taller than 6'5 is tiny after all.

padser

[Jackass] wrote: »

Same old story with Leinster, loads of hype around young players, but always waiting for them to come through, then when they do, waiting for them to deliver. I hope we unearth at least 1 international class tight head over the coming seasons. Many contenders in the academy.

Can we count McGrath and Moore as "having come through" and Healy as having "Delivered"?

10 months on the propping situation really does look a lot lot better

Tox56

[Jackass] wrote: »

Same old story with Leinster, loads of hype around young players, but always waiting for them to come through, then when they do, waiting for them to deliver. I hope we unearth at least 1 international class tight head over the coming seasons. Many contenders in the academy.

Not enough faith here Jackass. Leinster just won 3 H Cups in 4 years with a large base of local players who delivered on their promise, same with the 6 Lions we had in the summer. Healy/SOB/Heaslip/D'Arcy/Sexton/BOD/Kearney are some examples of young superstars (many of them ripped it up in the Senior Cup, or so I have been told) and they more than met expectations. Yes there were players who didn't come through, but people focus on that rather than the overwhelming successes, of which there have been many

Relevant to this thread I would say Moore and Furlong have a fantastic chance of becoming international standard or higher, in fact I'd be stunned if neither of them did, in my mind it's just a question of whether both of them will, and how far they can go

jacothelad

Tox56 wrote: »

Not enough faith here Jackass. Leinster just won 3 H Cups in 4 years with a large base of local players who delivered on their promise, same with the 6 Lions we had in the summer. Healy/SOB/Heaslip/D'Arcy/Sexton/BOD/Kearney are some examples of young superstars (many of them ripped it up in the Senior Cup, or so I have been told) and they more than met expectations. Yes there were players who didn't come through, but people focus on that rather than the overwhelming successes, of which there have been many

Relevant to this thread I would say Moore and Furlong have a fantastic chance of becoming international standard or higher, in fact I'd be stunned if neither of them did, in my mind it's just a question of whether both of them will, and how far they can go

I hope one of them gets as far as South Belfast....:D