should irish be an optional ?

Ron Burgundy !

am i the only person who thinks that irish should be made optional for the leaving cert ? i believe the option should still be there for people who want to go into jobs like law which require irish but i dont believe it should be an entry requirement into colleges because for those of us who want to do a course which doesn't require irish i think it is unfair to be expected to learn a language which can be difficult to learn and which a lot of us will ditch the moment we are out of secondary school one has to ask themselves if you wanted to get into a course like science for example which doesn't even use irish why do we need a pass grade to get into most colleges in the first place ?

D1stant

Yes.

Ron Burgundy !

its not even just the fact that some of us struggle at irish but consider the amount of money the gouvernment are spending on a teaching irish a launguage which is on the verge of being a dead language

Insect Overlord

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

irish a launguage which is on the verge of being a dead language

No it's not. Do your research.

rubysgirl

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

am i the only person who thinks that irish should be made optional for the leaving cert ?

Five years ago I would have agreed, I hated it with a passion because I was learning random words strung together from a book older than my Granny to throw down in an exam I neither wanted or needed to sit for my future education/career.

Now though, I miss it. I kick myself for not putting more effort in and getting my head around it. I try to speak Irish where/when I can in daily life and intend to go learn the basics and work up from there!

It's the way it's taught that is to blame.

Ron Burgundy !

Insect Overlord wrote: »

No it's not. Do your research.

i know its not in the sense that they still teach it and that we still seem to think it is our national language but honestly on a day to day basis how often do you converse with people in irish that's what i meant

Ron Burgundy !

rubysgirl wrote: »

Five years ago I would have agreed, I hated it with a passion because I was learning random words strung together from a book older than my Granny to throw down in an exam I neither wanted or needed to sit for my future education/career.

Now though, I miss it. I kick myself for not putting more effort in and getting my head around it. I try to speak Irish where/when I can in daily life and intend to go learn the basics and work up from there!

It's the way it's taught that is to blame.

i agree with you in saying that the way it is taught is half the problem and i believe that making it optional could solve that partially at least because not many people will enjoy something they are forced into. my problem with it is that it is a requirement for college and for those of us who find irish difficult it is a hard requirement to meet

An Sionnach Glic

Oh yay, another 'Irish should be optional' thread on boards.ie with all the same hackneyed arguments on both sides rehashed and reheated!

Do you really need to start another?! Search boards.ie on google (insert site:www.boards.ie and then your search words) with the words 'Irish' 'optional' and you'll see what I mean.

There must be some Irish equivalent of Godwin's Law regarding the frequency and predictability of these threads and the inevitability of advocates of Irish being called 'Gaeilgeoir Nazis'. :rolleyes:

An Coilean

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

i know its not in the sense that they still teach it and that we still seem to think it is our national language but honestly on a day to day basis how often do you converse with people in irish that's what i meant

Actually its not in the sense that children are still raised with Irish as their first language.
Can't speak for IO, but its been quite a while since I went a day without using Irish in some way.

An Coilean

An Sionnach Glic wrote: »

Oh yay, another 'Irish should be optional' thread on boards.ie with all the same hackneyed arguments on both sides rehashed and reheated!

Do you really need to start another?! Search boards.ie on google (insert site:www.boards.ie and then your search words) with the words 'Irish' 'optional' and you'll see what I mean.

There must be some Irish equivalent of Godwin's Law regarding the frequency and predictability of these threads and the inevitability of advocates of Irish being called 'Gaeilgeoir Nazis'. :rolleyes:

Ya, maybe we can speed this thread up a bit.

-Choice
-Constitution
-Dead/dying language
-Herritage
-Useless/Irrevelant
-National Language
-English Speaking Nation
-BILINGUAL Nation!!!!!!!
-Fascists
-West Brits.


That should cover the first hundred pages or so.

Insect Overlord

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

i know its not in the sense that they still teach it and that we still seem to think it is our national language but honestly on a day to day basis how often do you converse with people in irish that's what i meant

Same as An Coilean, I use the language every day.

(I do have this forum and Teach na nGealt to help though, I suppose.)

johnolocher

I use it a few times a week, once in a night class I'm attending and other times just watching a few program's on TG4 but that's the extent of it really. I'd love more opportunity to practice what I have but in my everyday life that isn't there and that's that I don't worry about it too much.

Being optional in school doesn't effect me but it strikes me as counter productive that its required for some colleges and is compulsory in school, to what end? It seems to me it creates a large percentage of students who are either passive towards the language at best and hate it at worst. It doesn't serve me practically or culturally at all that a load of kids learn the cúpla focal but then never use it, I don't think it serves them, nor anyone else either.

Moonbeam

Do you think english and math should be optional too?

uch

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

its not even just the fact that some of us struggle at irish but consider the amount of money the gouvernment are spending on a teaching irish a launguage which is on the verge of being a dead language

Well they're wasting their money spending it on English by the look of it

Ron Burgundy !

Moonbeam wrote: »

Do you think english and math should be optional too?

no because we use maths and english in our day to day life but they should make it a more practical subject by applying it to everyday situations and they should split english into english litrature and a second subject which focuses more on comprehension

murphyaii

i don't see the relevance of irish unless it is in one of 3 categories

a) live in the west of ireland
b) apply for a job in rte or the government
c) apply for a job as a irish teacher

bring on the flaming

p.s. i hated irish in school and i have never had any need to use it since

i would prefer to learn spanish or french as they are used in different countries unlike ireland where irish is only used:) and not abroad

Ron Burgundy !

uch wrote: »

Well they're wasting their money spending it on English by the look of it

i apologise for my misspellings but i was writing that in a hurry and i didn't check over my post for words which i would've usually spelt right

Insect Overlord

murphyaii wrote: »

p.s. i hated irish in school and i have never had any need to use it since

There's a surprise. It's always the people who hated Irish in school who say that it should be optional for everybody...

Ron Burgundy !

Insect Overlord wrote: »

There's a surprise. It's always the people who hated Irish in school who say that it should be optional for everybody...

the surprise is that the people who like irish force it on us who don't leaving us without a say in the matter

ps. something i forgot to mention is that i find it unfair that the standard for the irish exam is based on the gaeltacht areas results giving them an unfair advantage over the rest of ireland.

Insect Overlord

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

ps. something i forgot to mention is that i find it unfair that the standard for the irish exam is based on the gaeltacht areas results giving them an unfair advantage over the rest of ireland.

By that logic, you should also find it unfair that French, German, Spanish, English, ect, exams are also based on a standard of fluency. It's a ridiculous argument.

Ron Burgundy !

Insect Overlord wrote: »

By that logic, you should also find it unfair that French, German, Spanish, English, ect, exams are also based on a standard of fluency. It's a ridiculous argument.

not really as is there any french specific areas in ireland which would be given a much greater and detailed education then the rest of the country? (not including private schools) what i'm saying is its wrong for the people who set the exam to presume the rest of ireland is as fluent as those who live in the gaeltacht areas who are given a a greater education in the subject

Fromthetrees

Too much class time is given over to Irish and religion. I can see how maybe these two subjects would be seen as essential to keeping Irish culture alive but the bottom line is they are largely a waste of time nowadays.

It should be compulsory up to junior cert but not after. The whole approach to how it's thought should be changed with far more emphasis put on speaking it.

I went to a primary school with a strong Irish ethos, I went on to learn virtually nothing in the 6 years of secondary school but still got a good mark in the leaving cert. I realised it was largely a complete waste of time. I can still rattle off verbs, tenses and all that but it has so little practical usefulness to me now.

Science and technology is the future for our children. I think the time spent teaching Irish and religion is off the ****ing wall insane.

Insect Overlord

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

not really as is there any french specific areas in ireland which would be given a much greater and detailed education then the rest of the country? (not including private schools) what i'm saying is its wrong for the people who set the exam to presume the rest of ireland is as fluent as those who live in the gaeltacht areas who are given a a greater education in the subject

The curriculum is the same for everyone, regardless of what region the student lives in.
Basic fluency is the standard to be achieved. You might as well say it's unfair that people who had better teachers in Primary School have an unfair advantage. Your point is still inaccurate.

An gal gréine

Does the "usefulness" of a certain de Caravaggio painting just hanging on a wall in Merrion Square, Dublin have to be explained as well?

Ron Burgundy !

Insect Overlord wrote: »

The curriculum is the same for everyone, regardless of what region the student lives in.
Basic fluency is the standard to be achieved. You might as well say it's unfair that people who had better teachers in Primary School have an unfair advantage. Your point is still inaccurate.

what i'm saying is we are not expected to be as fluent in french as french people are so we set a standard we consider to be reasonably fluent and set the exams around that standard whereas with irish we expected to be as fluent as areas where irish is spoken as fluently as possible.

Insect Overlord

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

what i'm saying is we are not expected to be as fluent in french as french people are so we set a standard we consider to be reasonably fluent and set the exams around that standard whereas with irish we expected to be as fluent as areas where irish is spoken as fluently as possible.

Okay. Can you not see how that would be reasonable in a country where Gaeilge is one of the two national languages? Where it's taught from Junior Infants to 6th Class (8 years) and all through Secondary School (at least 5 years)?

Ron Burgundy !

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Okay. Can you not see how that would be reasonable in a country where Gaeilge is one of the two national languages? Where it's taught from Junior Infants to 6th Class (8 years) and all through Secondary School (at least 5 years)?

yet most people in this country don't speak it on a day to day basis and those who do are generally from gaeltacht areas i'm not saying we should condemn irish but we should stop forcing it on everyone as if the language is to flourish we must allow for those who don't like irish to leave it and for those who do to study it as making people learn irish who are never going to use it isn't going to make a differance i understand its a matter of our culture but surely we could teach the culture part in history or a new subject called irish culture which would focus on not only irish but our music and our art.

deirdremf

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

what i'm saying is its wrong for the people who set the exam to presume the rest of ireland is as fluent as those who live in the gaeltacht areas who are given a a greater education in the subject

Not so. The level is extremely low.
Actually, the people who set the exam seem to assume that there are no native speakers in Ireland, that everyone is a learner. It is most frustrating for those who ARE native speakers to be treated like morons.

deirdremf

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

yet most people in this country don't speak it on a day to day basis and those who do are generally from gaeltacht areas i'm not saying we should condemn irish but we should stop forcing it on everyone as if the language is to flourish we must allow for those who don't like irish to leave it and for those who do to study it as making people learn irish who are never going to use it isn't going to make a differance i understand its a matter of our culture but surely we could teach the culture part in history or a new subject called irish culture which would focus on not only irish but our music and our art.

It seems that you could do with some remedial teaching in English, so maybe they should make a special case of you and give you an exemption from all other subjects.
Come back when you have learnt to write English, it'll be easier to discuss matters that way.

By the way, has it escaped your attention that Art and Music are already subjects at second level?

Ron Burgundy !

deirdremf wrote: »

Not so. The level is extremely low.
Actually, the people who set the exam seem to assume that there are no native speakers in Ireland, that everyone is a learner. It is most frustrating for those who ARE native speakers to be treated like morons.

i doubt that native speakers would complian about easy points in their leaving cert.

Ron Burgundy !

deirdremf wrote: »

It seems that you could do with some remedial teaching in English, so maybe they should make a special case of you and give you an exemption from all other subjects.
Come back when you have learnt to write English, it'll be easier to discuss matters that way.

By the way, has it escaped your attention that Art and Music are already subjects at second level?

i don't apreciate the manner you spoke to me in, and by the way i'm a higher level english student. and my point about art and music is along with irish they could teach about IRISH art and IRISH music specifically not just how to paint etc.

An Coilean

Insect Overlord wrote: »

The curriculum is the same for everyone, regardless of what region the student lives in.
Basic fluency is the standard to be achieved. You might as well say it's unfair that people who had better teachers in Primary School have an unfair advantage. Your point is still inaccurate.

Actually he does make a good point, even if its not the one he intended.
The current system whereby Gaeltacht students and students educated through Irish in Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaisteanna are expected to learn the same material as students with little or no ability to understand Irish is an abdication by the state of its responcibility to foster the literacy of these students. If that kind of subject matter was presented to fluent English speaking children in English class there would be uproar.

Paz-CCFC

murphyaii wrote: »

i would prefer to learn spanish or french as they are used in different countries unlike ireland where irish is only used:) and not abroad

I can never understand this argument. If you want to, then why don't you? I think the more languages someone has, the better. In fact, people who learn Irish (or any other language(s)) from birth/a very young age are more able to pick up a subsequent language/languages later on in life. For practicality reasons, since there are so many Gaelscoileanna, it's probably easier to learn Irish as a second language than any other (discounting English for non-native speakers) - so, becoming fluent in Irish at a young age puts you on a better platform for learning Spanish or French.

It's the same kind of argument when people say that French/German/Spanish speaking schools would be better than Gaelscoileanna. If these would apparently be so popular in Ireland, then why aren't there any? Nothing in Irish law prevents their establishment. ANYONE can setup a school which is taught primarily through these tongues, provided they meet a certain minimum standard as laid down by law. And the State will do NOTHING to stop you. In fact, they'll actually help you along the way with grants and funding.

Ron Burgundy !

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

I can never understand this argument. If you want to, then why don't you? I think the more languages someone has, the better. In fact, people who learn Irish (or any other language(s)) from birth/a very young age are more able to pick up a subsequent language/languages later on in life. For practicality reasons, since there are so many Gaelscoileanna, it's probably easier to learn Irish as a second language than any other (discounting English for non-native speakers) - so, becoming fluent in Irish at a young age puts you on a better platform for learning Spanish or French.

It's the same kind of argument when people say that French/German/Spanish speaking schools would be better than Gaelscoileanna. If these would apparently be so popular in Ireland, then why aren't there any? Nothing in Irish law prevents their establishment. ANYONE can setup a school which is taught primarily through these tongues, provided they meet a certain minimum standard as laid down by law. And the State will do NOTHING to stop you. In fact, they'll actually help you along the way with grants and funding.

what people are saying is they would rather be learning another language at a younger age during the time they would be learning irish otherwise

Paz-CCFC

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

what people are saying is they would rather be learning another language at a younger age during the time they would be learning irish otherwise

Why not Irish and another language? Or a fourth language on top of that? Learning new things won't push the old stuff out, and a young child will pick it up very easily compared to an adult (who will still learn it if they put their mind to it).

rox5

I think the problem is that it needs more of an update. I learned French in school (not very good though ha) and even though some of the books were every old looking and off putting, it didnt matter because it was a new culture to learn. Not only the language but it's landmarks, a tiny bit of it's history, it's cuisine, etc. It wasn't just the language alone.

But with Irish, not only did some of the books look like they were made in the 1940's, they just gave us the language and that's it. They very bland and boring.

I think the government must assume that because we are Irish, we should know more about our culture and and land but for me personally I actually don't. I only knew the basic legends and one or two songs and that's about it.

I am not sure if it would work or not, but I just think if they thought more Irish traditional songs and thought us about our culture in Irish class, it might motivate people to learn it, because it took a lot of searching aorund on the internet to see that we have SUCH a rich culture of songs, story-telling, history and legends that unless you go out of your way to learn it yourself, it just goes to waste.

Example: Google "Grace O'Malley."
She was nicknamed the "Pirate Queen" and was one of the best clan leaders and warriors this country has ever seen and has an unbelievable story to her life.
She was never thought to us in History or Irish class in primary or secondary school, I only happened to have come across her story by chance on the internet. If I didn't I would have never known that this brillaint woman existed.
I mean for God's sake the Americans and Canadians know more about her than we do I'd say! They even have a bar named after her in Toronto!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8z48fxGJSE