Client wont pay, advice required

tomas1122

Would appreciate if someone could suggest what to do in this situation.

I walked in to the restaurant and offered my service, general manager said that they are interested, agreed on price and I performed my service.

Then he recommended me to other restaurants. I did service there too.

At one place I did job twice.

All invoices were signed by the managers.

Once I asked for the payment they said that head office manages all pay outs for services performed and I just have to mail invoice.

After I send invoice, got a call from head office that they wont pay for service, because service was ordered not through head office but by managers direct who are not authorized to order anything.

Once I asked managers why they ordered this service if they are not authorised they said that there is nothing they can do.

Any advice how to get my money? are situations like that common?

smash

Small claims court. You have a signed invoice right?

tomas1122

yes I do, thank you for your help

donalh087

Broadly - what amount of money are we looking at?

tomas1122

Around 1000 EUR, thanks

Gloomtastic!

Company is talking nonsense. Manager ordered it so the company must pay. Same would apply even if it was the kitchen porter who ordered it. This is definitely the case in the UK so would assume it's the same here.

robinph

They received services which were ordered by one of their employees, they have to pay.

Now if they want to then take action internally against their manager for having ordered stuff without appropriate authorisation then they can, but that is nothing to do with you.

RATM

Previous posters are correct here- it doesn't matter who ordered it- someone representing the company ordered it and that is all that matters.

However small claims court do not listen to debt collection cases involving a business to business dispute. Which is a pity as they would be ideal in this scenario as it is not a collosal sum you are asking for.

Your options are to
1) Scratch it off as a bad debt and forget about it
2) Keep ringing and ringing head office, show up there if necessary. Hassle their finance director into paying up
3) Do a deal with a solicitor for a flat rate debt collection job. All it will probably take to get them to pay up is one solicitors letter. Explain to him that you don't want costs to go over X amount and see if he will do you a deal (plenty of solicitors are desperate for any kind of work at the moment)
4) Sell the debt to a debt collection agency, taking a substantial hit in the pockets but still getting some money

Of all the above options the one most likely to work is a solicitors letter- no company director would be stupid enough to get themselves listed in Stubbs Gazette for the sake of €1000 so my guess is that once the letter lands on their desk their next action will be to get the cheque book out.

I know how you feel OP, I've had to chase several debts in the range of €2k-€4k over the last 18 months. I'd prefer not to have to take people to court but if they won't communicate with me then what option do I have. None of the cases I've taken have ever gotten to court- it has been my experience that a lot of company owners think they can play you. When they see you are serious then they'll pay up. Of course you'll never get business from them again but in my case I wouldn't want it and also I have over 40,000 potential customers, not just one or two.

Gloomtastic!

Sorry OP, are all these restaurants part of the same chain and head office is refusing to pay for any of your services? Or is it just one restaurant that is giving you problems?

Whatever route you go down to get your money back, make sure you follow through on any action you threaten. Failure to do this means head office won't take anything you threaten seriously and further delay payment.

It sounds like they have serious cashflow problems and are trying to dodge payment. They need to made aware, in writing, that they have no grounds to withhold payment.

Is their head office near you? Personally I'd visit them at their offices and not leave until I got my money. I know a lot of people don't like this method but it doesn't cost you anything, it's quick and it's bloody effective!

tomas1122

Thanks for great advice. I am self employed. Can I still take them to small claims court? 4 restaurants from one chain cause me problems

sandin

Stand outside the restaurant every weekend evening with a flyer stating that they won't pay you - make sure everythign written is 100% correct and true.
Tell them you will return every friday / saturday evening until its paid.


- Worked very well for me once when I had an issue with Leinster Timber (now gone bust, hence i can say their name). I sent a copy of the flyer to them, stated I was commencing to distribute them at 10am saturday at the entrance road to their premises (public land). Their solicitor sent a reply, I simply sent back a single sentence "The truth is the ultimate defense in any form of litgation" and was told an hour later the money was waiting for me.

Yawns

sandin wrote: »

sit in the restaurant with a sign saying you are awaiting payment of a bill.

tell them you will return every friday / saturday evening until its paid.

They'll ask you to leave and if you refuse, they can call guards. Sitting outside however would be a different story.

sandin

Yawns wrote: »

They'll ask you to leave and if you refuse, they can call guards. Sitting outside however would be a different story.

already changed the tack.

btw - guards won't get involved in a civil manner. They will only remove you if you are a threat to public safety.

Yawns

sandin wrote: »

Guards won't get involved in a civil manner. They will only remove you if you are a threat to public safety.

Glad you think so. Have had a few people removed from premises of a place I worked in by the guards. They certainly weren't a threat to the public, just refused to leave when asked politely. Guards called, they came over and within a few minutes, they'd be escorting the person down the street away from the place. Generally when the guard arrived, the person would calm down and nothing more would come of it.

Noel Kinsella

Small claims dont work business to business as far as I know. Why dont you contact VIPER debt collections services just google them I heard they are good.

Peterdalkey

Do not be afraid to threaten to seek to have them liquidated, this requires a 21 day notice to be issued under section 213 of the Companies Act... very intimidating.
All you have to do is write to them by registered post and give them 21days under the above section 213 of the Companies Act to pay the debt. Advise them that you will then be placing a newspaper advertisement announcing that you intend to seek to have them wound up in default.

Believe me this works!! Kings Law stationers used to sell preprinted notices for that very purpose.
Dunnes stores buckled under such a threat recently and paid up, also some years ago a small dublin employment agency brought about the collapse of a very large company... they would be insane to ignore such a threat and you rarely hear about such cases, the debtor invariably pays... I know as I have used this tactic for nearly 30 years!! BUT, I am always prepared to follow through!


cheers
Peter

Gloomtastic!

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Do not be afraid to threaten to seek to have them liquidated, this requires a 21 day notice to be issued under section 213 of the Companies Act... very intimidating.
All you have to do is write to them by registered post and give them 21days under the above section 213 of the Companies Act to pay the debt. Advise them that you will then be placing a newspaper advertisement announcing that you intend to seek to have them wound up in default.

Believe me this works!! Kings Law stationers used to sell preprinted notices for that very purpose.
Dunnes stores buckled under such a threat recently and paid up, also some years ago a small dublin employment agency brought about the collapse of a very large company... they would be insane to ignore such a threat and you rarely hear about such cases, the debtor invariably pays... I know as I have used this tactic for nearly 30 years!! BUT, I am always prepared to follow through!


cheers
Peter

Isn't there a amount below which you cannot go down this route? Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be doing it over trivial amounts.

Peterdalkey

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Isn't there a amount below which you cannot go down this route? Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be doing it over trivial amounts.

A company can be insolvent by as little as 1 cent!! It is very unlike you Gloomster to be slow on the uptake!! Who really wants to put it to the test for relatively small money. I call it Poker Debt Collection.. see me if you can afford to lose, they fold as there is no possible win for them. Don't knock it until you have tried it and it failed.

Old dog and hard road and all that stuff

Peter

MidlandsM

Peterdalkey wrote: »

A company can be insolvent by as little as 1 cent!! It is very unlike you Gloomster to be slow on the uptake!! Who really wants to put it to the test for relatively small money. I call it Poker Debt Collection.. see me if you can afford to lose, they fold as there is no possible win for them. Don't knock it until you have tried it and it failed.

Old dog and hard road and all that stuff

Peter

how much would Op need to spend in legal costs to take a case to get them wound up?

NoQuarter

Guys, PeterDalkey may have used this procedure before but he is giving you appaling legal advice here.

First of all, if the Courts thought that you were using this procedure as a debt collection procedure, not only would you lose the petition, but you would likely get the other sides costs awarded against you. And be warned, if the other side take legal advice, their lawyers will spot what you are trying to do so you had better be willing to follow all the way through with it.

Also, despite what PeterDalkey says, you cannot be liquidated for as little as 1 cent. A company will only be deemed to be insovent if it owes a creditor in excess of €1,269.74. So if you are not owed that, you cant do it anyway.

This is a classic example of a little information being a lot dangerous.


The best thing to do is either;
a. Stand outside the restaurant in peaceful protest telling everyone the complete, true story or go the legal route:

b. Take a claim in the district court. You could figure out how to do it yourself if you really wanted. Check courts.ie

Here is the form you need to write the summons yourself:http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/53bd32841fc5bbf280256d2b0045bb5d/9ded67e17381e1f580257638004f6e0e?OpenDocument

Go into the Four Courts and get it stamped for €22 then go upstairs into the District Court office and issue it. They will explain the procedure to you there. You will get your court date and thats that. It probably wont even get that far, they will probably pay when they get the summons.

Gloomtastic!

I haven't sued anyone for money for over 13 years but I used to be taking debtors to court all the time and No Quarter has confirmed everything I remembered about Winding Up Orders. I was a Director of a company that was insolvent for six of it's first seven years. In all that time we were never able to issue a Winding Up Order or had one issued against us.

Peterdalkey

I am not giving any legal advice here, I am simply sharing a debt collection tactic that works. It is a game of Russian Roulette if you like, but the costs are next to zero. Like using the heavy gang to collect, fear is the most powerful motivator.
If someone is not paying you, you can be sure that there are plenty more looking for payment too... the debtor will not want the attention of their other creditors to be similarly aroused. If they do not have the money to pay everybody, they pay those who they fear most.

There are very real risks with making a public protest as suggested above. Even I would not risk such a foolhardy adventure.

Peter

repsol

OP I suggest you book a big group of mates in for a slap up meal.Order everything on the menu washed down with ****loads of beer,wine etc and when the bill comes ,tell them to deduct it from the amount you are owed.They are not going to pay so you may as well get some form of retribution.

NoQuarter

Advising someone to invoke the mechanism under s213 of the Companies Act to wind up a company is legal advice, whether you are qualified to give it or not, thats what it is. If I advised someone to take 20 tablets of some drug to cure an infection I am giving medical advice.

What are the risks with a public protest? I am genuinely curious as I cant think of any bad ones.

For what its worth, I would go the District Court route.

toxicjeni

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Do not be afraid to threaten to seek to have them liquidated, this requires a 21 day notice to be issued under section 213 of the Companies Act... very intimidating.
All you have to do is write to them by registered post and give them 21days under the above section 213 of the Companies Act to pay the debt. Advise them that you will then be placing a newspaper advertisement announcing that you intend to seek to have them wound up in default.

Believe me this works!! Kings Law stationers used to sell preprinted notices for that very purpose.
Dunnes stores buckled under such a threat recently and paid up, also some years ago a small dublin employment agency brought about the collapse of a very large company... they would be insane to ignore such a threat and you rarely hear about such cases, the debtor invariably pays... I know as I have used this tactic for nearly 30 years!! BUT, I am always prepared to follow through!


cheers
Peter

Ok... Firstly it's a S214 letter. Secondly Dunnes was on the hook for MILLIONS not €1,000. Thirdly the minimum amount is €1,270 Fourthy it can't be used unless you genuinely believe the Company is trading insolvently. It is not to be used solely to collect a debt. And finally why would anyone suggest a method to collect a debt of €1k that costs between €12k (straightforward small Company) to €xxxk (complicated and challenged case) - well they need to think a bit more in the real world.

The best bet is to go for a consult with a solicitor (first one is normally free) have a chat. Ask them to collect debt on a no foal no fee basis. If they genuinely believe it collectible they'll go for it cos if you don't get paid, they won't.

Failing that - name and Shame on their social media like Facebook.

Peterdalkey

NoQuarter wrote: »

Advising someone to invoke the mechanism under s213 of the Companies Act to wind up a company is legal advice, whether you are qualified to give it or not, thats what it is. If I advised someone to take 20 tablets of some drug to cure an infection I am giving medical advice.

What are the risks with a public protest? I am genuinely curious as I cant think of any bad ones.

For what its worth, I would go the District Court route.

You really should read what I actually wrote, not what you seem to think I wrote ... start by sending a 21 day notice under section 213 of the companies Act... at this stage all you have done is send a notice.

As for your curiosity, take it to a lawyer, I don't do legal advice.

ResearchWill

Write to the company and each manager, say its like this one of ye owe me the money, if I sue I will sue both the company and the manager. Then issue proceedings through a solicitor or yourself and then get judgement.

Don't do the following, get friend or family to make booking in place, arrive with enough people to eat and drink a grand, when bill comes say "I did not make the booking, its the other person who must pay."

ResearchWill

Peterdalkey wrote: »

You really should read what I actually wrote, not what you seem to think I wrote ... start by sending a 21 day notice under section 213 of the companies Act... at this stage all you have done is send a notice.

As for your curiosity, take it to a lawyer, I don't do legal advice.

Courts in this jurisdiction, really take a very dim view of even threatening such action over smal debts.

Also its very bad business to issue a threat you have no intention of following up, every letter you send you must be happy to go all the way, otherwise don't bother.

Pabmac

repsol wrote: »

OP I suggest you book a big group of mates in for a slap up meal.Order everything on the menu washed down with ****loads of beer,wine etc and when the bill comes ,tell them to deduct it from the amount you are owed.They are not going to pay so you may as well get some form of retribution.

TBH this is something students on a summer / casual job might do, not somebody genuinely trying to build up a business.
Bad press is a two way street.
Far better to be known as a business who does a good job but will resort to the law if not paid on time than be seen as petty and unprofessional.

NoQuarter

Peterdalkey wrote: »

You really should read what I actually wrote, not what you seem to think I wrote ... start by sending a 21 day notice under section 213 of the companies Act... at this stage all you have done is send a notice.

As for your curiosity, take it to a lawyer, I don't do legal advice.

I specifically went back and read your post before I replied to it. You told them exactly what to do to start the process, which is what I advised against. You said you were always prepared to follow through, if they followed through with it, as I stated earlier, they could find themselves in trouble. Even sending the warning letter is an abuse of process. There are numerous cases on it.

I'm not asking for legal advice and I dont understand how it could be. I'm asking you what you think the pitfalls of staging a protest are. No need for a lawyer for that once OP tells the full truth.

RATM

sandin wrote: »

Stand outside the restaurant every weekend evening with a flyer stating that they won't pay you - make sure everythign written is 100% correct and true.
Tell them you will return every friday / saturday evening until its paid.


- Worked very well for me once when I had an issue with Leinster Timber (now gone bust, hence i can say their name). I sent a copy of the flyer to them, stated I was commencing to distribute them at 10am saturday at the entrance road to their premises (public land). Their solicitor sent a reply, I simply sent back a single sentence "The truth is the ultimate defense in any form of litgation" and was told an hour later the money was waiting for me.

This tactic worked for a mate of mine with a shoe shop on Henry Street- he wore the shoes for two days and ended up with huge blisters, Brought them back and was refused a refund and was told that he should have spotted their fauilt in the shop when he tried them on.

He duly returned with flyers explaining the situation (in a truthful manner, without any libel) and started to hand them outside their front door. Manager came out and he told him he would be there for the weekend until he got his refund. It was a clever tactic as shoe sales people are on commission so no customers=no commission. The manager refunded him in under 5 minutes, job done. It takes balls but sometimes you are in the right so much that it takes extreme measures to prove it. Fair play to him I said.

NoQuarter wrote: »

Guys, PeterDalkey may have used this procedure before but he is giving you appaling legal advice here.

First of all, if the Courts thought that you were using this procedure as a debt collection procedure, not only would you lose the petition, but you would likely get the other sides costs awarded against you. And be warned, if the other side take legal advice, their lawyers will spot what you are trying to do so you had better be willing to follow all the way through with it.

Also, despite what PeterDalkey says, you cannot be liquidated for as little as 1 cent. A company will only be deemed to be insovent if it owes a creditor in excess of €1,269.74. So if you are not owed that, you cant do it anyway.

This is a classic example of a little information being a lot dangerous.


The best thing to do is either;
a. Stand outside the restaurant in peaceful protest telling everyone the complete, true story or go the legal route:

b. Take a claim in the district court. You could figure out how to do it yourself if you really wanted. Check courts.ie

Here is the form you need to write the summons yourself:http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/53bd32841fc5bbf280256d2b0045bb5d/9ded67e17381e1f580257638004f6e0e?OpenDocument

Go into the Four Courts and get it stamped for €22 then go upstairs into the District Court office and issue it. They will explain the procedure to you there. You will get your court date and thats that. It probably wont even get that far, they will probably pay when they get the summons.

I cannot agree with this post more. Although a 21 day letter is a frightening document it is NOT to be used for debt collection- a judge who suspects this is going to take a very dim view of anyone who used insolvency legislation to get their debts paid. I say this having once sent someone a 21 day letter as a first option- the guy wasn't stupid and he or his solicitor didn't even reply to me because they knew well that if I followed through on it then I would end up losing the case and having to pay their costs.

That is why I didn't give the 21 day letter to the OP in my post above where I outlined his options. Primarily because if you use this tactic you cannot follow through on it. What you are hoping is that the debtor and/or his solicitor does not know that a 21 day letter is not to be used for debt collection. Any solicitor worth their salt will know that. And any person in business who has racked up debts will most likely know it too so to my mind I think it is a waste of time.

As NoQuarter has said it is not a difficult procedure to go down to the District Court, fill out a form and get it stamped. €22 is actually a total bargain for the letter that is then issued to the debtor - it is actually quite a frightening letter and it basically says X person MUST appear on X date in X court- it has all the official District Court logos etc and is very official. If the debtor does not show up to court then presumably they'll be held in contempt of court and a bench warrant issued for their arrest- like I said €22 is a bargain for this service. I know if I received one of the letters I've sent to my debtors I'd be ****ting myself because there is something very final about it- either the debtor sorts out the dispute asap or they run the risk of a District Court judge throwing the book at them for wasting his time.

In the OP's case they have proof the work was done as the managers have signed the invoices. The only defence that the debtor has here (IMO) is to claim that the work was not done correctly. OP needs to shore up that side of the argument because it s quite a common claim in these cases. The fact that one restaurant referred him to the next and so on would indicate he did a good job but if this does go to court you have to be able to get that across to the judge.

OP I hope you get what is owed to you as I feel for you- it was a real eye opener to me when I started my business 2 years ago all starry eyed and full of optimism. 9 months later I was suing people who were delighted with my work but were still refusing to pay. Maybe they thought they were bigger than me or could bully me, whatever it was the whole episode put me under a lot of stress and I came within 3 weeks of going out of business due to a lack of cashflow and mounting bills- both my office landlord and my apartment landlord were on the verge of evicting me and the whole thing nearly had me moving back in with my mother at the age of 33 ( a frightening prospect, the embarrassment ! )

And all this was not because of something I did wrong but because they would not pay up- completely unfair. I had my days outside court but would much prefer it never got that far. I got sweet revenge on one of them recently- his business folded and he liquated it owing other small businesses over €30k- one business alone was owed €16k and they then folded as a result of his actions- something that very nearly happened me too. Since then he has gone looking for a regular job- when he got one it was me who rang up his boss to let him know the type of character he had employed. His boss was more than keen to hear about this as the industy is IT Security and honesty is paramount. As a result he no longer works there, the lad thought he was smart in fcuking me around for 8 months, now the boot is on the other foot and I can go even longer than that. Dublin is a small town and every time he finds himself a new job I'll be there to ring up his new boss and explain to him the level of dishonesty this character can get up to- not just on me, on a whole load of others too.

So OP provided you don't need this restaurant chain as a customer into the future then I reckon the best option to secure all of the money is the District Court. It has worked out very well for me on numerous occasions. Like I said I didn't want to have to do it but the net result of all the cases I had to take is that now in my industry I have a reputation as someone who does a excellent job at a fair price but if you don't pay me I'll sue you. That's actually not a bad reputation to have in this town and I'm glad I have it because it makes company owners think twice about dealing with me if they don't intend to pay. In other words my reputation now filters out the messers who don't intend to pay- happy days for me because life is way to short to be dealing with time wasters and dishonesty.

Gloomtastic!

^ Can't believe your mate returned shoes after two days because they gave him blisters. New shoes always give blisters!

Turned into an interesting little thread. Owing and been owed money is one of the more unpleasant sides of business. As I mentioned earlier, the last company I was involved in survived being insolvent for six years because we were masters at getting the money in and very good at dodging payment til the very last minute. Little story.....

The litigation lawyers we used throughout, I had an excellent working relationship with and in seven years we never lost a case. One day I got a call from one of their partners. They'd finally realised that over all the years working together, we'd never paid one of their invoices!

Company is still going - very successful by all accounts, so if you are in a similar position remember one of the golden rules of business - Do it to them, before they do it to you!

Peterdalkey

Gloomtastic’s story demonstrates exactly why debt collection is so difficult in Ireland, especially for SMEs. It takes many many months to get anywhere near a court and the debtors know that. It is definitely a case of justice delayed is justice denied. Delinquent debtors use the system to delay and obfuscate, creditors must be innovative and persistent to find a way of making them pay up. Both ISME and the SFA have long campaigned for a fast access debtors court system for SMEs, as obtains already in the UK.

There are a huge variety of tactics that can be employed and we have had many of them listed in this thread already.
There is no one-size-fits-all solution, the objective is to get the money paid as quickly as possible at the minimum cost/effort to you. What is quite clear from all published data, is that the longer a debt is outstanding the less likely it is to ever be recovered. It is not at all uncommon for the debtor to have gone bust by the time your claim gets before a court.
Debt collection is best carried out by a system of persistent and escalating actions with the intention of making it more attractive to the debtor to pay up rather than have to tolerate and fend off your endeavours. By becoming a serious pain in the **ss, they are much more likely to pay you and ignore the more timid creditors.

1. Make regular phone calls demanding payment.
2. Make robust/conspicuous personal visits seeking to collect the debt.
3. Send a 7 day final notice ( you can buy these preprinted) by registered post for maximum impact.
4. If none of the above have worked, your next step will probably depend on the amount of the debt. You might go to a debt collection agency or a solicitor, but you are now into incurring further costs and could be a case of throwing good money after bad.
5. You still have some low cost options. You can raise your own summons as outlined in an earlier post. Or you could issue a 21 day notice under sections 213/214 of the Companies Acts advising them that you will seek to have them liquidated as insolvent, must be by registered post. . You are absolutely entitled to issue such a notice (I have taken legal advice on exactly this point). However, to ACTION it, you must meet the stated debt value criteria. My experience over a long number of years is that if this fails, the debtor usually goes bust, or you get the money.

The game is about breaking down the debtor to get him to pay up and whichever course of measures get him to do that is the correct one, none is right or wrong, they are either effective for that debtor or not.

One point raised in this thread stated that anyone employed by a company is capable of binding that company to a contract, that is not always correct, they need to be authorised specifically, generally done by way of the role and norms of their position. An office cleaner ordering engineering supplies on their own initiative would be quite different to them ordering janitorial supplies. I won’t even go there in respect of people fraudulently ordering goods/services for personal use to be billed to the company.

In this particular case, the OP may well have recourse to the individual restaurant managers who actually engaged the OP in my opinion, if they knowingly acted outside their purchasing authority. This might be usefully leveraged in getting the company to pay up!

Cheers

Peter

NoQuarter

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Or you could issue a 21 day notice under sections 213/214 of the Companies Acts advising them that you will seek to have them liquidated as insolvent, must be by registered post. . You are absolutely entitled to issue such a notice (I have taken legal advice on exactly this point). However, to ACTION it, you must meet the stated debt value criteria.

No, you are not entitled to issue this notice to collect a debt. This procedure, as I have said earlier, is not a debt collection procedure. This process is to liquidate a company because they cant pay you. It is NOT to force money out of someone. There is a distinct difference and a huge difference and one that the courts have ruled on many times. I'm answering this point again for clarity for the tens of people who will read this thread in the future and consider taking Peter's advice which could land them in serious trouble.

I've checked the charter and it doesnt prohibit giving legal advice so consider that legal advice.

srsly78

I am close to filing a claim on http://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk (official HM court service website)

Very handy for chasing dodgy UK customers (edit: england and wales, not scotland, not sure about NI). The amount you pay depends on how big the claim is: e.g. £210 for £8000. Would be very handy if we had a similar government-run website here.

repsol

Pabmac wrote: »

TBH this is something students on a summer / casual job might do, not somebody genuinely trying to build up a business.
Bad press is a two way street.
Far better to be known as a business who does a good job but will resort to the law if not paid on time than be seen as petty and unprofessional.

"resort to the law" for a grand? It won't even cover the solicitors fee.The restaurant know OP cannot afford to take them on and are playing hardball.I don't think what sounds like a one man business needs to worry about "bad press".Nice guys get paid last or not at all.

Peterdalkey

NoQuarter wrote: »

No, you are not entitled to issue this notice to collect a debt. This procedure, as I have said earlier, is not a debt collection procedure. This process is to liquidate a company because they cant pay you. It is NOT to force money out of someone. There is a distinct difference and a huge difference and one that the courts have ruled on many times. I'm answering this point again for clarity for the tens of people who will read this thread in the future and consider taking Peter's advice which could land them in serious trouble.

I've checked the charter and it doesnt prohibit giving legal advice so consider that legal advice.

What a load of quasi legal waffle and arrant nonsense. As for your free legal advice, it is fully priced and fully valued.
I have taken specific legal advice in this matter and had vastly experienced corporate lawyers draw up the wording. I don't take legal advice from some punter on a forum, and nor should anyone else. You fail to substantiate your contention in any way. It may not be your version of the Queensbury Rules but the delinquent debtor gave up his rights to gentlemanly fair play by refusing to pay. If you have any actual law that would be broken, specify it or withdraw your remarks.
A knife was never designed or intended to be used as a screwdriver, but when needs must, it often is. In such matters it is the actual law that matters, not notions of what might have been intended. Such innovation is the lifeblood of the small business community, making the best of limited and finite resourses.

The Sir Humphry-esq " I can foresee unforeseen difficulties" argument you proffer simply does not wash.

You are perfectly entitled to write to any debtor, threatening whatever future action including seeking liquidation or many other forms of action, as long as it does not include any form of physical violence or intimidation. The debtor always has the opportunity to terminate any action by simply paying the outstanding amount.

I you can stand up your contention with specifcs as outlined above, I will donate Euro100 to the charity of your choice.

Gloomtastic!

Can we take side bets?

I'll have a tenner on..........

NoQuarter

Peterdalkey wrote: »

I you can stand up your contention with specifcs as outlined above, I will donate Euro100 to the charity of your choice.

Ok:-

Re Goode Concrete [2012] 11 JIC 0201

AIB had refused to support the Petitioner's motion because as a secured creditor, they felt there would be more chance of recovering the debt owed to them if the Competition Proceedings were given the best possibility to proceed to finality. These factors allowed the Court to draw an inference that the Petitioner and co-defendants did indeed have an ulterior motive as alleged and therefore, it was decided a winding up order was not appropriate.

Truck and Machinery Sales Ltd. v. Marubeni Komatsu Ltd. [1996]1 I.R. 12

"It is clear that where the company in good faith and on substantial grounds, disputes any liability in respect of the alleged debt, the petition will be dismissed, or if the matter is brought before the court before the petition is issued, its presentation will in normal circumstances be restrained. This is on the ground that a winding-up petition is not a legitimate means of seeking to enforce payment of a debt which is bona fide disputed.

The response dated 26th July, 2011 from Eversheds O'Donnell Sweeney was to the effect that that firm had authority to accept service of any proceedings issued, but it was stated that Hammond Lane would be seeking security for costs against the Company and that they had instructions to pursue the Company and its directors (in their personal capacity) for any loss and damage and legal costs incurred by Hammond Lane, including, but not limited to, damages for malicious abuse of the civil process of the courts.

In the matter of Silverhold Limited and the Companies Act 1963-2009 [2010] 4 JIC 1201

Abuse of process 34. Mr. McKenna in his affidavits has asserted that the presentation of the petition was an abuse of process. Ms. Friel, understandably, has taken umbrage at that assertion and has described it as being "glib and unwarranted". The evidence establishes that Ms. Friel first heard from an official of the company's bank, Ulster Bank, that the fees were being disputed on 4th March, 2009. Despite the raft of correspondence, which I have itemised earlier, from the petitioner and its solicitors to the company and its solicitors, the nature and basis of the dispute was never raised by the company with the petitioner until Mr. McKenna swore his first affidavit three weeks after the petition issued. In taking an overview of the matter, I am satisfied that issuing the petition was not an abuse of process, even though I consider that it should be dismissed for the reasons stated earlier.
Order
35. There will be an order dismissing the petition.

Cotton Box Design Group Ltd (plaintiff/the company) v Earls Court Company Ltd [2009] 5 JIC 2504

The proceedings arise out of plenary proceedings by the defendant seeking an order that the company be wound up by reason of non -compliance with a statutory demand under s214 of the Companies Act 1963, the company was insolvent. The plaintiff sought injunctions to restrain defendants from advertising or proceeding with petition to wind up the company. The plaintiff also sought an order dismissing or striking out the petition as being an abuse of the winding up procedure of the Court. The plaintiff contended that is not indebted to the petitioner in any sum and alleged it has an action against the petitioner for damages for breach of contract which gave rise to the debt. Held by Laffoy J in dismissing the petition; there is a bona fide and substantial dispute as regards the company's alleged indebtedness to the petitioner and also a bona fide case has been established that the prosecution would constitute an abuse of process.

Donal Rigney Limited v. Empresa de Construcoes Amandio Carvalho SA & others [2009] 11 JIC 2702

The undoubted power of the courts to restrain proceedings which are an abuse of process is one which should not be lightly exercised. In the context of winding-up petitions, I have no doubt that it should be exercised only when the plaintiff company has established at least a prima facie case that its presentation would constitute an abuse of process. In many cases, a prima facie case would be established where the plaintiff adduces evidence which satisfies the court that the petition is bound to fail or, at the least, that there is a suitable alternative remedy.

The original case:

In re A Company [1894] 2 Ch 349

Where a petition against a company is presented ostensibly for a winding-up order, but really for another purpose, such as putting pressure on a company, the Court has an inherent jurisdiction to prevent such an abuse of process, and will do so, without requiring an action to be commenced, by restraining the advertisement of the petition, and staying all proceedings upon it.

One more for the road:
Mann v. Goldstein [1968] 1 WLR 1091

It is well established that this court has jurisdiction to restrain the presentation or advertising of a winding-up petition and restrain all further proceedings on it. That jurisdiction is a facet of the court's inherent jurisdiction to prevent an abuse of the process of the court. It will be exercised where a winding-up application is presented or prosecuted otherwise than in accordance with the legitimate purpose of such process. (See, for example, In re A Company.

http://www.ispca.ie/

Donate button is top right.

Gloomtastic!

A quick Google on the matter brought this up http://www.tsplegal.com/services_for_business/corporate_commercial/using_a_winding_up_petition_to_chase_debts which states that yes, you can, but in the OP's case, it would be ill-advised.

However, I also sought advice from the highest authority in the land, Mrs Gloomster, who incidentally is one of Europe's top Credit Managers and is responsible for getting money in at one of Ireland's biggest law firms. I asked her 'can you use a Winding-up Order to chase money?'. She replied, 'No, not unless you have a judgment against the company first'.

NoQuarter

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

A quick Google on the matter brought this up http://www.tsplegal.com/services_for_business/corporate_commercial/using_a_winding_up_petition_to_chase_debts which states that yes, you can, but in the OP's case, it would be ill-advised.

However, I also sought advice from the highest authority in the land, Mrs Gloomster, who incidentally is one of Europe's top Credit Managers and is responsible for getting money in at one of Ireland's biggest law firms. I asked her 'can you use a Winding-up Order to chase money?'. She replied, 'No, not unless you have a judgment against the company first'.

Thats an English solicitors site and so doesnt completely represent the law here but English cases are considered in this jurisdiction too and so I have posted 2 in my earlier post. The rest are Irish High Court decisions.

But from that site:

"Abuse of process

Although a winding-up petition is a common tool in debt collection, the process was not designed for this purpose. It is possible that a court could find that you have abused the process of court and may dismiss your petition and make you liable for any of the debtor’s costs."


And what I said in my first post:

NoQuarter wrote: »

First of all, if the Courts thought that you were using this procedure as a debt collection procedure, not only would you lose the petition, but you would likely get the other sides costs awarded against you.

Peterdalkey

NoQuarter:
Pretty much what I expected. You have trotted out a reply to a question not posed in the classic mode of our beloved politicos. Lots of verbiage but sadly none of it relevant to the issue in question. You have got way ahead of yourself on this one by dealing with examples of case law reports pertaining to actual cases brought.

Not a single one refers to the writing of a 21 day letter in terms as outlined in my post regarding issuing a letter threatening winding up pursuant to Sections 213/214 of the Companies Acts. The reason is rather simple, it is not of itself a commencement of legal proceedings... it is but a letter and in my experience, a very effective one in collecting from delinquent debtors. Even the most amateur of barrack room lawyers know that to actually initiate any legal action the appropriate legal papers must be issued and served.
Lawyers write thousands of letters every day demanding all kind of actions, warning of consequences, and putting time deadlines in place. They are however just letters and are not legal proceedings. You may ignore them or any other letter but you do so at your own peril.
What is germane in your listing of court decisions, is the actual commercial outcome for those subject of the original winding up petitions, look them up, not at all good!

As Larry Gogan used to say, " Ah, the question today just did no suit you".

Gloomtastic: I will not quibble with Mrs Gloomster's reply to your actual question, but again you have asked her the wrong question. I note that you don’t state that she is a lawyer, but rather works in a lawyer’s office in the debt collection area.

Your homeschooling in this area was obviously very useful to you in trading while insolvent in your past. It appears to be a matter you seen to find amusing. I doubt your creditors of the time would share your emotion. Such tactics in the evasion of just debts are the bane of the SME sector and you do yourself no credit (pun intended). Working with children must be must less fun.

If I can find a charity dedicated to the education of indigent bar/barrack room lawyers, I will make a donation.

For the benefit of those who may read this thread in the future and in the interest of clarity. You are perfectly entitled to write to any debtor, threatening whatever future action you see fit including seeking liquidation pursuant to Sections 213/214 of the Companies Acts and/or many other forms of action, provided it does not include any form of physical violence or intimidation. The letter should be sent by registered post to the registered office of the debtor. The debtor always has the opportunity to terminate this or any other legal action by simply paying the outstanding amount. You are never obliged to issue proceedings.

Such a letter is an extremely effective debt collection tool of last resort, as the recipient never knows what you might do next. The consequences for them could be devastating and precipitate all their creditors to move against them. They ignore it at their own peril. Therein lies the power of this tool, their own fear motivates them to take the course of least consequence, make you go away by paying up.

MODS: I think we are done here, The OP’s last visit was 4 days ago. I, for one, am “un-following” this thread now.

dbran

Hi

If you are going the legal route then go and get legal advise. Or else write it off.

Dont hum an haw by posting on an online forum to get an opinion from the masses.

As this thread is getting a bit out of hand I will close it.

Best Regards

dbran