Rules Quiz

ShriekingSheet

Here's a few simple rules that aren't too out-there, but a fair amount of people might get them wrong.

See what you can get without initially checking the rule book. Then we'll put up the exact answers later.

All the info you need is in the descriptions. I'm fairly sure there's no "depending on" items left out, even if you think there is.


(1)
A cart path runs up the left side of a long par 4, with rough either side of it. John is a right-hander, and hooks his drive which ends up in the middle of the path. He takes a trial stance with a club, ensuring his ball and feet would both now be just about on the grass, so the path is just behind his heels. Where the club head rests, ensuring it's no nearer the hole, he puts a tee, and takes a drop within one club length of this point.
Has he made the right drop?

(2)
John is dropping from a water hazard. He measures two club lengths from the point of entry, not nearer the hole, and puts a tee in the ground to show the widest point he can drop at. He drops just inside this point, but the ball kicks and rolls beyond the tee. He's no nearer the hole, not in the hazard, but he's now just over 3 club lengths from the point of entry.
What does he do?

(3)
In a Medal, John has a range finder, but Steve does not. In the first fairway, Steve says to John, "can you check the yardage from my ball to the flag?", and John obliges. Another competitor hears and sees what's going on and reports it to the comittee.
What's the ruling?

(4)
In Junior Cup, John has made a play list on his mp3 player and listens to it as he plays for the day, though it's low enough for him to talk to his caddy and the other player when needed.
A competitor complains to a GUI official. What is the response?

(5)
In a match, Steve's ball is 10 yards ahead and right of John's ball in the fairway. Before his second shot, John acknowledges that Steve's ball isn't physically in his way, or affecting the path of his shot, but it's catching his eye. He asks for it to be marked.
Is this permitted?

(6)
In an Irish Mixed Foursomes match, John is putting along a line similar to that of his opponent. As John is about to play, he realises the opponent is standing exactly behind the line, watching for the break of the ball. John hits the putt and misses, but claims the hole.
Is he right?

Sandwlch

I'll have a go :

1. Dont follow this one. How is the ball first in the middle of the road and then on the grass when he takes his trial stance to it ????
2. Pick up and drop again
3. Play on. No penalty for either.
4. Disqualify for using an artificial aid
5. I think he has to mark it if requested
6. Dont think so. Just bad form by the opponent.

Mr. Larson

I wouldn't proclaim to be a rules guru but I'll take a stab at a few to get the ball rolling pardon pun.

[1] No. Personally I'd have stuck the tee in where my feet were not the clubhead. Interesting one tho, I'm not a bit sure
[2] Nothing. Once he drops the ball can roll & come to rest within a clublength & still be ok?
[3] No ruling. As the information on yardage was public knowledge so to speak. Just stating facts.
[4] Dunno really, I'd guess nothing wrong and no basis for complaint as long as it's not a smart-phone or device capable of measuring conditions etc.
[5] Yes?
[6] No, more of an etiquette issue than a rule breakage?

J6P

1. He should have dropped the other side of the path

2. Carry on as the ball is no nearer the hole

3. No rule broken

4. Disqualified

5. No

6. Yes

SnowDrifts

1) No, he has made an incorrect drop because the actual nearest point of relief would have been on the other side of the path so the ball should have been closest to the bath and not his heels ( being right handed)

2) Play it as it is, a dropped ball can roll up to 2 club lengths from the point where it first touches the ground

3) Nothing wrong - its fact and not advice.

4) Not sure

5) He is permitted to ask the ball to be marked

6) He is wrong. Think watching an opponent's line is just an etiquette issue.

PARlance

On the phone (not able to do spoiler). So I'll embarrass myself tomorrow morn.

slave1

5.

Yes, mental interference

GreeBo

(1)
A cart path runs up the left side of a long par 4, with rough either side of it. John is a right-hander, and hooks his drive which ends up in the middle of the path. He takes a trial stance with a club, ensuring his ball and feet would both now be just about on the grass, so the path is just behind his heels. Where the club head rests, he puts a tee, and takes a drop within one club length of this point.
Has he made the right drop?
Yes
/edit
This is wrong

(2)
John is dropping from a water hazard. He measures two club lengths from the point of entry, not nearer the hole, and puts a tee in the ground to show the widest point he can drop at. He drops just inside this point, but the ball kicks and rolls beyond the tee. He's no nearer the hole, not in the hazard, but he's now just over 3 club lengths from the point of entry.
What does he do?
Ball is in play
(3)
In a Medal, John has a range finder, but Steve does not. In the first fairway, Steve says to John, "can you check the yardage from my ball to the flag?", and John obliges. Another competitor hears and sees what's going on and reports it to the comittee.
What's the ruling?
No issue if dmds are allowed
(4)
In Junior Cup, John has made a play list on his mp3 player and listens to it as he plays for the day, though it's low enough for him to talk to his caddy and the other player when needed.
A competitor complains to a GUI official. What is the response?
No issue
(5)
In a match, Steve's ball is 10 yards ahead and right of John's ball in the fairway. Before his second shot, John acknowledges that Steve's ball isn't physically in his way, or affecting the path of his shot, but it's catching his eye. He asks for it to be marked.
Is this permitted?
Yes?
(6)
In an Irish Mixed Foursomes match, John is putting along a line similar to that of his opponent. As John is about to play, he realises the opponent is standing exactly behind the line, watching for the break of the ball. John hits the putt and misses, but claims the hole.
Is he right?
Yes

macdonagh2007

1. John has made an incorrect drop. He should have identified his nearest point of relief,put down his Tee and then measured one club length from the tee peg.

2. Re-drop his ball again with the 2 club-lengths.
3. No action, John is entitled to give the information to Steve but cannot give advise on how to play the shot.
4. If listening to the MP3 is causing no undue delay or disturbance to his opponent in the match all is in order. The GUI Official will no doubt examine the unit to see that it is compliant under the rules for using DMD.
5.Yes
6.No. If he was uncomfortable he should have asked his opponent to move away.

For Paws

Yes

Re-Drop

No penalty

DQ

No

No

GreeBo

Lets use spoiler tags please people, give everyone a chance to answer without seeing yours...

ShriekingSheet

Really interesting so far. Good to see people are giving their honest assumption, as they'd have to on the course, rather than just googling.

I'll post up the rulings and explanations tomorrow at lunch time. You'll see some interesting misconceptions.

Rikand

Fun Think I have about 4 of them right. Other two are definitely a guess

Confused by the stances in the question so I'll just say he must take his nearest point of relief, whatever that may be

play it as it lays homeboy!

It's okay to offer something factual, but you can't give your opinion on how the shot is played

As long as hes not gaining anything from using the MP3 player (i.e. instruction on how to play shots) this should be okay ?

Yes

Yes - though his opponent can scuttle in behind him once the stroke has been made

Kace

Here goes - let's see how many more rules I can quote incorrectly in one day !

1 - Incorrect drop. Should be at nearest point of relief.
2 - Ball is in play so not allowed to re-drop
3 - No issue. Yardages can be requested / checked with playing partners / opponents
4 - I have never heard of this one before, but would not have thought that this was not an issue, unless it was an iPhone of course ;-)
5 - Not sure, but I would have thought that he is entitled to ask for the ball to be marked.
6 - Yes, He is right

whizbang

1 the path -

no- not entitled to stance or lie just because of drop.

2 water

- no penalty -play as it lies

3 distance-

giving advise. however if one player benefits, then i believe all

players in the group should be entitled to it!
4 mp3-

no fault - known information, not measuring.

5 marking-

No. lifting ball not permitted under normal rules

6 putt -

Yes. line of putt extends beyond the hole

ShriekingSheet

So here's how people got on in order of right answers...

4. macdonagh2007 = 1, 3, 5, 6
4. Sandwich = 3, 4, 5, 6
4. Mr. Larson = 2, 3, 5, 6
4. J6P = 1, 2, 3, 4
4. Rickylovesuall = 1, 2, 3, 5
4. Kace = 1, 2, 3, 5

3. For Paws = 3, 4, 6
3. Greebo = 2, 3, 5

2. whizbang = 2, 3


Disqualified by the Committee:
5. SnowDrifts = 1, 2, 3, 5, 6
Used a rule book / google - word for word answers, and the one I put in that's hard to search for got a "not sure" response.

Explanations:

(1) The Path - Wrong Drop
A pretty regularly used rule, so important to get right. There is only one nearest point of relief. Your stance is included in relief, so given the ball was in the middle of the path, the right-handers stance meant the near side relief was further away. Dropping on the far (left) side means dropping only a few inches from the path is doable, so this is the nearest point.

(2) Hazard Drop - Play Away
You must drop your ball within two club lengths from the point of entry, but once it hits inside that distance, it can roll up to two club lengths from the point it struck the turf, and still be in play. In theory, you could end up almost 4 club lengths from the point of entry, and still not re-drop.

(3) DMD Use - No Issue
Factual info is not advice, so no problem.

(4) MP3 Player - Disqualified
It's an artificial aid by dint that it "might" help the player. The Decisions book clarifies it, and makes exception for things like briefly tuning in to a radio station to check the score of a football match, which is allowable. Having a playlist on for a prolonged period is not.
Yeah, it's a bit of a mad one, but thought it'd be relevant as you see more and more people practiceing with headphones in. I wouldn't consider it much of an aid, but I'd find it pig-ignorant if a guy did it to me in a match. So if only for that reason, I'm glad it's not allowed.

(5) Mark Ball - Mental Interference OK
This is fine - mentally or physically interfering is the same for another player's ball. He has to mark it.

(6) John's Line - Can't Claim Hole
It's just an ettiquette thing. There's nothing in the rules to stop an oponent in a match looking down your line or standing behind you.

Mr. Larson

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

So here's how people got on in order of right answers...

Poor enough show really, isn't it?? I swear to God lads, the amount of rules that get broken either inadvertently or deliberately every weekend is incredible.

ShriekingSheet

Mr. Larson wrote: »

Poor enough show really, isn't it?? I swear to God lads, the amount of rules that get broken either inadvertently or deliberately every weekend is incredible.

To be fair, most of them don't really matter.

It's the ones where guys are in a bad lie or a band situation, and invent reasons to take relief or re-drop etc that p*ss me off. Or when they take genuine relief, and the right place to drop is on a slope or in rough, so they adjust and go the other side, or anywhere there is a better lie.

link_2007

Absolute rookie mistake by SnowDrifts.

Rikand

yay - not last!

Thanks for running the quiz shrieking

SnowDrifts

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Disqualified by the Committee:
5. SnowDrifts = 1, 2, 3, 5, 6
Used a rule book / google - word for word answers, and the one I put in that's hard to search for got a "not sure" response.

Lol - are you serious?? Bit of fun and all that but I can honestly say, at no stage either before or after my post, did I look at rules online or in a physical book. I knew 1,2 and 3 100%. I was 80% sure of the last two. And 4, I wasn't sure!!! I guess I shall take my disqualification as a back handed compliment.

Also... if you look up my post history - I have advised people about point 2 and 3 on here last year.

IanPoulter

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Lol - are you serious?? Bit of fun and all that but I can honestly say, at no stage either before or after my post, did I look at rules online or in a physical book. I knew 1,2 and 3 100%. I was 80% sure of the last two. And 4, I wasn't sure!!! I guess I shall take my disqualification as a back handed compliment.

Also... if you look up my post history - I have advised people about point 2 and 3 on here last year.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

SnowDrifts

IanPoulter wrote: »

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Haha - damned if you do, damned if you don't

ShriekingSheet

The committee's decision shall be final.

The appeals office is open from 8am to 11am on the fifth Tuesday of every second month.

SnowDrifts

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The committee's decision shall be final.

The appeals office is open from 8am to 11am on the fifth Tuesday of every second month.

Do I need legal representation?

Let me show evidence exhibit A1

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78510406&postcount=1

So my answer for 2 looks word for word for ....... what I wrote last year

SnowDrifts

Article A2

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78164057&postcount=11

One thing is for sure, I wont be answering "not sure" for anything on the next quiz!!!:D:D:D:D

PARlance

IanPoulter wrote: »

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Congrats on your promotion to Mod Hood Ian

Imhof Tank

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

(1) The Path - Wrong Drop
A pretty regularly used rule, so important to get right. There is only one nearest point of relief. Your stance is included in relief, so given the ball was in the middle of the path, the right-handers stance meant the near side relief was further away. Dropping on the far (left) side means dropping only a few inches from the path is doable, so this is the nearest point.

.

Came to the thread too late but I would have been guessing from 3 onwards anyway.

On scenario 1 though - isn't the rule nearest point of relief not nearer the hole?

As you say, there is only ever 1 nearest point of relief obviously. However, if your player was left handed then the nearest point of relief for him would be on the near side of the path at a right angle to the path. This would be nearer to the hole so not available to him.

His options would then be either on the far side of the path or backwards and at an angle of say 45% on the near side of the path, but these would both be further away than the original "nearest point of relief".

ShriekingSheet

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Came to the thread too late but I would have been guessing from 3 onwards anyway.

On scenario 1 though - isn't the rule nearest point of relief not nearer the hole?

As you say, there is only ever 1 nearest point of relief obviously. However, if your player was left handed then the nearest point of relief for him would be on the near side of the path at a right angle to the path. This would be nearer to the hole so not available to him.

His options would then be either on the far side of the path or backwards and at an angle of say 45% on the near side of the path, but these would both be further away than the original "nearest point of relief".

Are you trying to make out that its ONE nearest point for ALL golfers!?

As in, the nearest point has to be the same for left and right handers!?

LOLs

PARlance

"The following diagram illustrates the term “nearest point of relief” in Rules 24-2 and 25-1 in the case of a right-handed player." From R&A



Re Question 1: I was thrown myself with the fact the ball was in the middle of the road

Imhof Tank

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Are you trying to make out that its ONE nearest point for ALL golfers!?

As in, the nearest point has to be the same for left and right handers!?

LOLs

Not at all - there is a nearest point of relief for a right hander and a different nearest point of relief for a left hander. My point is if the nearest point is closer to the hole than where the ball lay, that point its not available for the player to drop from.

Just your explanation on q1 didnt refer to the need to drop no nearer the hole when taking relief. AFAIK (without looking it up) there are 2 elements to the rule - (i) nearest point of relief and (ii) not nearer the hole.

ShriekingSheet

ajcurry123 wrote: »

"The following diagram illustrates the term “nearest point of relief” in Rules 24-2 and 25-1 in the case of a right-handed player." From R&A



Re Question 1: I was thrown myself with the fact the ball was in the middle of the road

Yeah, it's easy enough to understand. If a ball is in the middle. P1 and P2 would still be the options you'd consider, and P1 would be the nearest as it doesn't have to worry about stance. Simples.

ShriekingSheet

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Not at all - there is a nearest point of relief for a right hander and a different nearest point of relief for a left hander. My point is if the nearest point is closer to the hole than where the ball lay, that point its not available for the player to drop from.

Just your explanation on q1 didnt refer to the need to drop no nearer the hole when taking relief. AFAIK (without looking it up) there are 2 elements to the rule - (i) nearest point of relief and (ii) not nearer the hole.

With you now.

You're right, I didn't mention "no nearer". To be fair, in a rules quiz among golf nerds, there's little need to state the bleedin' obvious!

Nemesis

Got last 2 wrong.

The line of putt issue is nice to know but make sure it's your opponents your checking out and not your playing partners!



14-2 Assistance
In making a stroke a player must not:
b. Allow his caddie, his partner or his partner’s caddie to position himself on or close to an extension of the line of play or the line of putt behind the ball.

Ever play a scramble and check the line of putt your partners took by standing right behind them?

Imhof Tank

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

among golf nerds, there's little need to state the bleedin' obvious!

On the net yes, but out on the course I wouldn't be so sure that anything goes without saying, no matter how obvious, when it comes to challenging someone or defending your actions. Any little ambiguity or omission = manna from heaven for links lawyers.

ShriekingSheet

Imhof Tank wrote: »

On the net yes, but out on the course I wouldn't be so sure that anything goes without saying, no matter how obvious, when it comes to challenging someone or defending your actions. Any little ambiguity or omission = manna from heaven for links lawyers.

You missed the fact that I didn't say how he dropped it. The rules state that you must stand erect and drop from shoulder height.

In reality, John spat the ball out of his mouth while on his hands and knees.

Check. Mate.

ShriekingSheet

Nemesis wrote: »

Got last 2 wrong.

The line of putt issue is nice to know but make sure it's your opponents your checking out and not your playing partners!



14-2 Assistance
In making a stroke a player must not:
b. Allow his caddie, his partner or his partner’s caddie to position himself on or close to an extension of the line of play or the line of putt behind the ball.

Ever play a scramble and check the line of putt your partners took by standing right behind them?

Eh, all the time! D'oh!!

Although, there's no mention of the scramble format in the rules, so I'd say if you were to raise the issue, the Decision would just be that it's not legislated for, and in effect, a scramble is just a bit of craic.

That's just my guess though.

Imhof Tank

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

You missed the fact that I didn't say how he dropped it. The rules state that you must stand erect and drop from shoulder height.

In reality, John spat the ball out of his mouth while on his hands and knees.

Check. Mate.

Well you initially said all the info needed was in the descriptions so the use of an illegal dropping motion was never a possibility to be considered.

Thought the point of this thread was to assess people's familiarity with some pretty basic rules? Do you seriously think there are no golfers out there who would argue that they can drop at "the nearest point of relief" (if that gives them a good lie for example) even if its marginally nearer the hole?

ShriekingSheet

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Well you initially said all the info needed was in the descriptions so the use of an illegal dropping motion was never a possibility to be considered.

Thought the point of this thread was to assess people's familiarity with some pretty basic rules? Do you seriously think there are no golfers out there who would argue that they can drop at "the nearest point of relief" (if that gives them a good lie for example) even if its marginally nearer the hole?

I've edited the OP, for your enjoyment.

To answer your question, yes, I feel it goes without saying among people on this board that you don't drop the ball nearer the hole. The quiz is a bit of craic among people with a decent knowledge of the rules.

If you want excruciating, obvious detail on every item, the OP would be 7 pages long, and zero craic. It's taken you 5 posts to clarify one little detail of one rule. So you'll apreciate that I had to allow for common sense in abbrieviating 6 rules queries into one post.

Deise Vu

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

(5) Mark Ball - Mental Interference OK
This is fine - mentally or physically interfering is the same for another player's ball. He has to mark it.

I presume this only applies in matchplay as in your example? In medal play two players could be colluding to allow each other placing.

Memo to self: Do NOT enter any of the golf rules quizzes!

Thanks for the interesting info SS.

ShriekingSheet

Deise Vu wrote: »

I presume this only applies in matchplay as in your example? In medal play two players could be colluding to allow each other placing.

Memo to self: Do NOT enter any of the golf rules quizzes!

Thanks for the interesting info SS.

Well, three things.

1) the ball in this instance can't be cleaned. You see tour players holding the ball between their thumb and forefinger very obviously for this reason.

2) it's not like winter rules where you get six inches, you have to place it back exactly as it lay.

3) I'm 85% sure collusion like that can be determined by committee and they can disqualify both guys. I wouldnt even bother checking it though, because how would you report and prove it etc.

Practically speaking, if someone or two people were going to that length to cheat, they'd cheat regardless of the detail of the rule, so this rule doesn't help or hinder their cheating IMO.

Imhof Tank

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

To answer your question, yes, I feel it goes without saying among people on this board that you don't drop the ball nearer the hole. The quiz is a bit of craic among people with a decent knowledge of the rules.

.

That is a matter of opinion. I have seen some amazing interpretations of the rules on this forum over the years.

I'll say this SS - the minute you leave any detail out of a scenario when giving a rules decision - no matter how obvious it may be to you - you are opening the door for some links lawyer to argue black is white against you.

I am not even disagreeing with your ruling on q1. You seem to have a problem with me pointing out in a very non confrontational way that your explanation was incomplete however. In fact your explanation was exactly the kind of thing that would be seized upon by chancers in clubs everywhere ........" go ahead Mick, just drop away there at the nearest point of relief, thats the rule all right, sure didnt I read it on boards.ie, heh, heh, ............."

ShriekingSheet

Imhof Tank wrote: »

That is a matter of opinion. I have seen some amazing interpretations of the rules on this forum over the years.

I'll say this SS - the minute you leave any detail out of a scenario when giving a rules decision - no matter how obvious it may be to you - you are opening the door for some links lawyer to argue black is white against you.

I am not even disagreeing with your ruling on q1. You seem to have a problem with me pointing out in a very non confrontational way that your explanation was incomplete however. In fact your explanation was exactly the kind of thing that would be seized upon by chancers in clubs everywhere ........" go ahead Mick, just drop away there at the nearest point of relief, thats the rule all right, sure didnt I read it on boards.ie, heh, heh, ............."

Great. Thanks for your contribution.

Imhof Tank

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Great. Thanks for your contribution.

No need for that - just use the button if you want to thank me.

For Paws

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

With you now.

You're right, I didn't mention "no nearer". To be fair, in a rules quiz among golf nerds, there's little need to state the bleedin' obvious!

Many thanks for putting the quiz together.

As to 'need to state', yeah there is.

The Rules are one thing, and as q.1 illustrates The Decisions are another.

ShriekingSheet

For Paws wrote: »

Many thanks for putting the quiz together.

As to 'need to state', yeah there is.

The Rules are one thing, and as q.1 illustrates The Decisions are another.

Q4 Illustrates that.
Q1 is just plain and simple application of the rule.

The whole rule, as Imof Tank rightly points out.

For Paws

Appalled I only got 3 from 6

Time to get the old ruel booook out !

PARlance

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yeah, it's easy enough to understand. If a ball is in the middle. P1 and P2 would still be the options you'd consider, and P1 would be the nearest as it doesn't have to worry about stance. Simples.

Got a bit of a laugh when I clicked on the "definition of "Nearest point of Relief"" link on the R&A site

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