Work problem

blahblah06

Hi guys
Quick one for ya
My mrs was given today off as a holiday day due to our dog dying.
The job got cover from somebody else who has called in sick because cant make it to work in the snow.
Now work is demanding that my girlfriend comes in today.
Who is in the wrong here?
I believe it's the fault of the girl stuck in the snow.
The manager is been verth abrupt here.
Is there anything we can do here

tatli_lokma

I think now that it has been approved it can't be cancelled at such short notice - check the contract or company handbook about this as it should be in there as to how much notice has to be given.

It is not the girl who is stuck in the snow who is to blame. As an employer you have to take peoples safety into account and in parts of Dublin the snow is quite bad this morning (in my place it was about 3 inches thick). However, she has taken an uncertified sick day and she isn't sick - but if the employer is prepared to allow that, then that is between her and the boss, nothing to do with your GF.

I suppose the difference is that the girl in the snow can't make it to work, whereas your GF is not emotionally able for work, but could come in.

IMO a more reasonable compromise would be for the boss to tell the snowed in girl to come in a bit later. I would say that by 10am conditions will have seriously improved (unless she is in Slane or somewhere).


Was your GF leave requests as per company procedure or just verbally? If it has been properly approved and signed off on, then her boss cannot make her come to work. But only your GF can decide if its a battle worth fighting?

Perhaps she could suggest that she will come in until lunchtime, and by then teh other girl should be well able to make it to work. At least then she is meeting half way and the boss can't ask fairer than that?

So sorry to hear of your loss by the way - I was following your thread over on Animals and Pet issues. I know how devastated she must be - unfortunately her boss probably doesn't understand how emotionally draining it is to have a best friend taken away.

bbam

I'd say your GF needs to get herself together and go to work.

An uncertified sick day over a dead pet will be thrown up at any review.

As a manager I'd never ever give a sick day for that. It was a crazy decision.


Edit: on re reading it wasn't a sick day she was given. But still, awful reason for a day off and now shell be taking the flack for work being down a person. I'd still say get herself into work and be a proper grown up. The dog will still be dead at the weekend, she can mope about it then.

liquoriceall

I know where I work if you swop a shift it remains your responsibility so if the other person goes out sick you are called to come in

tatli_lokma

She didn't swap a shift - she took an annual leave day from her own entitlement. The other girl who agreed to work to cover her AL is unable to come to work due to weather conditions. The boss is allowing the other girl to use an uncertified sick day when she is not sick. At the very least there is unfairness in how one staff member is treated versus another. The girl on 'sick' leave could well get into work at some stage - all be it late.

I think the only reason the boss is asking OP's GF to come in is because he doesn't feel bereavement due to a pet is a valid reason to take a day off. But that is neither here nor there, he allowed her to book an AL day - what she does on that day, or why she needs it is not his business.

He should be fair to both and asking someone to cancel an AL day, regardless of whether they are upset or out shopping is unfair and should only be a last resort. He should be asking the other girl to make an effort to get in, in so far as it is safe to do so. And unless is in slane or one or two other pockets of North Dublin she should be able to manage it.

blahblah06

Hi all
Ok my gf told the boss she can come in until 1pm but boss wouldn't accept this compromise.
Boss rang my gf 13 times between 7:30 and 8:30 while we where sleeping.
Boss rang back after my gf saying she will come into work till 1 and told her not to bother to come in as she needs cover after 1 o clock

She had today booked off from last Thursday as my dog was due to get an operation in Belfast this morning but passed away yesterday

tempnam

bbam wrote: »

I'd say your GF needs to get herself together and go to work.

An uncertified sick day over a dead pet will be thrown up at any review.

As a manager I'd never ever give a sick day for that. It was a crazy decision.


Edit: on re reading it wasn't a sick day she was given. But still, awful reason for a day off and now shell be taking the flack for work being down a person. I'd still say get herself into work and be a proper grown up. The dog will still be dead at the weekend, she can mope about it then.

Sorry to go off topic but I couldn't leave that comment without a response.

'As a manager' - you should know better than to make judgement on any reasons why someone takes a day off from their annual leave entitlement. It's not really any of your business why someone takes a holiday.

Also - It's a bit harsh to say she should 'mope' about it at the weekend. People have strong emotional attachments to their animals. It's heartbreaking when one dies.

Just because you can't see that, does not mean that everyone else should bury their emotions and not deal with them.

tempnam

blahblah06 wrote: »

Hi all
Ok my gf told the boss she can come in until 1pm but boss wouldn't accept this compromise.
Boss rang my gf 13 times between 7:30 and 8:30 while we where sleeping.
Boss rang back after my gf saying she will come into work till 1 and told her not to bother to come in as she needs cover after 1 o clock

She had today booked off from last Thursday as my dog was due to get an operation in Belfast this morning but passed away yesterday

Your GF's boss is bordering on harassment with all those phone calls at that time. She had a day booked off as a holiday. End of story.

The boss does not need to know any more detail than that. For all he knows she could be staying in another part of the country / left the country.

If you both booked 2 weeks off and went abroad would the boss feel within his rights to call her and demand she come home and go to work?

A holiday is a holiday. She is entitled to it and the boss does not need to know why she took the day off.

tatli_lokma

OP I think your GF needs to be prepared for the fallout from this, which is the last thing she needs right now I know.

Your GF had pre-approved annual leave. Whilst her employer could make a request to her to do him a favour and come in, given the short notice and the fact she had booked her leave in advance it is not unreasonable for her to refuse. However, she may find that the manager wants to try to discipline her for refusing or might hold a grudge for it. My advice to your GF is to stand her ground. She was prepared to make a compromise which was refused by the manager. She was more than accommodating. She has no fear of disciplinary action so tell her not to be intimidated by the jumped up little jonny who seems to be putting all the responsibility on her to show and none on the other girl.

IMO it is the girl who called in 'sick' due to snow who should be disciplined. Whilst employers do have a responsibility to employees to ensure they are safe and should not ask someone to put themselves at risk by driving in dangerous conditions, they do not have to allow it to be a sick day. An unpaid leave day or AL yes, but not sick day. By doing that you are bending the rules for one, and yet asking someone who followed the rules (OP's GF who booked her AL with prior notice) to be the one to do a favour.

I would ask the boss too - had OP not had an AL day booked and was due into work and genuinely got sick, what would happen? the other girl still would be snowed in. As a manager they should have better provisions for unexpected absences - it is not beyond the realms of reason that more than one member of staff might get sick/snowed in/vomiting bug etc. The OP'd GF should not be the one to bend over backwards, surely there are other staff who can be called upon? or the girl in the snow should well be able to get to work by 1pm. As I say my area was thick with snow, pretty badly affected this morning at 6.30am but by all accounts is much improved now and I would say by lunchtime will be reasonably clear.

And the buses/trains etc are still running, so no reason why 'girl in snow' can't get her arse there at some stage.

bbam

tempnam wrote: »

Sorry to go off topic but I couldn't leave that comment without a response.

'As a manager' - you should know better than to make judgement on any reasons why someone takes a day off from their annual leave entitlement. It's not really any of your business why someone takes a holiday.

Also - It's a bit harsh to say she should 'mope' about it at the weekend. People have strong emotional attachments to their animals. It's heartbreaking when one dies.

Just because you can't see that, does not mean that everyone else should bury their emotions and not deal with them.

Nope, I wouldn't give a short notice holiday over a dead pet.
Neither would I ring 13 times in an hour.

The manager shouldn't have given the day, and the GF needs to be realistic.
Like it or not she's being associated with the lack of staff today. She'd be very wrong to think this won't come up again or be held against her.
Really, why can't she go in thismorning?
She could have used today to build some credit by coming in when the other girl let things down, instead she is now the problem in her bosses eyes.

Employees need to understand how their manager operates, if a manager makes a big deal about something then it's a big deal, and foolish not to work along with it. Right or wrong, when you piss your manager off they rarely forget it.

I've openly admitted to employees, I have a very long memory, and a very mean streak.

blahblah06

To the previous poster my gf is ways the first to help out when then manager is stuck but when it comes to this she's the guilty party?
No more favours for that boss

tatli_lokma

bbam wrote: »

Nope, I wouldn't give a short notice holiday over a dead pet.

the leave was pre-approved from last week and was intended for OP and his GF to travel to belfast to bring their dog for an operation. Unfortunately the poor mutt died in the meantime and so they are not travelling. Had the pooch still been alive, OP and his GF would be halfway to Belfast by now and there is no way the manager could have expected her to get him out of his hole.

The predicament he finds himself in is of his own making - he approved the leave (the reason for it is neither here nor there, even if the dog hadn't died if she wants to sit at home and scratch her arse on her pre-booked and pre-approved annual leave day that is her perogative. If he does not have adequate staff to cover a possibility of 2 people out sick/snowed in or whatever then he is not a very good manager - as he is not managing his staffing needs.

bbam wrote: »

Employees need to understand how their manager operates, if a manager makes a big deal about something then it's a big deal, and foolish not to work along with it. Right or wrong, when you piss your manager off they rarely forget it.

I've openly admitted to employees, I have a very long memory, and a very mean streak.

Glad you don't work with me and glad I don't have to deal with the HR fallout from your attitude - its this sort of arrogant attitude that gets decent managers a bad name.

Ms Tootsie

bbam wrote: »

I've openly admitted to employees, I have a very long memory, and a very mean streak.

You should openly admit this to your higher ups and I am sure they would tell you it is a damn poor quality to have as a manager. A manager needs to be a people person. Holding grudges and using a mean streak is the sign of a petty person not a successful manager if you ask me.

As for the AL the OP states it was booked on Thursday, today is now Tuesday - that is more than 24 hours and does not count as short notice AL leave. The responsibility on this lies with the manager. The annual leave was booked, it was up to the manager to sort the cover, just because the cover fell through it is not the responsibility of the person on AL to cancel their AL and come into work.

OP I am sorry you and your GF have had to deal with this on top of losing your pet. It is like losing a family member. I was following your thread over in Animals and Pet issues and I know how devastated you are. Ignore and rude and derogatory posts on this thread about how your beloved dog was 'only a pet'.

bbam

Thanks.
Actually at last feedback my employees rated me in the top 10% of the 200 mangers in our company.

Ms Tootsie

bbam wrote: »

Thanks.
Actually at last feedback my employees rated me in the top 10% of the 200 mangers in our company.

Probably out of fear that if they didnt you would hold a grudge, use your long memory and inact your mean streak.......

beertons

The boss gave it as a holiday. Tell the missus to turn her phone off, and deal with it tomorrow. It doesn't matter what arrangement he has with the one oxn maternity leave, that's their business.

another question

tempnam wrote: »

Sorry to go off topic but I couldn't leave that comment without a response.

'As a manager' - you should know better than to make judgement on any reasons why someone takes a day off from their annual leave entitlement. It's not really any of your business why someone takes a holiday.

Also - It's a bit harsh to say she should 'mope' about it at the weekend. People have strong emotional attachments to their animals. It's heartbreaking when one dies.

Just because you can't see that, does not mean that everyone else should bury their emotions and not deal with them.

Couldn't agree with this more, that above comment couldn't have angered me more. How dare anyone tell someone else to get themselves together, especially when the day was booked as a holiday day. And calling between 7:30-8:30 13 times is what I would be calling harrassment.

Rasmus

Your GF was already signed off on holiday. The circumstances of why are irrelevant. The fact that the manager has been left short-handed is not her concern - if he is willing to operate a system of unreliable staffing (like getting a cash-in hand short-notice employee already on leave) he should be willing to take the shift himself. I don't know what kind of job your GF has but for the most part this is a pretty straightforward situation - not her problem.

seamus

The holiday was signed off last week, the boss has no leg to stand on here.

Staffing problems are for the boss to deal with, not the staff. Politely tell the boss that you won't be cancelling your approved holiday and then turn off the phone.

tatli_lokma

If the manager makes a big deal of it or tries to bully your GF about this, she should just remind him that he is breaking the law in allowing the one on maternity to even be working in the first place, so he would be wise to leave her alone or he might find that the relevant authorities find out about his little cash in hand totally illegal arrangement with the maternity leave person!

Sounds like a right peach of a manager! :rolleyes:

blahblah06

Little Ted wrote: »

If the manager makes a big deal of it or tries to bully your GF about this, she should just remind him that he is breaking the law in allowing the one on maternity to even be working in the first place, so he would be wise to leave her alone or he might find that the relevant authorities find out about his little cash in hand totally illegal arrangement with the maternity leave person!

Sounds like a right peach of a manager! :rolleyes:

LOL looks like we both think along the same lines.

That's exactly what I said

Thank everyone

another question

bbam wrote: »

Nope, I wouldn't give a short notice holiday over a dead pet. The manager shouldn't have given the day, and the GF needs to be realistic.I've openly admitted to employees, I have a very long memory, and a very mean streak.

What is your problem? The staff member was entitled to holidays and had the day pre-authorised, the manager can't back track on that, what the hell has the GF being realistic got to do with anything. If she books a days hols to stand on her head it is no business of the manager whatsoever.

With reference to your last line, I would never have imagined that someone would write something about themselves that makes them look like a jumped up idiot.

tatli_lokma

bbam wrote: »

Thanks.
Actually at last feedback my employees rated me in the top 10% of the 200 mangers in our company.

doesn't say much for the quality of the other 90%. Being the best of a bad lot is not a great compliment

tempnam

bbam wrote: »

Nope, I wouldn't give a short notice holiday over a dead pet.
Neither would I ring 13 times in an hour.

The manager shouldn't have given the day, and the GF needs to be realistic.
Like it or not she's being associated with the lack of staff today. She'd be very wrong to think this won't come up again or be held against her.
Really, why can't she go in thismorning?
She could have used today to build some credit by coming in when the other girl let things down, instead she is now the problem in her bosses eyes.

Employees need to understand how their manager operates, if a manager makes a big deal about something then it's a big deal, and foolish not to work along with it. Right or wrong, when you piss your manager off they rarely forget it.

I've openly admitted to employees, I have a very long memory, and a very mean streak.

:rolleyes:

The reason for the holiday is irrelevant. When you book a holiday you don't have to give a reason. It was not short notice, it was 1 day, booked 4 working days in advance.

I think you're missing the point. Attention to detail obviously isn't a requirement in your managerial role...

bbam wrote: »

Thanks.
Actually at last feedback my employees rated me in the top 10% of the 200 mangers in our company.

Does that reflect well on you or poorly on the other 90%?

John_Mc

bbam wrote: »

Thanks.
Actually at last feedback my employees rated me in the top 10% of the 200 mangers in our company.

I don't believe that for a second.

westies4ever

bbam wrote: »

I'd say your GF needs to get herself together and go to work.

An uncertified sick day over a dead pet will be thrown up at any review.

As a manager I'd never ever give a sick day for that. It was a crazy decision.


Edit: on re reading it wasn't a sick day she was given. But still, awful reason for a day off and now shell be taking the flack for work being down a person. I'd still say get herself into work and be a proper grown up. The dog will still be dead at the weekend, she can mope about it then.

bbam wrote: »

Nope, I wouldn't give a short notice holiday over a dead pet.
Neither would I ring 13 times in an hour.

The manager shouldn't have given the day, and the GF needs to be realistic.
Like it or not she's being associated with the lack of staff today. She'd be very wrong to think this won't come up again or be held against her.
Really, why can't she go in thismorning?
She could have used today to build some credit by coming in when the other girl let things down, instead she is now the problem in her bosses eyes.

Employees need to understand how their manager operates, if a manager makes a big deal about something then it's a big deal, and foolish not to work along with it. Right or wrong, when you piss your manager off they rarely forget it.

I've openly admitted to employees, I have a very long memory, and a very mean streak.

bbam wrote: »

Thanks.
Actually at last feedback my employees rated me in the top 10% of the 200 mangers in our company.

Quite the charmer arent you? Sometimes, theres more to life than work.

The holiday was approved, end of, and 13 calls is ridiculous. The manager has got into a temper and is taking it out on your girlfriend.

Even if the circumstances were different (ie it was a normal holiday and not for such as personal reason) hes still way out of line.

On an aside, if either of my dogs died, you wouldnt see me for at least a week, id be bawling if anyone looked side roads at me.

And if my boss was such an insenstive prick, id be straight to the doctor for a cert.

my condolences on your dog OP, and im sorry your girlfriend now has to spend the day worrying about work.

inmyday

bbam wrote: »

I've openly admitted to employees, I have a very long memory, and a very mean streak.

If you were my boss, I would have walked away, the day you acted the tough guy and said the above statement. What kind of boss would say that? A clown of a boss if ya ask me

Annual leave is none of a boss's business. If you're going abroad or just sitting at home watching porn all day. It doesn't matter, as it is annual leave.

The woman in the OP, should tell her boss to go and **** himself. see ya in the morning!

tatli_lokma

well except for the go **** himself, cos then it would be playing into his hands as speaking to your boss like that would be genuine grounds for dismissal or at least a disciplinary. Feel free to call him a moron though, that is allowed, just not a ****ing moron! lol

seamus

inmyday wrote: »

Annual leave is none of a boss's business. If you're going abroad or just sitting at home watching porn all day. It doesn't matter, as it is annual leave.

Strictly speaking the boss has an obligation to give due regard to family needs when approving annual leave, so it would matter to the boss whether your holiday is week with the kids in Disneyworld or a day on the couch scratching your balls. But once the holiday is signed off on, then it's pretty much irrelevant what you plan on doing with your day.

The boss must provide a least a months' notice before cancelling approved leave. They can request short-term cancellation for staffing "emergencies", but the employee can refuse and the boss has no legal or moral right to be upset about it.

tatli_lokma

seamus wrote: »

Strictly speaking the boss has an obligation to give due regard to family needs when approving annual leave, so it would matter to the boss whether your holiday is week with the kids in Disneyworld or a day on the couch scratching your balls. But once the holiday is signed off on, then it's pretty much irrelevant what you plan on doing with your day.

Hmmm well strictly speaking no, it shouldn't matter to the boss if you are off with the kids or scratching your nads. There is no hierarchy in place, meaning that time off to spend with your family is not more important to time off to do nowt. What an employer must do is

take into account your family responsibilities, opportunities for rest and recreation that are available to you and to consult with you (or your union) at least one month before the leave is to be taken

so both family responsibilities AND rest and recreation are equally as important. So if you feel that you genuinely need a few days off to scratch yourself in order to rest then you are within your rights to request time off for that. It should not be a bosses concern how you spend your rest and recreation time, as it is your personal statutory entitlement. The only time it should be a consideration is if two staff want the same time off and one is only going to be sitting at home but the other wants to say, attend a family occasion or whatever. Then I suppose you could make a judgement call on it - given that sitting at home scratching yourself could wait a week!

Necro

bbam wrote: »

Thanks.
Actually at last feedback my employees rated me in the top 10% of the 200 mangers in our company.

I hope they also rated you on your spelling.... Your attitude is disgusting. If the annual leave was booked off, as stated above - for the OP's girlfriend to travel to Belfast then she has no obligation to come to work. Any attempt to discipline her would land said manager in hot water

bbam

Lets look at a few facts rather than slinging mud...

1. this manager was wrong to give the holiday based on bringing in a cash in hand person on maternity leave.

2. the manager was also wrong to call a dozen times in an hour pressuring the employee to come in... most companies would have the manager ring to see if the leave could be cancelled to get cover in.

3. I think the GF could have gone in and given the company a dig out, its not like there is a funeral to be arranged or people calling to the house to sympathise.

4. Its foolish for employees to think that if their manager rings looking for a favour or dig out, that turning them down will just be forgotten.

5. Employees who don't "play ball" get remembered when there is ****ty work, poor reviews or shorter hours to be handed out. People need to realise that this is the real truth, its short sighted not to see this.

6. these points are clearly more prominent in high volume busy scenarios where a missing staff member is a disaster for the day..


Thankfully I've moved to a job where more flexibility exists.. And I'm not a monster, a quarter of my lads (including myself) are starting late today because of the weather, but I'll be calling in the favour when it suits me, they are well aware of that, swings and roundabouts !!

seamus

bbam wrote: »

And I'm not a monster, a quarter of my lads (including myself) are starting late today because of the weather, but I'll be calling in the favour when it suits me

You see, to me, a "good" manager wouldn't keep track of single incidents outside of the employees control and use them as an excuse to call in a favour later on.
"I need to take an extra 30 minutes at lunch for an appointment" or, "I need to head off early to collect my car from the garage". They're favours.

"I'm going to be late because it snowed last night" is just "**** happens", and I would consider it very petty to pat yourself on the back and applaud yourself for being a good manager that you "allowed" your staff to be late as a "favour".

Even more funny that you yourself are going to be late with no penalty, yet all of the rest of your staff will have to work back their time later on. Nice.

A good manager would say "Don't worry about it, it's outside your control" and forget about calling in favours later on.

Necro

bbam wrote: »

Lets look at a few facts rather than slinging mud...

1. this manager was wrong to give the holiday based on bringing in a cash in hand person on maternity leave.

2. the manager was also wrong to call a dozen times in an hour pressuring the employee to come in... most companies would have the manager ring to see if the leave could be cancelled to get cover in.

3. I think the GF could have gone in and given the company a dig out, its not like there is a funeral to be arranged or people calling to the house to sympathise.

4. Its foolish for employees to think that if their manager rings looking for a favour or dig out, that turning them down will just be forgotten.

5. Employees who don't "play ball" get remembered when there is ****ty work, poor reviews or shorter hours to be handed out. People need to realise that this is the real truth, its short sighted not to see this.

6. these points are clearly more prominent in high volume busy scenarios where a missing staff member is a disaster for the day..


Thankfully I've moved to a job where more flexibility exists.. And I'm not a monster, a quarter of my lads (including myself) are starting late today because of the weather, but I'll be calling in the favour when it suits me, they are well aware of that, swings and roundabouts !!

You're talking complete nonsense. In what world is an employee expected to 'play ball' as you eloquently put it when circumstances outside their control come into play? The snow example you give is entirely hypocritical, if you were late why would you expect anyone to owe you a 'favour'??
Fact is, AL was given. Employer has absolutely NO right to call up on that morning numerous times and demand the employee comes to work - regardless of the circumstances.

tatli_lokma

and important to note, the OP's manager didn't call in a favour or ask the person to give them a dig out of a mess of their own making. the boss 'demanded' (OP's own words) that the GF come in. Not asked, demanded. When she said no, he then harrassed her further hoping to wear her down. This is not the sort of manager who plays ball. This is not the sort of manager who will appreciate the favour. This is the sort of manager who thinks that everyone should dance to his tune, even when his tune is played on a broken fiddle.

And no there is no funeral to be arranged in the same way a human funeral would, but the OP and his GF are still entitled to grieve and deal with it. Loosing a pet can be really upsetting, not for everyone, but for many people it is. If the OP's GF wants to use her pre-booked and pre-authorised day to deal with her grief that is her business. There is no onus on her to accomodate a plank of a manager who clearly is prepared to bend the rules to suit him (i.e allowing a person on maternity leave to work cash in hand) but wants to ignore the rules of decency and fair play and cancel the OP's GF AL.

bbam

Sure folks believe what you want.

I've sat in annual performance reviews and redundancy selections where this sfuff comes up and is acted on.

This is reality, successfull employees see this and work with it. Then there are always those who blindly go along thinking that they can have everything to suit themselves, they become very easy pickings when the pressure is on.

I see no problem with remembering when an employee started late or got 30 minutes longer lunch. When I need someone to open early or wait late for a delivery, guess who I'll be calling on.

And I never said I wouldn't have to repay my late starts. I've been asked to "manage that guy out the door", among other things, we all have our own managers to deal with. But it all goes earlier if you open your eyes to the way business works and work with it rather than against the system.

Rasmus

bbam wrote: »

I see no problem with remembering when an employee started late or got 30 minutes longer lunch.

What's important to note here is that you are talking about employee performance in the workplace. The employee in question did nothing wrong.

bbam

Rasmus wrote: »

What's important to note here is that you are talking about employee performance in the workplace. The employee in question did nothing wrong.

Agreed.
The GFs manager is bang out of order by using cash in hand cover and ringing more than once to ask her to come in.
What I'm being tarred and feathered for is explaining that the manager may associate her with the staff shortage and that there are often knock on implications. Oh, and aparrenty my spelling is bad.
And my opinion that a dead pet is a weak excuse for a day off. If I rang an employee to give a dig out and they couldn't as the BFs dog had died, I'd be fairly pissed and probably wouldn't forget it the next time she asks for a favour.

Necro

bbam wrote: »

Agreed.
The GFs manager is bang out of order by using cash in hand cover and ringing more than once to ask her to come in.
What I'm being tarred and feathered for is explaining that the manager may associate her with the staff shortage and that there are often knock on implications. Oh, and aparrenty my spelling is bad.
And my opinion that a dead pet is a weak excuse for a day off. If I rang an employee to give a dig out and they couldn't as the BFs dog had died, I'd be fairly pissed and probably wouldn't forget it the next time she asks for a favour.

Apparently.... but I digress. If you read the thread properly you'll discover the day off was not for the dead pet, but actually to travel to Belfast. It had been arranged in advance before.

tatli_lokma

bbam wrote: »

And my opinion that a dead pet is a weak excuse for a day off. If I rang an employee to give a dig out and they couldn't as the BFs dog had died, I'd be fairly pissed and probably wouldn't forget it the next time she asks for a favour.

You don't need an excuse for a day off if it is AL. AL is a statutory entitlement. If you use that day off to care for a sick pet, or to tickle your own fancy, or to stand on your head and whistle dixie that is your own choice. End of. The only justification you need for taking a day of is that it is for rest and reecreation. That is the only reason you need to give to your boss, no more. If your boss feels that your request for AL is not suitable to the needs of the business s/he can refuse your request and advise you of a better time to take it which is more suitable to business needs. But they still need to allow you your statutory entitlement, regardless of what agreement you make as to when it is taken. If said boss is so shortsighted that they cannot see that in order for someone to take time off they will need to ask someone on maternity leave to cover cash in hand, then the boss is a twat.

And if you are using 'favours' as a method of performance managing someone, you better hope that your arse doesn't end up in an EAT.

And.... if you are allowing people favours of going early in return for staying late another time, then again, you could find yourself with a fine for not accurately recording staff attendence in line with the organisation of working time act.

And..... favours work both ways - if a manager expects favours then they need to give them. From reading between the lines the OP's GF boss is more of a taker than a giver. If they were decent more chance the GF would have worked something out. But as mentioned before, they didn't ask for a favour, they demanded she turn up. The GF was prepared to compromise with the manger, but that was not enough, it was all or nothing. This is not a manager who remembers to return favours. More likely they would not even see it as a favour, but their entitlement.

bbam

Little Ted wrote: »

You don't need an excuse for a day off if it is AL. AL is a statutory entitlement. If you use that day off to care for a sick pet, or to tickle your own fancy, or to stand on your head and whistle dixie that is your own choice. End of. The only justification you need for taking a day of is that it is for rest and reecreation. That is the only reason you need to give to your boss, no more. If your boss feels that your request for AL is not suitable to the needs of the business s/he can refuse your request and advise you of a better time to take it which is more suitable to business needs. But they still need to allow you your statutory entitlement, regardless of what agreement you make as to when it is taken. If said boss is so shortsighted that they cannot see that in order for someone to take time off they will need to ask someone on maternity leave to cover cash in hand, then the boss is a twat.

And if you are using 'favours' as a method of performance managing someone, you better hope that your arse doesn't end up in an EAT.

And.... if you are allowing people favours of going early in return for staying late another time, then again, you could find yourself with a fine for not accurately recording staff attendence in line with the organisation of working time act.

And..... favours work both ways - if a manager expects favours then they need to give them. From reading between the lines the OP's GF boss is more of a taker than a giver. If they were decent more chance the GF would have worked something out. But as mentioned before, they didn't ask for a favour, they demanded she turn up. The GF was prepared to compromise with the manger, but that was not enough, it was all or nothing. This is not a manager who remembers to return favours. More likely they would not even see it as a favour, but their entitlement.

If you think organisations operate without politics then your deluding yourself. Those who play the game are successful, those that don't, risk becoming cannon fodder when the going gets tough. I've seen it play out many times in different organisations, two multinationals and two indigenous. I would have thought more people realised it.

Necro

bbam wrote: »

If you think organisations operate without politics then your deluding yourself. Those who play the game are successful, those that don't, risk becoming cannon fodder when the going gets tough. I've seen it play out many times in different organisations, two multinationals and two indigenous. I would have thought more people realised it.

You're changing the argument now - taking this completely off topic with mundane 'play the game' mullarkey. Isn't it time to admit you were wrong and simply let it go?

another question

bbam wrote: »

If you think organisations operate without politics then your deluding yourself. Those who play the game are successful, those that don't, risk becoming cannon fodder when the going gets tough. I've seen it play out many times in different organisations, two multinationals and two indigenous. I would have thought more people realised it.

Play the game, oh please, do you hear yourself, its work for gods sake, there are many, many more important things in life than being so wrapped up in workplace politics as you so obviously are. I would much prefer to just be a nice person and having such disregard for a workers feelings with reference to losing a pet by calling it a lame excuse just proves how unkind you are. Have a happy life Mr. Manager.

tatli_lokma

I don't disagree with you about 'playing the game' - but there is more than one way to play the game. In my experience those who play the game the way you do are the first to fold, as they have no staff loyalty.

You seem to miss the point that there are things managers can do as 'favours' and then there are things that are statutory entitlements. If you can't distinguish between the two you shouldn't be a manager. Giving someone their statutory AL entitlement is not a favour and you should not make then feel like you are doing them a favour by 'allowing' them this time off.

I have a fair idea of the type of industry in which you work, going by the types of nonsense you have come out with. I have experience in working in these types of industries myself. It usually is caused by people getting to be 'team leaders' or 'managers' based upon sales figures or other money driven successes without them having any real aptitude for people management and they rarely get any real training. If you have proper training as a manager you know that some of the things you have suggested are simply illegal.

Bad HR and people management folds a company quicker than any other factor - if you can't manage and motivate people with out calling in favours or intimidating them, then you have a poor business model to start with and that is why the companies fold or end up in EAT up to their necks in it.

bbam

Where was I wrong?
I think the GF could have dealt with the situation much more to her advantage.

I think that a dead pet is a poor reason for a day off or not helping out work.

I could let on that all people management is by the book, in line with company policy and fair at all times, when the truth is its not. Managers and senior manager can like and dislike employees, your better give reasons to be liked than disliked.

I said the manager was wrong in his decision and approach.

bbam

Where was I wrong?
I think the GF could have dealt with the situation much more to her advantage.

I think that a dead pet is a poor reason for a day off or not helping out work.

I could let on that all people management is by the book, in line with company policy and fair at all times, when the truth is its not. Managers and senior manager can like and dislike employees, your better give reasons to be liked than disliked.

I said the manager was wrong in his decision and approach.

The best advice to people is "know your manager". If your manager expects people to dig in and help out at short notice, don't be surprised if he's unhappy if you don't and shows preferential treatment to those who do.

westies4ever

bbam wrote: »

I think that a dead pet is a poor reason for a day off or not helping out work.

Exactly. You think. And the vast majority of people would be more sympathetic.

Whats the point of the poor girl going in blubbing all over the place and being of no use to anyone? Besides that she can take a day off for whatever the hell she likes.

Maybe its a communication thing but you are coming across as pompous, arrogant, unkind and manipulative.

ABajaninCork

westies4ever wrote: »

Maybe its a communication thing but you are coming across as pompous, arrogant, unkind and manipulative.

Not to mention a nasty streak and a well-developed (probably misplaced) sense of importance...

My Mum always told me 'Be nice to the people you meet going up. Because they'll be the same people you meet coming back'.

I only hope bbam isn't heading for a fall with that attitude.

Necro

bbam wrote: »

Where was I wrong?
I think the GF could have dealt with the situation much more to her advantage.

I think that a dead pet is a poor reason for a day off or not helping out work.

I could let on that all people management is by the book, in line with company policy and fair at all times, when the truth is its not. Managers and senior manager can like and dislike employees, your better give reasons to be liked than disliked.

I said the manager was wrong in his decision and approach.

The best advice to people is "know your manager". If your manager expects people to dig in and help out at short notice, don't be surprised if he's unhappy if you don't and shows preferential treatment to those who do.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. The day off was arranged for.... wait for it..... A trip to Belfast
Pop goes your argument right there.
Forget the fact that it was Annual leave too - that doesn't cut the mustard in your eyes.
A little brush up on your knowledge of the country's employment laws would help you out a long way....:rolleyes:

tatli_lokma

employment laws??? pahhh! who needs them when you need to run a business in the cut throat world of business. Employment law makes you cannon fodder apparently. An unneccessary waste of resources all that time spent on people management :rolleyes:

tatli_lokma

bbam wrote: »

Managers and senior manager can like and dislike employees, your better give reasons to be liked than disliked.

managers need to remember that they too need to be liked and disliked. cuts both ways. You get further with honey than vinegar. Demanding that a staff member who has a legitimately booked off day comes to work when they have experienced an upset (however trivial you may feel it is) is not going to encourage anyone to do you a favour. Ask me to do something and I will probably do it, demand I do something and act like I am being unreasonable for reacting to your demand, and well frankly I'll be telling you to take a flying jump.

And a surefire way to get disliked by your manager - get the company dragged into an EAT. Now that will make you unpopular.