Dublin Airport Charge Points. Why did they bother ?

I calculated that to get to the airport and back I would need 33 kw/hrs for around 113 miles and the Nissan Leaf has 21 usable.

So the current Leaf has a 3 kw a/c charger meaning around 5 hrs to charge to get me home or with the new leaf in the spring, 2.5 hrs.

Fast charger 20-25 mins which is far more acceptable.

With the cost of parking in the airport who would even sat 2.5 hrs ?

So why did they bother ? why no fast chargers ?

Publicity stunt ?

There is a fast charger at topaz new lands cross but the idea is charge while in the airport and not have to wait when I come out and find a charger.

visual

Battry cars are still a gimmick and the expenses of running higher current charging points both in infrastructure (cable ducting back to 3 phase supply ) and power being used is a cost that not easly passed on. even more expensive if it is being retro fitted compared to new building that has it incorporated in its design.

Fitting the lower current charging point still gets the green thumbs up for publicity at lower capital cost.

visual

visual wrote: »

Battry cars are still a gimmick and the expenses of running higher current charging points both in infrastructure (cable ducting back to 3 phase supply ) and power being used is a cost that not easly passed on. even more expensive if it is being retro fitted compared to new building that has it incorporated in its design.

Fitting the lower current charging point still gets the green thumbs up for publicity at lower capital cost.

I don't think they are a gimmick at all, if you can charge at your destination and have enough for your trip home I don't see the problem.

Same for work premises, they need to start installing them.

I'm sure Dublin Airport is full of 3 phase power, surely it would have been much better to install at least 3 fast chargers instead of 5 useless trickle chargers ?

I usually have to wait for someone to come in and I usually stop at the view point and watch the planes, so even if one of the garages installed one 5 mins away it would not matter much to me anyway because I won't park in the Airport with the cost of parking but a fast charger could have changed my mind.

When we reach a day where batteries give us 300 miles range, I mean when the cost comes down, the Tesla Model S has a 300 mile option 84kw/hr battery, but if cars have enough range, would that not make the public infrastructure a lot less useful ?

But definitely, the Airport chargers were a publicity stunt as they are not powerful enough to be useful. They could probably charge my electric bicycle battery quickly, but sadly that's about it.

Think about it of I need to put back 16.5 kw/hrs and I have a 3 kw or 6 kw capable charger do the maths.

If the esb were involved in this or they got another company to advise them then it was a very bad decision and it most certainly will not help people convert to electric.

And we don't even know if the chargers are 3 kw, 6 kw, or 20 kw capable ???

Please ESB if you are putting the charge points on your map then include the power output for each charger!

cgarrad

You can be assured that Dublin airport will execute a plan in the most inefficient means possible.

Slow chargers should no be permitted in any public facility.

cgarrad

cgarrad wrote: »

You can be assured that Dublin airport will execute a plan in the most inefficient means possible.

Slow chargers should no be permitted in any public facility.

Yes I agree, however they are more than suitable for work place chargers as even 2-4 hr charge would be more than enough to get most people home.

But in places like the Airport where you would be mad to park for more than an hour, they are pretty much useless.

visual

Just out of interest is there a cost to use topaz charger ?

KamiKazi

Lads electric cars (or EVs if you're of the KNOB/VAG persuasion) are a gimmick.

By the time the batteries are built they're more environmentally damaging than an IC car, plus an IC car won't need a new engine every couple of years.

Stick with IC until hydrogen fuel cars are fully developed, electric cars are nothing more than a fashion station just like iAnything.

ZENER

Why are you being so cynical about Dublin Airport ? Maybe you're paying far too much attention to Mr. O'Leary ?

The Terminal 2 multi-storey car park has 3 three phase rapid charging points on level 2 of the car park, these are not trickle chargers. DAA have adopted electric vehicles as part of their fleet thus providing rapid chargers at various points about the airport. So far these are not being charged for but that will obviously change shortly. There are plans (if not already executed) to provide charging points at the Terminal 1 car parks both short term and long term.

Ken

_Kaiser_

KamiKazi wrote: »

Lads electric cars (or EVs if you're of the KNOB/VAG persuasion) are a gimmick.

By the time the batteries are built they're more environmentally damaging than an IC car, plus an IC car won't need a new engine every couple of years.

Stick with IC until hydrogen fuel cars are fully developed, electric cars are nothing more than a fashion station just like iAnything.

I'd tend to agree, I can't see these taking off in any great numbers myself, considering the average age of the national fleet (8 years or thereabouts), the fact that people don't have money to pay the bills in a lot of cases never mind a new expensive car, and the unsuitability of these cars generally outside Dublin, plus there's the question of reliability over the medium-long term.

Unless they can be charged as fast as a standard petrol/diesel can be filled, until the range of these batteries increases and until these fast charge points are everywhere , they'll never become a mainstream option.

Plus you can be damned sure that if they did, the "low cost" benefit would be quickly eradicated by the electricity suppliers and the government - in the same way as those who went out and bought "environmentally friendly" cars in the last few years have now seen their motor tax bills hiked (although still not as much as those aforementioned people who can't afford to splash out on new cars - IC or otherwise!)

ARGINITE

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'd tend to agree, I can't see these taking off in any great numbers myself, considering the average age of the national fleet (8 years or thereabouts), the fact that people don't have money to pay the bills in a lot of cases never mind a new expensive car, and the unsuitability of these cars generally outside Dublin, plus there's the question of reliability over the medium-long term.

Unless they can be charged as fast as a standard petrol/diesel can be filled, until the range of these batteries increases and until these fast charge points are everywhere , they'll never become a mainstream option.

Plus you can be damned sure that if they did, the "low cost" benefit would be quickly eradicated by the electricity suppliers and the government - in the same way as those who went out and bought "environmentally friendly" cars in the last few years have now seen their motor tax bills hiked (although still not as much as those aforementioned people who can't afford to splash out on new cars - IC or otherwise!)

+1.

http://www.technologicvehicles.com/en/green-transportation-news/1835/le-mans-24h-greengt-h2-will-run-the-track-in

A road car couldn't be too far away.

September1

I think they are supposed to be just top-up charging. I use them every time I visit airport as in general it is useful to charge car when you are not using it. In scenario where you need to pick someone up there is fast charger close to airport on Topaz station, you can get there 90% charge or so and then get topped up into complete charge during short stay in the airport.

ZENER

ZENER wrote: »

Why are you being so cynical about Dublin Airport ? Maybe you're paying far too much attention to Mr. O'Leary ?

The Terminal 2 multi-storey car park has 3 three phase rapid charging points on level 2 of the car park, these are not trickle chargers. DAA have adopted electric vehicles as part of their fleet thus providing rapid chargers at various points about the airport. So far these are not being charged for but that will obviously change shortly. There are plans (if not already executed) to provide charging points at the Terminal 1 car parks both short term and long term.

Ken

Well at least your post is relevant to the thread topic, thanks !

3 phase a/c, while only good for Zoe is useless for the Nissan Leaf, currently the most E.V's on the road. Zoe has being suffering delay after delay and there is no sign what so ever of it's release despite being months over due.

Even 2 fast DC chargers would have been very useful, I believe they even have fast a/c charging too.

DO you know the actual power of the Airport chargers ?

Maybe you work there as I feel you took personally my comments ?

visual

visual wrote: »

Just out of interest is there a cost to use topaz charger ?

Topaz are not supposed to charge until the billing system is in place. But don't quote me on that.

September1

September1 wrote: »

I think they are supposed to be just top-up charging. I use them every time I visit airport as in general it is useful to charge car when you are not using it. In scenario where you need to pick someone up there is fast charger close to airport on Topaz station, you can get there 90% charge or so and then get topped up into complete charge during short stay in the airport.

You mean the Charger at Airside ? I see that on the map as being the closest. That's only available 9-5 Mon -Fri and 9-1pm Sat ? That's hardly ideal ? You would think Nissan dealers would make them available 24 hours I bet Nissan wouldn't have given them the chargers if the knew they would be behind locked gates and from what I've heard you have to go in and wait for them to open a gate to get access to it around the back, certainly the one on Belgard is not easy access from what I've seen. Imaging having to pull up to a garage and asking them to open a gate and having to drive to the rear to fill up every time ?

You life a lot closer to the Airport than I do, you would have plenty of range to get there and back without having to charge, and yes topping up as often as possible below 100% is really much better for the battery. But it doesn't help the people who absolutely need to charge, the idea would be to go to the airport, plug in and in my case I would probably need 15 mins on the charger to give me the 16 kw/hrs I need, but it is not ideal to have to come out and look for a charger because all I'd get in the Airport after even 1 hours is 3, kw/ hrs. Yes you could say that's 5-7 mins less required at a fast charger. but it's not ideal.

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'd tend to agree, I can't see these taking off in any great numbers myself, considering the average age of the national fleet (8 years or thereabouts), the fact that people don't have money to pay the bills in a lot of cases never mind a new expensive car, and the unsuitability of these cars generally outside Dublin, plus there's the question of reliability over the medium-long term.

Unless they can be charged as fast as a standard petrol/diesel can be filled, until the range of these batteries increases and until these fast charge points are everywhere , they'll never become a mainstream option.

Plus you can be damned sure that if they did, the "low cost" benefit would be quickly eradicated by the electricity suppliers and the government - in the same way as those who went out and bought "environmentally friendly" cars in the last few years have now seen their motor tax bills hiked (although still not as much as those aforementioned people who can't afford to splash out on new cars - IC or otherwise!)

Electricity prices are regulated, and if the cost goes up a lot I'll just install solar or wind to offset the cost + excess to the grid.

The E.U seemingly want a lot more fast chargers and fast charges twice as fast as the ones currently installed capable of 100,000 watts so a leaf would get a 0-80% in 15 mins, or 5-10 depending on your charge level before you charge. That's not bad. But they need a battery first capable.

Remember electric car range is NOT limited by the battery only the cost of the battery and that's coming down a lot faster than you think. And faster charging batteries are not far away at all. Think Tesla model S.

Nissan have been testing 10 min charging for some time now.

KamiKazi

KamiKazi wrote: »

Lads electric cars (or EVs if you're of the KNOB/VAG persuasion) are a gimmick.

By the time the batteries are built they're more environmentally damaging than an IC car, plus an IC car won't need a new engine every couple of years.

Stick with IC until hydrogen fuel cars are fully developed, electric cars are nothing more than a fashion station just like iAnything.

You mean a Battery electric car ? you know hydrogen cars are electric ?

Research the amount of energy needed to extract hydrogen, then see what's more environmentally damaging. Battery cars are at least no more polluting in their production than ICE cars. And in use have no toxic emissions. Batteries can be recycled and used for renewable energy storage.

ARGINITE

ARGINITE wrote: »

+1.

http://www.technologicvehicles.com/en/green-transportation-news/1835/le-mans-24h-greengt-h2-will-run-the-track-in

A road car couldn't be too far away.

Hydrogen production is seriously energy intensive and makes no economic sense, that energy currently, can be put much more efficiently into batteries.

Big companies will also charge a lot more for it and Governments tax the hell out of it, I'd rather install solar panels than give it away to big companies.

thecomedian

Car companies are going down the fuel cell road though. Electric cars have been around for a while now and there still not a serious option.

thecomedian

thecomedian wrote: »

Car companies are going down the fuel cell road though. Electric cars have been around for a while now and there still not a serious option.

Well most of them are or were produced to meet the strict emissions standards in California.

The Mercedes F cell is supposed to be out in 2014 or 15.

I can't see how it's a good idea to use electricity to turn into hydrogen to turn it back to electricity again ? that is incredibly inefficient. Hydrogen will be a dream for many years to come.

Again hydrogen takes huge amounts of energy.

Maybe hydrogen has uses for HGV, rail, ships etc, but LPG can run trucks buses etc and be far cleaner than diesel. But the energy to make hydrogen needs to come from Nuclear or renewable, but again that would be a lot more energy than needed to charge batteries.

ElectricDave

cgarrad wrote: »

You can be assured that Dublin airport will execute a plan in the most inefficient means possible.

Slow chargers should no be permitted in any public facility.

At the moment most EVs on Irish roads are only capable of taking a 16Amp charge (0-100% charge in about 6 hours) and a DC fast charge (0-100% about 25mins). The problem here is the price of the DC fast chargers ($10,000 - $100,000) and the fact that most EVs can't take a 32 Amp AC charge (0-100% in 3 hours).

So what you are saying is that all public facilities should have DC fast charging? This is completely unfeasible!

The ESB will continue to roll out a mixture of DC and AC chargers. In the near future most EVs will be able to take a 32Amp charge so 32Amp chargers will become more common

ElectricDave

ElectricDave wrote: »

At the moment most EVs on Irish roads are only capable of taking a 16Amp charge (0-100% charge in about 6 hours) and a DC fast charge (0-100% about 25mins). The problem here is the price of the DC fast chargers ($10,000 - $100,000) and the fact that most EVs can't take a 32 Amp AC charge (0-100% in 3 hours).

So what you are saying is that all public facilities should have DC fast charging? This is completely unfeasible!

The ESB will continue to roll out a mixture of DC and AC chargers. In the near future most EVs will be able to take a 32Amp charge so 32Amp chargers will become more common

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say anything of the kind that all public facilities as you say should have fast DC charging.

Most of the ESB public chargers are 20 kw and capable of charging the likes of the Zoe in 1 hour from completely empty, but will most likely be under an hour as you will never arrive anywhere completely empty.

The Leaf, Imev etc can't charge that fast and have to use their onboard charger for AC charging away from a non fast DC charger but they are more than fine for commuters who travel to the Luas stops for a full charge over the working day, in these situations the slow chargers are fine.

But the Airport should have fast charging as 16 amp charger would not be enough to get me back home in any meaningful amount of time unless I was staying for a weekend or more, so the slow chargers are fine for these occasions but for drop off or pick up or waiting for arrivals they are completely and utterly useless.

If I pick someone up at the airport I want to be able to fast charge at the airport rather than have to leave the airport and look for a fast charger then spend 20-30 mins there charging after I've picked someone up, that's not practical.

I know there are people who say it's better to plug in anywhere and spend less time on the fast charger, that may be true if you live close enough, maybe for the newer leaf's 6.6 kw on board charger you might get a more meaningful charge, but I bet the airport chargers are not even capable of anything more than 3.5 kw.

The Fast DC chargers are expensive, but they are a lot cheaper than they were a few years ago and they are nothing near 100,000 Euro's these days. Without the fast chargers there is no point, we'll be waiting a fair bit for greater than a real 100 miles range at 120 kph, though with much cheaper and much faster charging batteries 5-10 mins we wouldn't need big heavy expensive batteries.

Once we cross that 30 kwh battery capacity which is 1.5 times that of the Leaf we will have a real 110-120 miles range which is more than good enough if you can fast charge to at least 80% of that in 5-10 mins.

HandsomeDan

Deleted User wrote: »

Hydrogen production is seriously energy intensive and makes no economic sense, that energy currently, can be put much more efficiently into batteries.

Big companies will also charge a lot more for it and Governments tax the hell out of it, I'd rather install solar panels than give it away to big companies.

ML you're pissin' into the wind. Average poster's entire knowledge of E.V.s here is based on something they heard James May say seven years ago on a Dave Top Gear re-run.

HandsomeDan

thecomedian wrote: »

Car companies are going down the fuel cell road though. Electric cars have been around for a while now and there still not a serious option.

Nope. Some of them looked at fuel cell and then most dropped it.

ElectricDave

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, you said slow chargers should not be permitted in any public facility. Currently all EV chargers (excluding DC) are only 16Amp (give or take) - you consider these as slow chargers so what I understood you to have said was that public facilities should have DC charging or no charging at all.

I agree that a 16 Amp charge isn't ideal for drop off and collecting at the airport, a short visit doesn't allow significant time to charge. However, the DAA has a fleet of electric vehicles and needs to charge them. By letting the public also use the chargers is a good move by the DAA in my opinion.

The ZOE can probably get a 100% charge from a 20kw charge but the charger would have to be 3 phase and currently the majority of commercially available EVs can't support that current.

In an ideal world there would only be DC charging but in reality you are not going to be paying any less than 10k for one compared to $500-$1000 for a 16 or 32 Amp charger.

What I see happening (in Dublin Airport) would be the upgrading/introduction of new 32 A chargers but this will not happen until commercial models are able to take it. I think it will be a few more years at least until a BEV (with larger battery than leaf) can charge to 80% in 5 minutes but you never know...

thecomedian

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Nope. Some of them looked at fuel cell and then most dropped it.

Really most have dropped it?

A simple google says otherwise

HandsomeDan

thecomedian wrote: »

Really most have dropped it?

A simple google says otherwise

OK, but up to recently it was very much being side stepped.

It seems that planned regs covering EV carbon footprints are making FC cars look feasible again...

HandsomeDan

HandsomeDan wrote: »

ML you're pissin' into the wind. Average poster's entire knowledge of E.V.s here is based on something they heard James May say seven years ago on a Dave Top Gear re-run.

Hydrogen could work if the world invested in Thorium (L.F.T.R). I'm sure once people wake up to the fact renewable energy just can not and never will offer the Trillions of Terawatts that would be needed to replace oil and gas, coal etc and when their electricity bills are more than triple what they are now to pay for all the renewable energy, just maybe then they will open up to a much much safer form of Nuclear energy.

Why people only think of wind turbines and solar for electricity is beyond me as electricity alone is only a tiny fraction of our fossil fuel usage.

We could have electricity as cheap as the French but the Irish Government will litter our landscape with ever increasing gigantic turbines because it makes them look good to be seen to be Green and the wind energy companies reap up the subsidies that you and I have to pay while they steal our wind and charge us a fortune for it.

Our kwh price is 18 cent in Germany it's around 25 and that's to pay for the huge subsidies people get fro putting solar on their houses and for feed in tariffs.

Thorium MSR's could be the answer until Fusion works in the next 50-100 years or so until then the earth has thousands of years of energy begging to be used and really cheap energy too, Norway alone has over 10,000 years supply of Thorium. Plenty of energy to make Hydrogen.

But by then of course batteries will be much much better and it won't be that long before we see lithium air batteries maybe 5-7 years.

I appreciate wind energy creates jobs but in the end the Irish people have very little to benefit as most are built off this island and installed and commissioned by non Irish contractors, Irish contractors may do the concrete works, but still a lot of money and jobs go elsewhere.

HandsomeDan

HandsomeDan wrote: »

OK, but up to recently it was very much being side stepped.

It seems that planned regs covering EV carbon footprints are making FC cars look feasible again...

Imagine the carbon footprint in making hydrogen :eek:

As with fossil fuels we would once again be at the mercy of greedy powerful energy companies (all foreign) to import hydrogen and the Government will tax it just like petrol and diesel. At least I've the option of installing solar or wind.

Fuel cells just like batteries have x amount of life, I think people seriously do not understand this and fuel cells cost a (lot) more than batteries, which you still need for hydrogen vehicles by the way !

HandsomeDan

Deleted User wrote: »

Hydrogen could work if the world invested in Thorium (L.F.T.R). I'm sure once people wake up to the fact renewable energy just can not and never will offer the Trillions of Terawatts that would be needed to replace oil and gas, coal etc and when their electricity bills are more than triple what they are now to pay for all the renewable energy, just maybe then they will open up to a much much safer form of Nuclear energy.

Why people only think of wind turbines and solar for electricity is beyond me as electricity alone is only a tiny fraction of our fossil fuel usage.

We could have electricity as cheap as the French but the Irish Government will litter our landscape with ever increasing gigantic turbines because it makes them look good to be seen to be Green and the wind energy companies reap up the subsidies that you and I have to pay while they steal our wind and charge us a fortune for it.

Our kwh price is 18 cent in Germany it's around 25 and that's to pay for the huge subsidies people get fro putting solar on their houses and for feed in tariffs.

Thorium MSR's could be the answer until Fusion works in the next 50-100 years or so until then the earth has thousands of years of energy begging to be used and really cheap energy too, Norway alone has over 10,000 years supply of Thorium. Plenty of energy to make Hydrogen.

But by then of course batteries will be much much better and it won't be that long before we see lithium air batteries maybe 5-7 years.

I appreciate wind energy creates jobs but in the end the Irish people have very little to benefit as most are built off this island and installed and commissioned by non Irish contractors, Irish contractors may do the concrete works, but still a lot of money and jobs go elsewhere.

No offence ML but you've gone all Jim Corr on me!

ElectricDave

ElectricDave wrote: »

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, you said slow chargers should not be permitted in any public facility. Currently all EV chargers (excluding DC) are only 16Amp (give or take) - you consider these as slow chargers so what I understood you to have said was that public facilities should have DC charging or no charging at all.

I never said slow chargers should not be permitted in public, there you go again putting words in my mouth ! :rolleyes:

I said slow chargers are good for people going away for the day or weekend etc and fast chargers should be installed for people like me whom a full charge will not get me to the Airport and back.

I usually end up waiting 30 mins or so anyway for someone to arrive so waiting while charging wouldn't be a bother for me, but to wait and pick someone up then look for a fast charger is a major PITA!

ElectricDave wrote: »

I agree that a 16 Amp charge isn't ideal for drop off and collecting at the airport, a short visit doesn't allow significant time to charge. However, the DAA has a fleet of electric vehicles and needs to charge them. By letting the public also use the chargers is a good move by the DAA in my opinion.

More of a publicity stunt to be honest than a practical solution, sure someone that lives close by can hook up while charging, but they wouldn't need to most likely.

ElectricDave wrote: »

The ZOE can probably get a 100% charge from a 20kw charge but the charger would have to be 3 phase and currently the majority of commercially available EVs can't support that current.

The Zoe's charger is quiet remarkable in the fact it used the motor coils as inductors, remarkable. And it is 3 phase 44kw capable but the ESB have no fast AC chargers yet, I think it's rumoured that the new ones will have both AC and DC fast charge, though nothing confirmed.

ElectricDave wrote: »

In an ideal world there would only be DC charging but in reality you are not going to be paying any less than 10k for one compared to $500-$1000 for a 16 or 32 Amp charger.

IF you don't invest in a proper infrastructure then electric cars will never take off as cost will make sure longer range is still a few years away, but even so batteries of greater capacity will need to be charged also and the bigger the battery the longer on the fast charger, Tesla's super chargers are over twice as powerful as the fast DC chargers in Ireland and most if not all the world.

Tesla's super chargers can replace a real 150 miles range in around 20 mins.

The 20kw chargers the ESB install are a fraction of the cost of the fast DC and 20 kw is fast enough for most people but you will always need faster charging for long trips. Currently only the Zoe can use their full potential.

ElectricDave wrote: »

What I see happening (in Dublin Airport) would be the upgrading/introduction of new 32 A chargers but this will not happen until commercial models are able to take it. I think it will be a few more years at least until a BEV (with larger battery than leaf) can charge to 80% in 5 minutes but you never know...

The Facelift Leaf already has 32 amp charging on single phase and while it will charge a Leaf in 4 hours 0-100 % it's still too slow to get me home, I would need at least 2 hrs to replace 12 kwh or so needed to get home compared to maybe 20 mins on a fast charger.

There are a lot more fast DC chargers to come on line in the next 2 years thanks to E.U funding.

The problem is the ESB face resistance from garage owners who refuse to have any charger on their property. One of the reasons you won't see one on the Naas road between Newlands Cross and Naas unless they install one themselves, they would probably rip people off for the electricity too.

The Naas fast DC charger is to go into Naas town meaning a trip off the N7 into Naas Town.

The Carlow fast charger is going in Carlow Town and not in Castledermot despite Castledermot being much closer to the M9 than Carlow town. Which could also serve people heading from Dublin to Rosslare via Tullow.

Really I wonder why they choose the locations they do.

HandsomeDan

HandsomeDan wrote: »

No offence ML but you've gone all Jim Corr on me!

Sorry I don't get that ?