A case for extending the TMO

P_1

An interesting thought came to me watching the England Scotland match.

The try scoring team can ask the ref to go to TMO if they think a try has been scored.

Should the conceding team also be allowed to ask the ref to go to TMO if they think a try hasn't been scored?

Take England's 2nd try as an example, the replay showed it was a forward pass before it was scored, should Scotland have been allowed to ask the ref to go to TMO to in effect have that try disqualified?

This may have been influenced by my losing Scotland handicap bet

awec

The referee decides when to go to the TMO, I don't think players should be allowed to question decisions. If the referee awards a try it's a try.

P_1

awec wrote: »

The referee decides when to go to the TMO, I don't think players should be allowed to question decisions. If the referee awards a try it's a try.

Players can and have asked the ref to go to TMO in the past, isn't that the purpose of having the TMO, to give the ref extra backup in case their original decision wasn't conclusive?

.ak

P_1 wrote: »

Players can and have asked the ref to go to TMO in the past, isn't that the purpose of having the TMO, to give the ref extra backup in case their original decision wasn't conclusive?

Players often ask for the TMO, but it's just a case of them trying their luck. There's no rule where if a player thinks it should go upstairs it does. It's just like when players ask for yellow cards. Remember when all the Irish players were asking for a TMO after they fecked up the line out in Cardiff two seasons ago? The ref went mad to the point of BOD had to remind him he was the skipper.

P_1

.ak wrote: »

Players often ask for the TMO, but it's just a case of them trying their luck. There's no rule where if a player thinks it should go upstairs it does. It's just like when players ask for yellow cards. Remember when all the Irish players were asking for a TMO after they fecked up the line out in Cardiff two seasons ago? The ref went mad to the point of BOD had to remind him he was the skipper.

Fair enough, can the conceding team ask the ref the same question though I'm wondering.

Something like the NFL's 'coaches challenge' rule could well fit in here is what I'm thinking aloud.

.ak

P_1 wrote: »

Fair enough, can the conceding team ask the ref the same question though I'm wondering.

Something like the NFL's 'coaches challenge' rule could well fit in here is what I'm thinking aloud.

They can and do. It's 100% down to the ref if they go upstairs though.

.ak

And just on your point about mirroring the NFL challenge rule. I think a big no there, you'd get teams purposefully using it just to break up the momentum of the game if a team is getting on them in a big way.

P_1

.ak wrote: »

They can and do. It's 100% down to the ref if they go upstairs though.

Didn't realise that initially but then I remember teams asking the ref to check penalties that went over the post.

I probably phrased the OP wrong but do ye reckon having something like the NFL coaches challenge or the point challenge in tennis would be good or bad for the game?

So each team has a set number of 'challenges' they can use in the match for a particularly 50/50 decision. The TMO then has a look at it with the benefit of slo mo replays and all that and then tells the ref his interpretation of it?

P_1

.ak wrote: »

And just on your point about mirroring the NFL challenge rule. I think a big no there, you'd get teams purposefully using it just to break up the momentum of the game if a team is getting on them in a big way.

That's very cynical of you now, I mean who would dare do that

.ak

I would, all day long. :pac:

'Sir, can we challenge that?'

'But it was a knock on?'

'Ah yeh, but just t'be sure.'

irishbucsfan

The ref should always be the one who decides.

P_1

.ak wrote: »

I would, all day long. :pac:

'Sir, can we challenge that?'

'But it was a knock on?'

'Ah yeh, but just t'be sure.'

Ah I getcha, very very cynical still

I suppose you could combat that by only giving the teams a set number of challenges though and only letting the captain make them.

I think in the NFL you only get 3 and if you lose the challenge you lose a timeout.

Is there a way to translate that to rugby I wonder, I don't think it would undermine the ref, rather it would save them from catching flack.

P_1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The ref should always be the one who decides.

Just on that point, wasn't that why they brought in the TMO in the first place?

The ref can be right 99.9999999...% of the time but there is always the potential for a controversial missed/wrong decision that leads to the ref catching a ton of flak?

In a way I'm suggesting formalising the whole process, or do you disagree with the whole concept of having a TMO?

Digifriendly

Didn't think Twelvetrees' try was forward pass - looked more lateral to me.

P_1

Digifriendly wrote: »

Didn't think Twelvetrees' try was forward pass - looked more lateral to me.

The ball was passed from behind the 5m line, 12trees caught it ahead of the 5m line, I'll try find a link but it seemed fairly open and shut to me.

djk1000

i don't think the TMO is concerned with anything other than the actual scoring of the try. A forward pass before the try is for the ref to spot. The TMO doesn't and shouldn't look at infringements.

28064212

P_1 wrote: »

The ball was passed from behind the 5m line, 12trees caught it ahead of the 5m line, I'll try find a link but it seemed fairly open and shut to me.

Not necessarily. I haven't seen the replay, but a pass must go backwards relative to the player, not the ground. Explanatory video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg (from around 45 seconds in)

locum-motion

P_1 wrote: »

The ball was passed from behind the 5m line, 12trees caught it ahead of the 5m line, I'll try find a link but it seemed fairly open and shut to me.

You fundamentally misunderstand what constitutes a forward pass.
Watch this video, it explains it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

Edit: Apologies, I posted this before I realised that the guy with the numerical name posted the same video.

P_1

Wow never actually realised that it was based on the position of the two players, I always thought the rule was relative to the ground.

Slight egg on my face so but you learn something new every day

irishbucsfan

I think if it was relative to the ground even BODs pass might have been forward!

im invisible

djk1000 wrote: »

i don't think the TMO is concerned with anything other than the actual scoring of the try. A forward pass before the try is for the ref to spot. The TMO doesn't and shouldn't look at infringements.

i thought he does, but it depends on what the ref asks him, cant remember the wording of the first question off hand, but the second 'is there any reason i should not award the try?' i thought included play up to the grounding of the ball, (though i'm not sure how far back they look..)

irishbucsfan

im invisible wrote: »

i thought he does, but it depends on what the ref asks him, cant remember the wording of the first question off hand, but the second 'is there any reason i should not award the try?' i thought included play up to the grounding of the ball, (though i'm not sure how far back they look..)

No, the tmo isn't allowed advise on that regardless of the question.

They can in the Aviva Premiership but I think that's the only competition currently.

pickarooney

point

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, the tmo isn't allowed advise on that regardless of the question.

the Aviva Premiership but I think that's the only competition currently.

The top 14 gives the TMO jurisdiction over the five metre line I think. It may well be brought in at international level at some point

Lyaiera

P_1 wrote: »

The ref can be right 99.9999999...% of the time but there is always the potential for a controversial missed/wrong decision that leads to the ref catching a ton of flak?

/old rugby head
The ref is correct 100% of the time and cannot be wrong, even when he is.
/old rugby head

It's to do with the ref being an arbiter/judge of the laws on the pitch rather than an official applying rules.

Of course they can get slated in their reviews, and be stripped of their position but for the game whatever the ref says goes.

locum-motion

Lyaiera wrote: »

/old rugby head
The ref is correct 100% of the time and cannot be wrong, even when he is.
/old rugby head

It's to do with the ref being an arbiter/judge of the laws on the pitch rather than an official applying rules...

True. Law 6.A.4(a)

The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match. The referee must apply fairly all the Laws of the Game in every match.

danthefan

Don't like it, the ref is the boss, end of story.