First shotgun purchase

susign

Hello all experienced hunters,
I am a first timer looking for a good reliable shotgun mostly for shooting crows, pigeons and rabbits, all farm vermon really. I would like to go for semi auto as I want to load 3 caterages as instead of douuble barrel. I have been looking at a new ATA semi auto for €750, Bakia for €650 or a second hand Bennelli for €380. Are any of the above good & reliable or should I steer clear?All suggestions will be much appreciated, thanks lads.

bravestar

susign wrote: »

Hello all experienced hunters,
I am a first timer looking for a good reliable shotgun mostly for shooting crows, pigeons and rabbits, all farm vermon really. I would like to go for semi auto as I want to load 3 caterages as instead of douuble barrel. I have been looking at a new ATA semi auto for €750, Bakia for €650 or a second hand Bennelli for €380. Are any of the above good & reliable or should I steer clear?All suggestions will be much appreciated, thanks lads.

Don't know about a semi but a pump is all I use, you could pick up a used remington 870 or mossberg maverick or 500 for easy money. My 870 had never let me down, never failed to feed, never failed to eject, can be plugged to only take 3 and has interchangeable chokes. Think I paid 250 for mine and its been through serious abuse, keeps coming back for more though!

susign

Sounds good, what price range would any of the above fall into when buying new?

bravestar

susign wrote: »

Sounds good, what price range would any of the above fall into when buying new?

Duffys are selling 870's new for 500

http://www.shoot.ie/catalogsearch/result/?q=870&x=0&y=0

But if possible, go down the second hand route. They are absolute tanks of guns, so unless they have been ridiculously abused, you will be getting a bargain. Just have a feel of an 870 first as some find it too heavy and a mossberg might feel better to you.

juice1304

I have an 870 too beast of a gun i love mine would'nt part with it for the world:)
there is lots of bits and bobs to make it the way you like too.

Cass

Few models, makes, and styles to look at.

Beretta AL 391 - Semi Auto - €850
Bettinsoli Zephyr - Semi Auto (new) - €850
Beretta - Semi Auto - €550
Beretta ES100 - Semi Auto - €750
Yildiz - semi Auto - €650
Remington 870 - Pump action - €650
Mossberg - Pump Action - €350

This is only from one shop. Look around. There are plenty out there, and with the end of the season coming up more so as people start to chop and change.

susign

bravestar wrote: »

Duffys are selling 870's new for 500

http://www.shoot.ie/catalogsearch/result/?q=870&x=0&y=0

But if possible, go down the second hand route. They are absolute tanks of guns, so unless they have been ridiculously abused, you will be getting a bargain. Just have a feel of an 870 first as some find it too heavy and a mossberg might feel better to you.

This gun looks the business, I already have a soft spot for it already so I definitely will be looking at this. Reliability and resale would be the key points I am looking out for at the moment until I get more experienced as I can always upgrade down the road as I discover what suits me best. By reading the feed back from you and juice1304 it does score high on those 2 points .Thanks for the info.

susign

Cass wrote: »

Few models, makes, and styles to look at.

Beretta AL 391 - Semi Auto - €850
Bettinsoli Zephyr - Semi Auto (new) - €850
Beretta - Semi Auto - €550
Beretta ES100 - Semi Auto - €750
Yildiz - semi Auto - €650
Remington 870 - Pump action - €650
Mossberg - Pump Action - €350

This is only from one shop. Look around. There are plenty out there, and with the end of the season coming up more so as people start to chop and change.

Thanks cass, lots of helpful info here. May I ask, based on your own personal choice, which of the above would you rate top out of the above? I know everyones choice varies with style and the feel of a gun but to be honest I found it difficul to decide when looking at the ATA and BAKIA yesterday. I guess they are not great as noone has recommended them yet but an amature like me might as well be looking into a field of tissels as looking at guns until I have my research done.

bravestar

Jus make sure you shoulder any gun your considering before you spend the money. A final good point on the 870, with all the accessories you can get for it, you can change the fit and feel of the gun entirely and for little money.

Cass

susign wrote: »

............... which of the above would you rate top out of the above? ..

Beretta all the way. Little more expensive, and most likely second hand, but they are second to none for reliability, qualit, feel, fit, etc.

However it is all down to fit. If Beretta shotguns don't suit/fit you the there is little point looking at them. For example i don't use Browning. Never have.The fit just does not suit me. I always end up looking down the side of the gun rather than down the rib.

The best thing you can do is go to the various shops with an idea of what you want in mind. Try out a few guns, and if possible go somewhere that has an experienced shotgun shooter there that can help you in finding the right gun for you. Either that or bring someone along with you.

The ones above are just an example of what can be got on your budget both new, and second hand.

susign

Cass wrote: »

.............However it is all down to fit. If Beretta shotguns don't suit/fit you the there is little point looking at them.....

all of you guy's comments seem to agree, it seems that it's like buying a hurl or golf clubs. Alot of it has to do with our own size and comforts too.

Cass

Fit is the first, and most important factor of buying a shotgun.

Years ago i had gathered enough money for a DT10. An expensive gun, but bot the most expensive Beretta make. When i picked up the gun the fit was just not right. It was okay, but okay is not god enough. It should be an extension of your arm/body.

I went for the 682 Gold E instead because the fit was excellent.

My point is not matter how good the deal or how good the gun if the fit is wrong you will struggle, and end up with bad habits.

A simple tip i use when trying out, if no one is with me. I close my eyes, and shoulder the gun. Make sure the feel is comfortable, and tight. Then open my eyes, and see if i'm staring down the rib of the gun, or to the side, etc. If i have to keep adjusting my hold to get the best sight picture then it's not for me.


However an experienced shooter will be able to look at this for you, see things you may not know are important, and guide you to what is better suited (shorter stock, longer stock, etc, etc.) So for that reason it is best to deal with someone that is more interested in what is best for you than what puts more money in their pocket.

Dalken

Great time to be buying a second hand gun for value if you have the cash, definitley there are bargains to be had. As the post above take the time and get the one that fits but if possible pick up a quality brand like Beretta, Browning or my preference a Benelli.
Fit and reliability are foremost considerations when buying a gun, nothing worse than a gun that you cant shoot well with except maybe a gun that lets you down when your on a line or in the field...Ive had the displeasure of owning both.

susign

I was speaking with a relation of mine yesterday who claims the Browning or Beretta are two guns which have never let him down. He also mentioned the Russian, German or Italian brands are generally in the upper end of the scale for quality. I was looking at a Bakia (made in Russia) in Red Mills gunshop, Kilkenny last Friday but I don't know anyone who knows anythin about them. It looks and feels like a lovely gun but I would have to go and check out the feel of it again after chattin with you guys

Cass

susign wrote: »

I was looking at a Bakia (made in Russia) in Red Mills gunshop, Kilkenny last Friday but I don't know anyone who knows anythin about them.

Baikal are among the cheapest guns available here (new should be no more than 500 - 600 Euro). They are a basic shotgun, but work fine. The finish is nowhere near the same as the middle to upper level of shotguns such as Beretta, Browning, Benelli, Bettinsoli, Miroku, etc.

They would be in the same category as Kral, Yildiz, etc. Again this should not be taken as "they're crap" simply because they are cheap. There are lads using them successfully for years. As a first time shotgun they are good. The lower price works in your favour in case you find you do not like shotgun shooting. At least you do't have a lot laid out in a gun.

Dalken

Never heard of Bakia. Baikal are a well known Russian made gun, they are a little more crude than a lot of guns but they are known to be hardy and reliable, still if it was my money I'd try for a used Beretta or Browning.

susign

Dalken wrote: »

Never heard of Bakia. Baikal are a well known Russian made gun, they are a little more crude than a lot of guns but they are known to be hardy and reliable, still if it was my money I'd try for a used Beretta or Browning.

I am almost certain it is a bakia as that is what the sales guy wrote on the back of his business card although now that I check on google I see nothing coming up. He claims he never sold any of them yet. He bought two in after reading an artice about them which gave very high reviews. Now I think I have my mind made up to steeer clear of that one

cw67irl

If you can get a good second hand beretta grab it with both hands you wont be disappointed

Chopperdog 2

O. P. You stated a Benelli for €380?
That really has to be worth a look.
Hard to beat a Benelli, one of the higher quality semi autos available.

susign

Chopperdog 2 wrote: »

O. P. You stated a Benelli for €380?
That really has to be worth a look.
Hard to beat a Benelli, one of the higher quality semi autos available.

Yes the Bennelli is second hand and he has it written down here on his business card for €380. Looked to be in good condition but I wasn't paying particular attention to it as I didn't know they were one of the better makes at the time.

Cass

Benelli are up there with Beretta. They can go for €1,500 upwards.

If it's in good working condition, and well minded go for it. Great gun at a great price. Again though check for fit.

Brazzill

I have a Harrington and Richardson semi-auto and hasn't jammed once since i bought it. light but not too light. i paid 600 for my one.

susign

Brazzill wrote: »

I have a Harrington and Richardson semi-auto and hasn't jammed once since i bought it. light but not too light. i paid 600 for my one.

That sounds like value for money, I may add that to my list to check out. Thanks for that

meathstevie

The Baikal semi's seem to be getting great reviews if you go mooching around a bit and it shouldn't be much of a surprise because their other stuff is although not the most elegant out there very relaible and long lasting.

I would definitely rate them higher than any of the other stuff in the same price bracket.

Larry60

My first shotgun 30 years ago was a single barrel external hammer gun and as limiting as this is it teaches you not to rely on firepower to hit your target. I believe that a breakaction gun is, at least from a beginers point of view, a safer gun than a semi. as it is more straight forward to learn to shoot with.
I have a Winchester mod 120 pump action which I have been using for the last 25 years and have never had any problems at all with it.

iverjohnston

My first gun was a secondhand mossberg "Maverick, by New Haven" which seems to have been a model they built for some mail order chain or other. Butter smooth, but came with a Collet choke device, just horrible, point of impact could move by 3 foot at 30 yards. It was silver soldered on, so I heated it off, and ended up with a cylinder barrel. Bought a Mossberg 500 with screw in chokes, and like it a a lot, its not aqs smooth as the old one yet. Probably need another few thousand rounds to get it there!
So there you are, a totally biased opinion!

maxusman

I had a Baikal once.It was damn near indestructible.Nothing fancy but it did what it said on the tin. I bought it new from the late Eamonn Halloran. they are basic but very sound.dont be afraid to try,but i would not recommend their semi,s. I have a Browning Maxus which is fantastic but the best fun is with my Mossberg 500 pump. I shoot everything with it and its great crack. As mentioned above GUN FIT is by far the most important thing when buying. Happy Hunting.

susign

maxusman wrote: »

I had a Baikal once.It was damn near indestructible.Nothing fancy but it did what it said on the tin. I bought it new from the late Eamonn Halloran. they are basic but very sound.dont be afraid to try,but i would not recommend their semi,s. I have a Browning Maxus which is fantastic but the best fun is with my Mossberg 500 pump. I shoot everything with it and its great crack. As mentioned above GUN FIT is by far the most important thing when buying. Happy Hunting.

I took all of you guys' advice on board and thanks for all of the sound advice. I was in ASF in carlow and compared the Remington 870 to the Baikal. Both guns are at €650 (just in my price range). I love the feel of both guns but the remington feels just a little better. It looks plane and chunky and the pump action does make a little noise but after learning that they have sold 10 million 870's by 2009 and the Police in several states in the US use them so they have to be a good gun. The Baikal does look a little better finished but I am waiting to see if I can get a better deal with another gun shop who are going to get a few Remingtons in

maxusman

I shoot a lot of clays with the mossberg and its no bother at all.in fact most people ask to try it since its real "Hollywood" looking ,black synthetic. One of my nephews thinks its " Cool Out". Good Hunting.

susign

maxusman wrote: »

I shoot a lot of clays with the mossberg and its no bother at all.in fact most people ask to try it since its real "Hollywood" looking ,black synthetic. One of my nephews thinks its " Cool Out". Good Hunting.

Yes, I am just looking at those mossbergs vs. remington 870's now and they are very similar at a glance. I have yet to hear a bad review about either of them. They do look the business

maxusman

I like the old saying " Pumps dont spit,they swallow" .A pump will fire whatever you put thru it within reason ie,if you put a 3 1/2 inch shell in a gun built for 3 inch or less you could be in trouble.

susign

maxusman wrote: »

I like the old saying " Pumps dont spit,they swallow" .A pump will fire whatever you put thru it within reason ie,if you put a 3 1/2 inch shell in a gun built for 3 inch or less you could be in trouble.

Are pumps less likely to Jam thab the semi autos?

bravestar

susign wrote: »

Are pumps less likely to Jam thab the semi autos?

Your choice of ammo could cause a semi not to cycle properly. A pump does not have that problem. Regardless though, don't put a super magnum sized cartridge into a gun designed for magnum cartridges. Remember good idea/ bad idea from animaniacs?

Re: remington/mossberg
The main difference are in weight due to receiver construction. The mossberg has a thumb operated safety whereas your trigger finger will operate the safety on a 870. It's all down to preference really. They are both solid guns and have a huge following.

If I were you I would look for a second hand one in the for sale section. These guns are built to last so you needn't be worried. They normally go for around the 300 mark second hand. My 870 was very well used when I got it, plus the abuse I have given it and it still functions flawlessly.

MrScootch

Could you rock up to a club and go target shooting with a shotgun?
I don't mean clays, I mean paper targets down the range, maybe with slugs or something?

juice1304

Not unless you have a restricted shotgun licence. And the range must have authorization for them to be shot.

Cass

MrScootch wrote: »

Could you rock up to a club and go target shooting with a shotgun?
I don't mean clays, I mean paper targets down the range, maybe with slugs or something?

No.

No range, that i know, accomodates any type of target shooting outside of clays with a shotgun, and not with slugs.

I don't believe it's even a sport or more to the point none that i would be aware of. Plus when you get into shotguns with a slug you are better of with a rifle.

Then there is the issue of the guns as restricted as described above.


So No.

juice1304

There are several different competitions for slug shooting just not here.

Cass

Exactly my point.

MrScootch

Shame. I figured 'target shooting' was a more plausible excuse than "Really big game Garda :D:D

Relax, just kidding!!!

Seriously just thought a shotgun sounded like a great low-budget all-rounder to start off on, with target shooting just for kicks, not for serious competition.
So would a range have to have specific authorisation for individual types of ammunition, or just 'anything restricted'? Just curious.

Cass

Two uses for shotguns;

1. Clays
2. Game

Anything else would need a rifle.

As for serious comp. you can dictate how serious it gets. just because there are comps does not mean you have to enter, and more to the point you would not start of against national champions. There are classes that you have to achieve a level of skill in before progressing onto the next.

As for ranges. Clay pigeon shooting is not classed as target shooting, but they do montior, and police the types of shooting on their ranges. They will not allow slugs or any targets other than clay pigeons. Rifles ranges have a list of what is and is not permissible to be shot. Also each range is certified for different calibers, and its this certification that determines the caliber/bullet size that can be used on it.

lastly it all depends on the type of shooting. Some ranges can shoot up to 50 caliber rifles. However as there are no competitions in Ireland for such calibers no one (or at least few people) has one. So no point buying a gun in a caliber that you do not get to use. So there is a strong link between what is legal, and what is practical to use/own.

juice1304

Yes they need authorization for different calibres and then also the shooting positions people are aloud to shoot from. Most ranges only cater for .22 etc.. because of cost and also noise levels.

MrScootch

Thanks, I think I'll go check out Courtlough, which I found a link for on here, and see how I get on. Might find a small target rifle more my thing.

susign

bravestar wrote: »

Your choice of ammo could cause a semi not to cycle properly. A pump does not have that problem. Regardless though, don't put a super magnum sized cartridge into a gun designed for magnum cartridges. Remember good idea/ bad idea from animaniacs?

Re: remington/mossberg
The main difference are in weight due to receiver construction. The mossberg has a thumb operated safety whereas your trigger finger will operate the safety on a 870. It's all down to preference really. They are both solid guns and have a huge following.

If I were you I would look for a second hand one in the for sale section. These guns are built to last so you needn't be worried. They normally go for around the 300 mark second hand. My 870 was very well used when I got it, plus the abuse I have given it and it still functions flawlessly.

Yes, watched a very good youtube clip where a guy explains the difference between the mossberg and the 870. All of his points matched yours exactly. I still have the soft spot for the 870 though, now that I have researched so much into them. It's hard to imagine that the 870 was introduced in 1949! that says somethin