Suicide Kills More Than Road Accidents In Clare

CptSternn

http://www.clarepeople.com/2013/01/30/suicide-takes-more-clare-lives-than-road-crashes/?fb_source=pubv1

OFFICIAL records show that four times more people from Clare died by suicide than on the county’s roads last year, and those working in the field of suicide prevention say the number in reality is much higher.

We have some damn fine drivers here.

Lady Chatterton

That makes for very distressing reading

Suicide is under reported too, so sadly the real figure is actually higher. Our suicide figures are under reported for lots of reasons. Sometimes a Coroner may decide to record a suicide as death by misadventure.

Normally, this is done where someone hasn't left a suicide note or where the deceased has left a young family who might be adversely affected by a suicide verdict.

It is worth noting that in some cases insurance companies refuse loss of life claims where a verdict of suicide is recorded, this would mean that the surviving partner would still be responsible for the outstanding mortgage on the family home. Coroners often look sympathetically at these situations.

I think there has to be more of an effort put into educating children in school about all mental health issues, how to manage stress and above all what to do if they are feeling suicidal. Suicide is such a permanent solution to any difficulty one might be experiencing.

I feel that something needs to be done too to tackle the waiting lists for Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services and Mental Health Services in general. I know of a case where a teenager attempted suicide and the HSE response was to place him on seven month waiting list to see a Psychiatrist. That is hardly an appropriate response? He was lucky that his parents could afford for him to be seen privately, but in this day and age not everyone can afford to pay €200 a session. Thankfully organisations such as Pieta House and Samartians are there to offer help to people as risk of taking their own lives, they do wonderful work.

Given the sensitive nature of the discussion, I've added a link with some helpline information

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056241245

Carazy

CptSternn wrote: »

http://www.clarepeople.com/2013/01/30/suicide-takes-more-clare-lives-than-road-crashes/?fb_source=pubv1



We have some damn fine drivers here.

The true figure is about two to three times as many.
Recently in The Clare Champion it showed the actual suicide figures which I found shocking. Shocking that they are not being properly recorded by the coroner imo.

Ascii

You would have to be happy with the fact that the number of road deaths are so low in the county....The fact that suicide rates are so high is tragic.

maiden

I volunteer for jury duty for coroners court, there are cases where in my view are 100% suicide but open and misadventure are more than likely the decisions that are brought back. I have questioned why but the majority of the jury vote is rarely suicide.

Lady Chatterton

Carazy wrote: »

The true figure is about two to three times as many.
Recently in The Clare Champion it showed the actual suicide figures which I found shocking. Shocking that they are not being properly recorded by the coroner imo.

I think this might be the report you're referring to.

Clare Samaritans' head questions figures
By Peter O'Connell
Friday, 28 December 2012 10:40
The director of the Samaritans in Clare, Gerry Dobbin, who is stepping down at the end of this month following a three-year term, believes that the national suicide rate is higher than official figures suggest.

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12775:clare-samaritans-head-questions-figures&catid=74:general&Itemid=60

Balagan

maiden wrote: »

I volunteer for jury duty for coroners court, there are cases where in my view are 100% suicide but open and misadventure are more than likely the decisions that are brought back. I have questioned why but the majority of the jury vote is rarely suicide.

Is the jury advised by the Coroner in any way or are they left completely free? Is it less a question of reaching the truth with the verdict and more one of, if at all possible, not bringing additional grief, perceived shame and financial distress? I've heard of jurors who were very much affected by the presence of obviously distressed family members.

Apparently it is very difficult to find people to serve on juries for Coroners Court and indeed the proceedings can be, and frequently are, conducted without a jury present.

In the east of the country recently there was a case where a person left what the coroner described as "a heart-rending and certainly a farewell letter" in their car but the letter was undated. An open verdict was returned.

Lady Chatterton

Balagan wrote: »

In the east of the country recently there was a case where a person left what the coroner described as "a heart-rending and certainly a farewell letter" in their car but the letter was undated. An open verdict was returned.

From the cases I have seen, there seems to be a reluctance to return a verdict of suicide where there is a surviving partner with dependents to support and a large mortgage.

Policies differ but some have an outright exclusion on suicide while others only exclude it if it occurs within the first year/two years/ or five years.

A suicide verdict could place the next of kin under huge financial strain and could result in them losing the family home.

Balagan

Carazy wrote: »

The true figure is about two to three times as many.
Recently in The Clare Champion it showed the actual suicide figures which I found shocking. Shocking that they are not being properly recorded by the coroner imo.

That might have been the CC article a few weeks ago which outlined, among other statistics, that of eight deaths by hanging in Clare in 2012, only one of those deaths was recorded as suicide at the inquests at the Coroner's Court.

maiden

Balagan wrote: »

Is the jury advised by the Coroner in any way or are they left completely free? Is it less a question of reaching the truth with the verdict and more one of, if at all possible, not bringing additional grief, perceived shame and financial distress? I've heard of jurors who were very much affected by the presence of obviously distressed family members.

It can be both reallly, the coroner can make a suggestion but mostly the jury is free to decide, after the one case i questioned because it was clear in my mind it was suicide, I was told it was 'an open' verdict because no one actually saw this person doing it so it could have been an accident etc.
But it was really for the families benefit., and i can understand why but then the statistics are all wrong and I know for a fact they are

Also unlike a criminal trial the jury have the power to question any witness ie garda, family members, post mortem guy etc

Mr. G

You might call them 'suicide tourists' but people do come and walk off the Cliffs of Moher. I don't think its actually Clare people were talking about here. There are people petrolling the cliffs now the last time I was there. Still the fact that there's more suicide deaths then road deaths is tragic.

Sunny Disposition

maiden wrote: »

I volunteer for jury duty for coroners court, there are cases where in my view are 100% suicide but open and misadventure are more than likely the decisions that are brought back. I have questioned why but the majority of the jury vote is rarely suicide.

How does this work, I thought anyone could be called for jury duty?

Balagan

maiden wrote: »

It can be both reallly, the coroner can make a suggestion but mostly the jury is free to decide, after the one case i questioned because it was clear in my mind it was suicide, I was told it was 'an open' verdict because no one actually saw this person doing it so it could have been an accident etc.
But it was really for the families benefit., and i can understand why but then the statistics are all wrong and I know for a fact they are

Also unlike a criminal trial the jury have the power to question any witness ie garda, family members, post mortem guy etc

In your experience how regularly would the juries exercise the right to question witnesses?

maiden

Balagan wrote: »

In your experience how regularly would the juries exercise the right to question witnesses?

Never, but i have been tempted, but i didnt due to fact it is open court, all the gardai and family are there and i didnt want to come across like an idiot because in my mind the question needed to be answered but to others it might have been a stupid question:

ie: a lady left her hotel in the morning to go to a local shop, she crashed and died. A verdict of accidental death was returned but there was no mention of an alcohol sample being taken from her and the post mortem guy never mentioned alcohol levels either, but i wanted to know!! Because if alcohol was a cause then it should have been death by misadventure but i was too embarrassed to ask

maiden

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

How does this work, I thought anyone could be called for jury duty?

Its the same jury all the times for coroners court, they are all in their 60s and 70s, well in Ennis anyway. You can go to the garda station and put your name on the list and if one of the 'regulars' cant go, you will be called. Sometimes I will get a call and ask if a know 2 other people to bring along, so some of my family and friends do it too but usually only do the one and wont do anymore.

I always ask, as im a townie, who the case is, as i wont do jury if i know the family and it is very upsetting, what i take out of it is an appreciation for my loved ones.

My sons joke they always know when i have been to coroners court because because i dont stop hugging them all day

Balagan

maiden wrote: »

Its the same jury all the times for coroners court, they are all in their 60s and 70s, well in Ennis anyway. You can go to the garda station and put your name on the list and if one of the 'regulars' cant go, you will be called. Sometimes I will get a call and ask if a know 2 other people to bring along, so some of my family and friends do it too but usually only do the one and wont do anymore.

I always ask, as im a townie, who the case is, as i wont do jury if i know the family and it is very upsetting, what i take out of it is an appreciation for my loved ones.

My sons joke they always know when i have been to coroners court because because i dont stop hugging them all day

You have explained a lot with this post and, to my mind, you have done a real public service in bringing to light a very possible reason which may contribute to so many suicides being returned as open and misadventure in Ennis. That isn't to say that of course there won't be those cases where there isn't enough evidence to judge them suicide. And some decisions are made in the absence of a jury so this would have no bearing there. While deeply admiring you for doing what you do in serving on the juries would you agree that the juries should always be made up of new jurors and be a good mix of ages, genders, walks of life etc.,? It would be a very good thing if you share what you know about the make-up of the juries, the regular jurors, their ages etc., with the wider public. Perhaps a letter to the two local papers with the request, of course, that your identity not be made known?

MrsD007

MrsD007 wrote: »

Policies differ but some have an outright exclusion on suicide while others only exclude it if it occurs within the first year/two years/ or five years.

A suicide verdict could place the next of kin under huge financial strain and could result in them losing the family home.

I'd say that's it.

Balagan

Mr_Grumpy wrote: »

You might call them 'suicide tourists' but people do come and walk off the Cliffs of Moher. I don't think its actually Clare people were talking about here. There are people petrolling the cliffs now the last time I was there. Still the fact that there's more suicide deaths then road deaths is tragic.

I suppose the incidents at the various cliffs are so public that they get talked about more widely but the Clare Champion article on the statistics mentioned that of the 23 deaths in 2012 on which inquests were needed (some inquests held, some awaiting), just two of that number had met their deaths from cliffs in the county.

Dermighty

Sad news, I don't think suicide can ever be 100% prevented or eliminated.

Increasing awareness is the best think that society can do.

maiden

Balagan wrote: »

would you agree that the juries should always be made up of new jurors and be a good mix of ages, genders, walks of life etc.,? It would be a very good thing if you share what you know about the make-up of the juries, the regular jurors, their ages etc., with the wider public. Perhaps a letter to the two local papers with the request, of course, that your identity not be made known?

100% agree!! they are the same people for years and years, and i was a bit shocked when i realised. I think maybe a pool of 50 people and rotate them as u say, actually im meeting a garda tonight who is in charge of coroners court and getting jury members in another county. I will have a word and ask a few questions

spurious

maiden wrote: »

100% agree!! they are the same people for years and years, and i was a bit shocked when i realised. I think maybe a pool of 50 people and rotate them as u say, actually im meeting a garda tonight who is in charge of coroners court and getting jury members in another county. I will have a word and ask a few questions

Do they run any checks on people who volunteer?
I'm sure most of those who volunteer do it for altruistic/civic reasons, but I can see it also being a magnet for those with 'unusual' interests.

maiden

spurious wrote: »

Do they run any checks on people who volunteer?
I'm sure most of those who volunteer do it for altruistic/civic reasons, but I can see it also being a magnet for those with 'unusual' interests.

Not that i know of! I do it out of civic duty, like a give blood every 3 months etc, costs me nothing but my time.

willow tree

Suicide could be greatly reduced if the government would put structures in place to deal with it. I did some training in this & in another country with similarly high stats as ours they brought in free counselling for all. They have reduced their rates significantly. It's an absolute disgrace. If one more person tells me they went to the Dr & were given anti depressents with no follow up or no recommendation of counselling I'll cry. There's no excuse for putting people on waiting lists.. if the person got the right treatment it would be cheaper also for the government than paying for these anti depressants. Pieta house is doing wonderful & important work. We need more like it.

pilate 1

willow tree wrote: »

Suicide could be greatly reduced if the government would put structures in place to deal with it. I did some training in this & in another country with similarly high stats as ours they brought in free counselling for all. They have reduced their rates significantly. It's an absolute disgrace. If one more person tells me they went to the Dr & were given anti depressents with no follow up or no recommendation of counselling I'll cry. There's no excuse for putting people on waiting lists.. if the person got the right treatment it would be cheaper also for the government than paying for these anti depressants. Pieta house is doing wonderful & important work. We need more like it.

point taken but(theres always a but)there is no money:(

Lady Chatterton

pilate 1 wrote: »

point taken but(theres always a but)there is no money:(

Pilate, I agree the country is broke but our Minister for Health seems to have plenty of money for his own pet projects such as prioritising two primary care centres in his own constituency and hospital upgrades in Wexford and Kilkenny for his ministerial colleagues Brendan Howlin and Phil Hogan even though the HSE felt that other hospitals were in more urgent need of an upgrade.

The other issue with the health service is that loads of money is pumped into it but lots of it is wasted on unnecessary levels of administration instead of frontline services.

willow tree

I think money is so badly managed in this country. I've always felt frustrated by this. Anyway, I think we all should answer to this problem. I wish I'd the confidence to do more. But speaking about it & being open & understanding is a step. Trying to assure people if they hold on, this time in their life will end & they can move forward with support. its so emotive & these are hard times for people. Getting into Clare schools (all schools of course) & giving children coping skills etc & a forum where they feel safe to talk would be helpful I think & I'm sure lots of qualified people would volunteer. ?