Customs warning!

Kashkai

My last order from airsoft park was sent to Customs on the 21st January and I heard nothing since. So I finally got through today to probably the most ignorant eejit I've ever had the displeasure of talking to and the conversation went like this.......

"Hello, I'm just trying to track down a parcel that was sent to you on the 21st by An Post". I give him the tracking number and he comes back with:

"That parcel contained a green laser which is illegal in Ireland as it could bring down helicopters. You will be receiving a letter from the enforcement section. The entire parcel has been destroyed"

Cue me recovering from shock......"But that's news to me as I used to be an Air Traffic Controller and these parts were for a toy gun (excuse the slight on Airsoft but I didn't want to dig a deeper hole with this guy). There was a torch in the parcel too. Will I get that"

"The entire parcel has been destroyed. You'll get your letter tomorrow". Then he hangs up.

So that's me $120 down the drain with this "threatening letter" on the way. Jeez I only ordered the green laser as the red one was out of stock.

So to those who have posted lately about ordering stuff in from the far east and sneaking past Customs, be warned.

Tbh, I'm more angry about that clown and the way he spoke to me than I am at losing $120 worth of equipment.

jimmer123

Complain about the person involved or else he will continue to get away with it

Corkbah

should have asked him for his name... if you felt his attitude was improper ...report him to his bosses.

its only fair that people in his position deal with people using respect and not speak down to them or be rude.

Kashkai

I didn't get a chance to ask for his name as he hung up pronto and I was in a state of shock at finding out that I'd just lost 120 dollars of gear.

If green lasers are illegal, then fine, no problem, I should have checked but to lose the hand guard with torch as well just because it was in the same parcel is maddening. Christ, why couldn't they have just impounded the laser and sent on the rest?

I'm not a public service basher but that muppet would give me reason to become one.

Mods, perhaps a warning on green lasers as a sticky might prevent others from throwing good money away?

Keegan

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Mods, perhaps a warning on green lasers as a sticky might prevent others from throwing good money away?

While I'm not a mod but,

* While it is unclear of the leaglity of using lasers on airsoft devices discusssion of it is allowed here with the understanding that actually doing so may be illegal. Only lasers that meet the following criteria are legal in Ireland:

- lasers of less than 5 milli Watts
- in the light frequencies of 630 to 680nm

Which means that all Blue and Green lasers (which are out side of light frequencies of 630 to 680nm) are illeagle and should not be discussed here.

^^^Taken from the charter

Kashkai

Fair enough! My ignorance of Irish law is not a defence but still.......:mad:

Untamedlemon

Im beginning to question whether I should buy that holster or not....annoying little dilema but hard luck anyway I tell ya I would have gone ballistic at that guy and then hed have a reason to hang up .....be bloody deaf so he would

Southern Dandy

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

My last order from airsoft park was sent to Customs on the 21st January and I heard nothing since. So I finally got through today to probably the most ignorant eejit I've ever had the displeasure of talking to and the conversation went like this.......

"Hello, I'm just trying to track down a parcel that was sent to you on the 21st by An Post". I give him the tracking number and he comes back with:

"That parcel contained a green laser which is illegal in Ireland as it could bring down helicopters. You will be receiving a letter from the enforcement section. The entire parcel has been destroyed"

Cue me recovering from shock......"But that's news to me as I used to be an Air Traffic Controller and these parts were for a toy gun (excuse the slight on Airsoft but I didn't want to dig a deeper hole with this guy). There was a torch in the parcel too. Will I get that"

"The entire parcel has been destroyed. You'll get your letter tomorrow". Then he hangs up.

So that's me $120 down the drain with this "threatening letter" on the way. Jeez I only ordered the green laser as the red one was out of stock.

So to those who have posted lately about ordering stuff in from the far east and sneaking past Customs, be warned.

Tbh, I'm more angry about that clown and the way he spoke to me than I am at losing $120 worth of equipment.

Jesus what a balls, I knew there was a law regarding lasers but I though it only applied to the power of it not the colour.

File a complaint with them, if you feel wronged or mistreated, strong possibility it will fall on deaf ears but worth a punt, I'd plague them actually until I got something from them.

On a humourous side note to lighten the mood a bit, you were a air traffic controller?? that was pretty unexpected if you don't mind me saying, don't ask why

I Armour I

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/employment_and_social_policy/health_hygiene_safety_at_work/c11151_en.htm#KEY

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-SKY-GREEN-BEAM-LASER-POINTER-PEN-1mW-532nm-/190545047449?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item2c5d5eaf99#ht_2632wt_1163


I have been terribly curious so I asked my Law lecturer and while there are EU directive (above) as it turns out there is no actual Statute that dictates a law on them other than speculation and mentioned "rumor" from past cases (my lecturers words not mine)

However according to laws that touch on the legality of lasers and such, I was told that the criteria for one is that it be a class 3b(?) and be under 5 milliwatts. The mention of colour or nm apparently has never come up according to my 50-60 year old lecturer/barrister. Now I don't want to throw caution to the wind saying what is legal and not , only what I have been told but even I and many others have searched to no avail other than this charter, site rules and what everyone else has been told.

I will investigate this further but as far as I am also aware, the whole parcel shouldn't have been destroyed either only the "illicit" good(s).. Just my 2 cents

Sorry about what happened Dave

--Armour

Kashkai

Southern Dandy wrote: »

On a humourous side note to lighten the mood a bit, you were a air traffic controller?? that was pretty unexpected if you don't mind me saying, don't ask why

But I have to ask why? I was in ATC (a long time ago mind) but I'd still find it hard to believe that someone's aim would be so good that they could track an aircraft moving in excess of 100mph and keep a laser in a pilots eyes???

Lil Armour wrote: »

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/employment_and_social_policy/health_hygiene_safety_at_work/c11151_en.htm#KEY

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-SKY-GREEN-BEAM-LASER-POINTER-PEN-1mW-532nm-/190545047449?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item2c5d5eaf99#ht_2632wt_1163


I have been terribly curious so I asked my Law lecturer and while there are EU directive (above) as it turns out there is no actual Statute that dictates a law on them other than speculation and mentioned "rumor" from past cases (my lecturers words not mine)

However according to laws that touch on the legality of lasers and such, I was told that the criteria for one is that it be a class 3b(?) and be under 5 milliwatts. The mention of colour or nm apparently has never come up according to my 50-60 year old lecturer/barrister. Now I don't want to throw caution to the wind saying what is legal and not , only what I have been told but even I and many others have searched to no avail other than this charter, site rules and what everyone else has been told.

I will investigate this further but as far as I am also aware, the whole parcel shouldn't have been destroyed either only the "illicit" good(s).. Just my 2 cents

Sorry about what happened Dave


--Armour

Cheers mate. Appreciate you taking the time to look into this.

I spent the afternoon on the Revenue.ie website and I couldn't find any mention of lasers, green, red or pink with blue spots for that matter. If a green laser is against Irish law, then so be it. Tough luck on my part but I'd like to see it in writing first, before they consign my order to the bin, crusher, furnace, etc.

I'd also like to know if they can in fact destroy the entire order, even my innocuous torch, or is that a lethal weapon too??

Witcher

Lil Armour wrote: »

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/employment_and_social_policy/health_hygiene_safety_at_work/c11151_en.htm#KEY

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-SKY-GREEN-BEAM-LASER-POINTER-PEN-1mW-532nm-/190545047449?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item2c5d5eaf99#ht_2632wt_1163


I have been terribly curious so I asked my Law lecturer and while there are EU directive (above) as it turns out there is no actual Statute that dictates a law on them other than speculation and mentioned "rumor" from past cases (my lecturers words not mine)

However according to laws that touch on the legality of lasers and such, I was told that the criteria for one is that it be a class 3b(?) and be under 5 milliwatts. The mention of colour or nm apparently has never come up according to my 50-60 year old lecturer/barrister. Now I don't want to throw caution to the wind saying what is legal and not , only what I have been told but even I and many others have searched to no avail other than this charter, site rules and what everyone else has been told.

I will investigate this further but as far as I am also aware, the whole parcel shouldn't have been destroyed either only the "illicit" good(s).. Just my 2 cents

Sorry about what happened Dave

--Armour

Quote of a post I made recently explaining it;

Blay wrote: »

The DOJ gave the IAA limits of 5 mW, 630 to
680nm a few years ago when asked about it.

Link to article

The amendment to Section 1(d) of the 1925 Firearms
Act they mention is from the 2006 Criminal Justice Act which changed the definition of a firearm to include

“ firearm ” means—

[...]

(d) any type of stun gun or other weapon for causing any shock or other disablement to a person by means of electricity or any other kind of energy emission.

They always destroy the whole package if there is an offending item in it, it encourages you to avoid such items.

lux-et-veritas

just out of interest, does anyone know where in the statute's green (or any colour for that matter) lasers are mentioned.. cos i couldn't find it anywhere and i would like to read it.

Southern Dandy

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

But I have to ask why?

Nah no reason really , It's just a occupation that you don't particularly hear much of, pretty cool all the same.

I know what you mean, to be honest it was a ridiculous excuse that he gave you. Sad case of affairs that the whole package was destroyed, it would be more of a deterrent to destroy the one offending item rather than the lot in my opinion. And now you more than likely will suffer paranoia every time you make an order abroad, which makes the waiting for a soddin package more of a pain.

Witcher

lux-et-veritas wrote: »

just out of interest, does anyone know where in the statute's green (or any colour for that matter) lasers are mentioned.. cos i couldn't find it anywhere and i would like to read it.

The DoJ gave the limits to the IAA, I believe they're limits at which the laser can cause injury. Under the 2006 CJA anything that can cause 'any shock or other disablement to a person by means of electricity or any other kind of energy emission' is considered a firearm.

The damage a laser over those limits could cause would constitute 'other disablement' so importing a laser over '5 mW, 630 to
680nm' is essentially importing a firearm if you keep to the letter of the law.

Southern Dandy

Blay wrote: »

The DoJ gave the limits to the IAA, I believe they're limits at which the laser can cause injury. Under the 2006 CJA anything that can cause 'any shock or other disablement to a person by means of electricity or any other kind of energy emission' is considered a firearm.

The damage a laser over those limits could cause would constitute 'other disablement' so importing a laser over '5 mW, 630 to
680nm' is essentially importing a firearm if you keep to the letter of the law.

And is there anything regarding colour blay do you know?.

Witcher

Southern Dandy wrote: »

And is there anything regarding colour blay do you know?.

No, there's nothing about colour, Customs probably just work off the assumption that all green/blue etc lasers are over the limit, even though some green ones are within that band I think.

defenderdude

Southern Dandy wrote: »

And is there anything regarding colour blay do you know?.

Afaik, the wavelength defines the colour.

Evade

Southern Dandy wrote: »

And is there anything regarding colour blay do you know?.

Blay wrote: »

No, there's nothing about colour, Customs probably just work off the assumption that all green/blue etc lasers are over the limit, even though some green ones are within that band I think.

Wavelength = colour. 630-680nm is in the red part of the spectrum.

Rooky1

Nice little graph showing you the colours and there frequencies:)
I won't even pretend too understand any of it though!

http://www.windows2universe.org/sun/spectrum/multispectral_sun_overview.html

Nonoperational

Are they allowed destroy things like that without allowing you dispute it? And I'm pretty sure they can't destroy other things in the package with no notice to you.

Witcher

Nonoperational wrote: »

Are they allowed destroy things like that without allowing you dispute it? And I'm pretty sure they can't destroy other things in the package with no notice to you.

Yes they can, it encourages you to self police what you're importing. The OP said he is awaiting a letter so he was notified.

TheDoc

Sigh...


Laser legality is not by its colour, but by its power, or whatever the ****. Its lazy to assume a green laser is illegal.

I have had green lasers that were 100% legal.


There is a customer services contact number for customers where you can go through a process to raise distress at poor service, or packages wrongfully destroyed to which you can claim. I had a 1911 pistol taken on me a few years back and when I eventually got it, six months after order, it was in a horrible state, used and worn. I went through this process, calmly and with a good amount of documented receipts and proof, and received the cost of the purchase back in full and an apology.

If you dont do anything, dont expect anything

And if your an IAA member, this is the sort of thing they can help you with, along with opening dialogue with customs, through avenues that have been there for years. Was actually the IAA who sorted out my pistol lark in truth. But sure they don't do anything for anyone :rolleyes:

Evade

TheDoc wrote: »

Sigh...


Laser legality is not by its colour, but by its power, or whatever the ****. Its lazy to assume a green laser is illegal.

I have had green lasers that were 100% legal.

Going by the guidelines given to the IAA green lasers are illegal to use on an airsoft device because the green part of the spectrum is around 495-570nm.

Kashkai

Well I have a Lenser torch that you can focus the beam down to a narrow shaft of light. I once looked into this beam and was temporarily blinded for a minute or so. Yet this is legal and a laser is not?

I still can't find a reference relating specifically to lasers in the Customs website. So it looks like there isn't a direct prohibition on them just a general catch all someplace.

Still no letter from Customs though.

I Armour I

As it turns out. under the Criminal Justice act (I finally found it !!!)

“(1) In this Act—

“ ammunition ” (except where used in relation to a prohibited weapon) means ammunition for a firearm and includes—

(a) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm,

(b) any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or missile, and

(c) restricted ammunition, unless the context otherwise requires;

“ Commissioner ” means the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána or a member of the Garda Síochána, or members of a particular rank in the Garda Síochána, not below the rank of superintendent appointed in writing by the Commissioner for the purpose of performing any of the Commissioner’s functions under this Act;

“ firearm ” means—

(a) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged,

(b) an air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy,

(c) a crossbow,

(d) any type of stun gun or other weapon for causing any shock or other disablement to a person by means of electricity or any other kind of energy emission,

(e) a prohibited weapon,

(f) any article which would be a firearm under any of the foregoing paragraphs but for the fact that, owing to the lack of a necessary component part or parts, or to any other defect or condition, it is incapable of discharging a shot, bullet or other missile or projectile or of causing a shock or other disablement, as the case may be,

(g) except where the context otherwise requires, any component part of any article referred to in any of the foregoing paragraphs and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the following articles shall be deemed to be such component parts:

(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e),

(ii) a silencer designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b) or (e), and

(iii) any object—

(I) manufactured for use as a component in connection with the operation of a firearm, and

(II) without which it could not function as originally designed,

and

(h) a device capable of discharging blank ammunition and to be used as a starting gun or blank firing gun,

As you can see lasers aren't telescopic sights. Don't use infra-red. Taken from http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec8

Definition of laser: "A laser is a device that emits light (electromagnetic radiation) through a process of optical amplification based on the stimulated emission of photons."

Definition of infra-red: "Infrared (IR) light is electromagnetic radiation with longer wavelengths than those of visible light, extending from the nominal red edge of the visible spectrum at 0.74 micrometres (µm) to 0.3 mm"


Under their definitions: a laser of green, red or blue is beneath 700 nm. An infra-red device is above 700 nm.

Now this is indicates that (ignoring the IAA and what DOJ issued them.) IF you never came across Boards.ie and armed only with the knowledge that lasers are legal (take a look at concerts, clubs etc. Lasers of all colours.) not only that they technically aren't infra-red. Also! Buying from Irish/foreign retailers (a loop hole) that sell different colour lasers, they aren't designed to be mounted on actual firearms (above 1 joule). So my understanding is no law is broken with these lasers and further-more there is no Statute in Irish law to dictate it or airsoft. To top that that off, Acts in Ireland, under it's constitution need to be consented to in a court of law. I.E if two men wnat to fight and neither man wants to press charges, no consent. Neither man has to abide by that law as long as their circumstance is their only.

To conclude: Customs were wrong, and unless there is a written law for it than by interpretation of the Criminal Justice Act of 2006 and it's alteration in 2009, your package shouldn't be destroyed and unless a Garda, or sight owner doesn't allow their use, you technically should be able to use lasers of any colour (brown if wanted)

By the way I got in contact with a few sources that were able to contact me and this was the information after being investigated in Irish legislation

Let's just say these people defined some laws in thier time :P
--Armour

I Armour I

Also to add to the above, if this were to be taken heavily into account, wouldn't either ALL mountable lasers be "banned" or ALL mountable lasers be "allowed" as it mentions nothing of mW or nM? Taking this into account it seems as if vagueness and lack of description has left a rather big hole in the system. It seems colour is only ever mentioned by Boards, the IAA, customs(?) (they probably got their info from boards. I only say this because the DOJ can only agree on what a law will become, they can't enforce it. Only a Judge can in a court of law. Taken straight from the CJA 2006. Boo-ya!

--Armour enjoy

Gatling

Its 4:24 lil armour brilliant

mathepac

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

But I have to ask why? I was in ATC (a long time ago mind) but I'd still find it hard to believe that someone's aim would be so good that they could track an aircraft moving in excess of 100mph and keep a laser in a pilots eyes??? ...

Since you days in ATC helicopter-type aircraft have been developed. They can hover at low altitude or traverse terrain at low speed making the pilots and crew particularly vulnerable to laser abuse.

Due to the lack of "spread" of the beam produced by a laser, the light will be concentrated from greater distances and will cause distraction at best, eye-damage / night blindness at worst (green & blue lasers).

Kashkai

And by helicopter type aircraft, are you referring to US Marine Ospreys that are tilt rotor? Not many of them in Ireland afaik.

Look, I'm in my mid 40's, have five kids, am a responsible adult etc etc etc. I bought this laser to use while plinking in my 50 metre long back garden purely as a targeting aid in low light conditions, i.e. overcast, dusk etc. I never had the intention of using it at an airsoft site as (a) I play in daylight hours so why would I need a laser? and (b) I wouldn't shine a torch, let alone a laser in someone's eyes.

Still no contact from Customs so I'm ringing them again on Monday to discuss this matter with them reasonably (on my part at least. I can't say what their attitude will be though). Perhaps their mindset is "someone once told them all green lasers are dangerous and thus they must be destroyed". When pressed on the matter, I'm pretty sure they wont be able to quote the relevant legislation to me. However I don't expect to get what I would consider a reasonable response (which to be fair would be they impound the laser but release the hand guard torch). I'll then kick the matter up a level to complain.

Anyone know to whom I could direct this too as the Revenue.ie website appears to be set up to allow you to complain only about your tax affairs like PAYE etc but not Customs issues?

I Armour I

http://www.revenue.ie/en/contact/customs-division.html

Customs Information Office
New Custom House
Promenade Road
Dublin
Ireland
Tel:+353 (0)1 877 6222, 877 6223

All I could find Dave. My apologies for my long a** tangent up above but my understanding of customs is that if you don't open the letter they send you, (destroy it, send it back) and if you use the information I gave above, than you can claim as your parcel: a)contents overall shouldn't have been destroyed, b) if the green laser thing is debatable than at least the hand guard should have been gotten through, or you should have be notified BEFORE the parcel was destroyed.

This is educated guessing and that I have had close friends order in airsoft items before with the above being the proceedings or to my better understanding; "the normative practice"

My two cents, hope all is figured out Dave

--Armour

Evade

Lil Armour wrote: »

(g) except where the context otherwise requires, any component part of any article referred to in any of the foregoing paragraphs and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the following articles shall be deemed to be such component parts:

(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e),

I might be reading this wrong but doesn't that say the items in (i) are legally considered firearm components? What does that have to do with visible lasers?

I Armour I

Evade wrote: »

I might be reading this wrong but doesn't that say the items in (i) are legally considered firearm components? What does that have to do with visible lasers?

That's exactly my point. That is the only piece of legislation info that is even remotely similar to lasers. Since lasers (as defined above) aren't in the act and because they aren't able to be mounted on real firearms (recoil would wreck them) then lasers aren't illegal.

Relevant to the OP, Dave, his package shouldn't have been destroyed because nothing was illegal.

--Armour

Evade

Lil Armour wrote: »

That's exactly my point. That is the only piece of legislation info that is even remotely similar to lasers. Since lasers (as defined above) aren't in the act and because they aren't able to be mounted on real firearms (recoil would wreck them) then lasers aren't illegal.

I'm pretty sure you can mount a laser to real steel and as far as I know that's also illegal here.

Have you tried looking up lasers in health and safety? From what I remember the 5mW 630-680nm limit is because at that power and wavelength you can reflexively blink before any damage can be done.

I Armour I

Oh that it is, but the cheaper ones weren't designed to sustain being mounted to real steel.

Well the only things I could find were HSE stuff but there is no Irish law on lasers or their use in airsoft... Which does explain why clubs/ concerts can use them also... either way there is no law about them and it is down to the person to use them illegally or for their own devices. Sight owners will ultimately say if you can or can't use them.


Hope I contributed in some way :P

--Armour

ironclaw

Evade wrote: »

Going by the guidelines given to the IAA green lasers are illegal to use on an airsoft device because the green part of the spectrum is around 495-570nm.

Like Joules, you can't quote Joules without specifying the weight of BB used to calculate it. Light calculations are far more complicated (i.e Power calculations) but you cannot ban a device purely because it sits inside a wavelength range. That would pretty much ban anything that produces green (or whatever wavelength) light. Unless the law makes provision as to how that light is produced (I'm pretty sure it doesn't)

Its quite possible to focus low wattage LED lights to hugely blinding and incapacitating levels.

Evade

ironclaw wrote: »

Like Joules, you can't quote Joules without specifying the weight of BB used to calculate it.

Yes you can. One joule is one joule whether it's a .20g bb, a .25g bb or a 1kg bb.

ironclaw wrote: »

Light calculations are far more complicated (i.e Power calculations) but you cannot ban a device purely because it sits inside a wavelength range. That would pretty much ban anything that produces green (or whatever wavelength) light. Unless the law makes provision as to how that light is produced (I'm pretty sure it doesn't)

Its quite possible to focus low wattage LED lights to hugely blinding and incapacitating levels.

The guideline given to the IAA and in the charter here only applies to lasers.

ironclaw

Yes you can. One joule is one joule whether it's a .20g bb, a .25g bb or a 1kg bb.

Sorry, my bad typo. Joules should read fps in that post. I was talking in an abstract example of fps and joules. My point was you can't ban a wavelength (Analogous to fps for example) without specifying the output power (Analogous to BB weight for example), how you measured it, generated it, focused it etc.

There are LED based systems that are just as hazardous to human vision that have no restrictions on their use.

sliabh

Lil Armour wrote: »

Oh that it is, but the cheaper ones weren't designed to sustain being mounted to real steel.

Well the only things I could find were HSE stuff but there is no Irish law on lasers or their use in airsoft... Which does explain why clubs/ concerts can use them also... either way there is no law about them and it is down to the person to use them illegally or for their own devices. Sight owners will ultimately say if you can or can't use them.

Lasers are covered in Irish law, but through Health and Safety regulations. The fact that they are being used for recreational purposes is incidental.

The Health and Safety Authority has information on Optical Radiation on their site.

It appears that the relevant legislation was enacted in 2010: SAFETY, HEALTH AND WELFARE AT WORK (GENERAL
APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2010.

Be warned the legislation gets pretty technical pretty quick. But they do make the point that the risk associated with lasers is dependent on both the power and the frequency (the nm value for the beam which is the colour yoyu see).

There is an easier to read leaflet on optical radiation here. This one makes the distinction between classes of lasers.

A 3R Laser is something up to 5mW in power (but the exact limit will depend on the wavelength - you can work backwards from the formulae in the 2010 Regulations). The HSA says

"no special conditions are required."

The level above is Class 3B which is in the nasty zone. 3B is from 5mW up to 500mw (again dependent on the wavelength). Some of the comments there are:

Training for workers using Class 3B and Class 4 lasers will almost
always be required.

This doesn't answer the question of the legal status of lasers. But my point is that they are more likely covered under Health and Safety regulations.

When I was digging around on this I did come across this transcript of two members of the Irish Airline Pilots Association asking a Dail committee for action to restrict lasers in 2011. I don't think any legislation has been passed since then. But there may be some regulation or other restriction passed that doesn't require an act in the Dail.

sliabh

ironclaw wrote: »

There are LED based systems that are just as hazardous to human vision that have no restrictions on their use.

The big difference is that lasers are coherent light - so the energy is focused on a much smaller spot making it considerably more intense - and hence dangerous.

Evade

ironclaw wrote: »

Sorry, my bad typo. Joules should read fps in that post. I was talking in an abstract example of fps and joules. My point was you can't ban a wavelength (Analogous to fps for example) without specifying the output power (Analogous to BB weight for example), how you measured it, generated it, focused it etc.

The power is less than 5mW and it's a laser (does the exact method of producing the laser makes a difference?). How does the method of measuring it make a difference?

ironclaw wrote: »

There are LED based systems that are just as hazardous to human vision that have no restrictions on their use.

I don't doubt it, staring in to a carbon arc lamp isn't good for your eyes either.

sliabh

Lil Armour wrote: »

To top that that off, Acts in Ireland, under it's constitution need to be consented to in a court of law. I.E if two men wnat to fight and neither man wants to press charges, no consent. Neither man has to abide by that law as long as their circumstance is their only.

While I am not a lawyer I can tell you that this is self evidently cobblers. Otherwise duelling (to take one example) would still be legal in Ireland.

A criminal offence is an criminal offence regardless of whether the individual parties want to purse it. Otherwise murder would be easy to get away with, and victim intimidation (to get people to decline to press charges) would be rife.

And as an aside, we would probably have no-limit airsoft as shooting people with >1J guns could cease to be classed as assault :-)

ironclaw

sliabh wrote: »

The big difference is that lasers are coherent light - so the energy is focused on a much smaller spot making it considerably more intense - and hence dangerous.

You do realise LED's are, give or take, a single wavelength as well yes? And the reason for the slow adoption into household lighting is the strong presence of UV in some 'white' LED's and the unknown effects it has on human eye? You do realise some LED's require protective eye wear when in use?

The power is less than 5mW and it's a laser (does the exact method of producing the laser makes a difference?). How does the method of measuring it make a difference?

A laser when powered that consumes 5mW, a laser than produces 5mW of heat, a laser that produces 5mW of light (Which is an incorrect measurement, because you'd need to say if that was Lux, Lumens etc and if applicable what area it was being measured on) are all entirely different.

A 50W 'old school' light bulb could easily be outdone by a 1W LED light in terms of raw light output. So you can't make comparisons on the scale of wattage alone. In fact its chalk and cheese.

You cannot simply state a greater than 5mW laser is illegal without stating quite a lot of parameters to go with it.

Evade

ironclaw wrote: »

You do realise LED's are, give or take, a single wavelength as well yes? And the reason for the slow adoption into household lighting is the strong presence of UV in some 'white' LED's and the unknown effects it has on human eye? You do realise some LED's require protective eye wear when in use?

So because LEDs can be dangerous and are unregulated we shouldn't regulate lasers?

ironclaw wrote: »

A laser when powered that consumes 5mW, a laser than produces 5mW of heat, a laser that produces 5mW of light (Which is an incorrect measurement, because you'd need to say if that was Lux, Lumens etc and if applicable what area it was being measured on) are all entirely different.

As far as I know it's 5 mW total output.

ironclaw wrote: »

A 50W 'old school' light bulb could easily be outdone by a 1W LED light in terms of raw light output. So you can't make comparisons on the scale of wattage alone. In fact its chalk and cheese.

You cannot simply state a greater than 5mW laser is illegal without stating quite a lot of parameters to go with it.

Yes different methods of generating light are more efficient than others but luckily we're only concerned with one method, lasers.

Kashkai

My neighbour dropped in the letter from Customs as it was delivered to them by accident. It says very little tbh, something like "goods seized under some 19th century act and I have 30 days to appeal this decision". Then there's some small print about being compensated for the goods by Revenue and being prosecuted (a little schizophrenic if you ask me!)

I have the right to appeal, in writing, to the person who seized the order. The laser and the M4 "lithium powered torch" are specifically mention in the letter and there doesn't appear to be any differentiation made between them by Customs.

So I now have to appeal to the person who seized the order in the first place. Hardly impartial now is he? My proposed grounds for the appeal are that:

1. There is nothing on the Customs website that lists lasers of any colour under their "prohibited goods"

2. There is no mention of what Act/Regulation that outlaws lasers

3. There is no reason to seize the torch as well

4. The example of using this laser to down an aircraft is pie in the sky (excuse the pun). As an ex ATC officer, I'm on solid ground with that argument.

Anyone else have any opinions/angles I can use?

Thanks

I Armour I

That their purpose is for "toys" (sorry) and the goods and their use aren't illicit in the republic of Ireland or within the EU.

S.E.A.L.s

sliabh wrote: »

duelling (to take one example) would still be legal in Ireland.

As interesting as this thread is, I'd really like to hear from our legal eagles, about the status of duelling in Ireland

thermo

SEALs_Ireland wrote: »

As interesting as this thread is, I'd really like to hear from our legal eagles, about the status of duelling in Ireland

deulling is illegal, however it is still legal in paraguay as long as both parties are registered blood donors.

on topic, i hope the situation resolves itself for you dave.

S.E.A.L.s

thermo wrote: »

deulling is illegal, however it is still legal in paraguay as long as both parties are registered blood donors.

Thank you for answering my question and solving my holiday plans, it looks like I'm heading to the southern hemisphere

Kashkai

Cheers Thermo (and Armour for the legal stuff)

Tbh, I'd settle for just getting the M4 hand guard with integrated torch. The laser was an impulse buy as I thought it'd help me get more shots in during my backyard plinking as it got dark. I have the feeling Customs won't admit that perhaps they got it wrong (at least in relation to the hand guard).

As an aside, a quick google of "green laser Ireland" this evening through up loads of vendors selling them in this country. eBay is awash with Irish based vendors selling them. Plus a few well known Irish shops (incl Airsoft retailers) stock green lasers. Why pick on me?

Ok, I'll shut up now on the subject but I'll let you know how I eventually get on.

Atb

thermo

SEALs_Ireland wrote: »

Thank you for answering my question and solving my holiday plans, it looks like I'm heading to the southern hemisphere

if your planning on deulling and its your first time doing so only fight to first blood, kinda ease yourself into it.

thermo

dave maybe send a pm to fayer, he seems to be well brushed up on laws pertaining to airsoft and airsoft related stuff in this country.