How does criminal aid payments work

jd80

Hello,

How does the calculation for payment to a solicitor under Criminal Legal aid actually work. Take an example - District Court matter

A person is charged.

Initial date: Client obtains a solicitor and they go to court for a Gary Doyle order. Then a date for a 'plea or a hearing date' is set

Second Date: As the state do not provide all documents under the Gary doyle, the solicitor asks for another date for a 'plea or hearing date' to be fixed and gets it

Third date: applies for a hearing date

Fourth date: case is heard (in one day or less)


So under Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) (Amendment) Regulations it says that the solicitor is entitled to the following (exact wording):

'First day of Hearing €201.50'
'Subsequent days of hearing' €50.39

So in the above example is does he get 201.50 + 50.39 +50.39 + 50.39 as he was there four times?

OR

Does he just get 201.50 for all that work - suggesting that the word 'hearing' as in the statute means ONLY the hearing date?


Does he get anything for meetings with the client or letters he writes to the State on his behalf?

Thanks

Victor

jd80 wrote: »

Does he get anything for meetings with the client or letters he writes to the State on his behalf?

I suspect that is included in the €201.

I presume that is the district court scale for minor matters. It probably isn't enough if it went to a full trial.

jd80

Victor wrote: »

I suspect that is included in the €201.

I presume that is the district court scale for minor matters. It probably isn't enough if it went to a full hearing.

As I read it, It does not differentiate for what type of matters.

It says 'hearing date' and 'subsequent date' in the statute.

Someone on here must know exactly how it is calculated?

Victor

Apologies, I mean to say "a full trial", not "a full hearing". Many district court matters are dealt with in under 5 minutes. The €200 completely covers that and any preliminary meetings. However, in a full trial where there may be several witnesses and might take several hours in court, I imagine it's different.

However, not everything can be dealt with in a first hearing, e.g. if the accused was arrested, released on police bail and had a hearing the next morning for court bail, the timing may not be suitable for the accused to discuss the case with their solicitor or for witness statements to be shared. The case may be adjourned, possibly a few times. For each of those hearing, the solicitor would get the €50 for each of those appearances.

Legal aid is in the news today: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0131/1224329469904.html Of note, I imagine in most of the solicitors cases, it is the firm that is receiving those sums of money not the individual solicitor.

jd80

Victor wrote: »

However, not everything can be dealt with in a first hearing, e.g. if the accused was arrested, released on police bail and had a hearing the next morning for court bail, the timing may not be suitable for the accused to discuss the case with their solicitor or for witness statements to be shared. The case may be adjourned, possibly a few times. For each of those hearing, the solicitor would get the €50 for each of those appearances.

Hmmm!

first of all let me say what I mean by hearing.

In my example in post #1, getting the Gary Doyle, subsequent adjournment and then obtaining the hearing date (dates 1 to 3) are for me NOT hearings

The hearing date is where the pros and defence present their cases, call witnesses etc.

So do you mean he would get the 50.39 for dates one to three and 200 for date four - so 350 altogether ???

or 200 for date 1 and 50 for each of date 2 to 4 inc? same 350 but a different order e.g. if the pros struck the matter out on date 4 he would still be sure of the 200 as he 'got' it on date one

Legal aid is in the news today: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0131/1224329469904.html Of note, I imagine in most of the solicitors cases, it is the firm that is receiving those sums of money not the individual solicitor.

Does the whole list be printred on the DOJ website? - cant find it

NoQuarter

Hearing date is as you say in the post above OP. NOT the procedral appearances to request a Gary Doyle order etc.

Day 1 of the hearing is worth the 201. Then if the trial/hearing doesnt finish within the first day and runs into a second day, the top up fee or "refresher" as its called is 50.

I dont know what the story is with whether the first appearances are included in the 200 or separate.

jd80

NoQuarter wrote: »

I dont know what the story is with whether the first appearances are included in the 200 or separate.

This is what I am trying to find out too.

doesn't amount to a whole lot if the 201 is to cover all these procedural dates as well.

I think in any case that will be defended there will be at least two albeit short court appearances namely: obtaining GD order/legal aid and then 'for plea or hearing' date.

Sometimes as above more dates if e.g. state does not give out all info under GD or there are subsequent adjournments etc.

jd80

Any more ideas on this? (see post 7)

McCrack

Your rates are a little out of date.

The current rates are 223.89 for first appearance and 55.99 thereafter

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0136.html

So in your example the fees claimable are 223.89+55.99x3 (if the solicitor made four appearances).

McCrack

Travel and sustenance as well but not worth much.

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/committees/criminal/CLA_Travel%20Subsistence.pdf

jd80

McCrack wrote: »

Your rates are a little out of date.

The current rates are 223.89 for first appearance and 55.99 thereafter

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0136.html

No, not out of date

That is 2010 you refer to

In 2011 they were reduced see SI 362/2011 and numerous press reports

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0362.html

So in your example the fees claimable are 223.89+55.99x3 (if the solicitor made four appearances).

Is it though?

The statute says 'Hearing' and not an 'appearance'. Dates 1 - 3 as in post #1 are not 'hearings'

Can someone who has direct experience pin this down conclusively?

regards

jd80

Surely there is someone on here who has submitted an LA1 form and is familiar with 'making out the bill' and can thus answer the query I have submitted

ResearchWill

jd80 wrote: »

Surely there is someone on here who has submitted an LA1 form and is familiar with 'making out the bill' and can thus answer the query I have submitted

I asked a friend today, according to him, €201.50 is the first return date then €50.39 for each adjourned date average case takes 3 days day 1 application for copy statements, then adjourned to either plea or trial date.

jd80

ResearchWill wrote: »

I asked a friend today, according to him, €201.50 is the first return date then €50.39 for each adjourned date average case takes 3 days day 1 application for copy statements, then adjourned to either plea or trial date.

Good man - you know your craft!

Just for the avoidance of doubt the 'first return date' would equate to my 'date 1' (see post #1) on which all was done was the Gary doyle was applied for?

ResearchWill

jd80 wrote: »

Good man - you know your craft!

Just for the avoidance of doubt the 'first return date' would equate to my 'date 1' (see post #1) on which all was done was the Gary doyle was applied for?

Yes first return date is date on summons or charge sheet.

jd80

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes first return date is date on summons or charge sheet.

cool! thanks!

I suppose they could do it this way as the case may be struck out or dropped on or before the hearing date - maybe

chopser

jd80 wrote: »

Does the whole list be printred on the DOJ website? - cant find it

Anyone know where to get the full list? I can't see anything at all on their website.

jd80

chopser wrote: »

Anyone know where to get the full list? I can't see anything at all on their website.

Doesn't seem to be on it.

Maybe e-mail them??