European Nations Cup / World Cup Qualifier

boardieboardie

The second tier of European rugby, the European Nations Cup Div 1a begins this weekend as well, with Belgium joining the regulars Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain and Portugal for the two-season, 10-match, qualification process.
First two qualify, with the third to playoff against the winner of a qualification involving every other team in Europe, which gets them into the repechage.

First fixtures this Saturday are:
Belgium v Georgia
Russia v Spain
Portugal v Romania

P_1

Hmm 2 fairly even contests and one mismatch (on paper).

Any of these liable to be on the box or on some website with funny commentary?

boardieboardie

The mismatch may be shown on http://www.e-k.tv/videos/299-belgian-rugby/1505-le-rugby-belge-le-succes-du-collectif
(15:00 CET)

Not sure about the other two matches.

Interesting to see how Belgium do against a team able to give Scotland, Argentina and Fiji a match. Belgium have done very well at youth level in the last few years, but their pack will have a hard day against the likes of Nariashvili, Kubriashvili and Gorgodze.

They've a new back in the squad as well, 111kg Tamaz Mchedlidze, still only 18, who started in 5 matches of Mont de Marsan's recent Amlin Challenge Cup campaign.

f1dan

Also to note there's a bit of Irish involvement in the Russia v Spain game with an Irish referee and assistants

boardieboardie

Georgian Team for match against Belgium. Apart from front row, where they've their two first choice hookers injured and frontline props "unavailable", it's pretty full strength. I'm pretty sure this team would at the very least give Italy a game and probably dominate them up front. The average age of this squad is 24. (*new cap)

1 Michael Nariashvili (Montpellier T14)
2 Shalva Mamukashvili (Armia Geo)
3 David Kubriashvili (Toulon T14)
4 George Chkhaidze, Capt. (Tarbes Prod2)
5 Kote Mikautadze (Toulon T14)
6 Vito Kolelishvili (Clermont T14)
7 Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier, T14)
8 Dimitri Bassilaia (Edinburgh Pro12)
9 George Begadze (Batumi, Geo)
10 Merab Kvirikashvili (St Junien Fed1)
11 Tamaz Mtchedlidze* (Stade Montois T14)
12 Merab Sharikadze (Hartpury College Eng)
13 David Katcharava (Rodez Fed1)
14 Sandro Todua (Albi Prod2)
15 Beka Tsiklauri (Locomotivi, Geo)
16 Revaz Belkania (Lelo, Geo)
17 David Khinchaguishvili (Brive Prod2)
18 Levan Chilachava (Toulon T14)
19 Shalva Sutiashvili (Massy Prod2)
20 Beka Bitsadze (Armia Geo)
21 Vazha Khutsishvili* (Rustavi, Geo)
22 Lasha Khmaladze (Lelo, Geo)
23 George Pruidze* (Aia Kutaissi, Geo)

Podge_irl

boardieboardie wrote: »

7 Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier, T14)

Poor Belgians.

P_1

Very strong looking pack, imagine how scary Georgia could be if they could produce some talented backs :eek:

connemara man

P_1 wrote: »

Very strong looking pack, imagine how scary Georgia could be if they could produce some talented backs :eek:

also how good it would be for European Rugby

tolosenc

Yeah, they have a pack made up of Top 14 regulars, and a collection of semi-pros, Georgia based players and school children in the backs. A very wet day and they'd pose most big countries problems.

If they had backs of a similar quality they'd be scary.

duckysauce

Podge_irl wrote: »

Poor Belgians.

he went to town on the poor sods

[Jackass]

Two players were sent off for their troubles in that piece, judging by his behaviour, I truly hope Gorgodze was the Georgian one. Absolutely unacceptable at any level, and a shame that the most "senior" or high profile player on the pitch would let himself down by descending into that type of behaviour - particularly against what is mostly an amature team that he's twice the size of! :eeK:

For the record, Georgia needed a late try to scrape through with a late victory, Belgium led for most of the game.

tolosenc

[Jackass] wrote: »

Two players were sent off for their troubles in that piece, judging by his behaviour, I truly hope Gorgodze was the Georgian one. Absolutely unacceptable at any level, and a shame that the most "senior" or high profile player on the pitch would let himself down by descending into that type of behaviour - particularly against what is mostly an amature team that he's twice the size of! :eeK:

For the record, Georgia needed a late try to scrape through with a late victory, Belgium led for most of the game.

Gorgodze got away without so much as a ticking off! The guy he beat seven shades of **** out of, on the other hand, spent the next 75 minutes on the bench, thinking about what he had done. The ref sent off both tightheads, AFAIK.

Gorgodze should be facing a lengthy ban, though.

Hyperbullet

I moved to Belgium a few months ago and it's got a little bit of attention here. Everyone I've talked to obviously mentioned the brawl but seem pretty content they gave Georgia a run for their money.

The club game here is growing pretty well (will be playing for a team next season), though it's nothing compared to home in Ireland. Considering the country borders Germany, France and Holland, it's firmly soccer country over here.

postitnote

Maybe this has been done to death, but is there anything to be said for having for example a Georgian (or Belgian, or any other nation) Pro team playing in the likes of the Rabo?

Maybe a 2 Tier league with more pro teams from across Europe?

The major disadvantages I could see would be potential travel distances and the possibility of seeing a further deterioration of the lesser supported regions in Wales etc.

It may also affect performances in ERC competitions, but it would make matches more interesting in the Rabo with the potential of relegation/promotion etc.

It would also keep the Frenchies and English happy that teams could now get relegated.

Also a 2 league structure could open up the resurrection of a Celtic Cup style knockout competition?

Perhaps the likes of the provinces 'A' teams would be more suited to a league with minor euro nations' pro teams?

I'm brainstorming here, haven't given it much thought, but I'd be interested to hear other peoples thoughts?

irishbucsfan

I don't think we'd be able to put enough teams together for a 2 tier system. We'd need another 12 teams to make it worthwhile. There just won't be 12 teams who are able to afford it.

The more eastern european teams might be able to put one together on a smaller scale though.

pickarooney

tolosenc wrote: »

Gorgodze got away without so much as a ticking off! The guy he beat seven shades of **** out of, on the other hand, spent the next 75 minutes on the bench, thinking about what he had done. The ref sent off both tightheads, AFAIK.

Gorgodze should be facing a lengthy ban, though.

Watch the other angles and see if you still think the Belgian 3 was the innocent party:

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/02/2986/big-fight-between-belgium-and-georgia-in-rugby-world-cup-qualifier

The highlight is the Belgian full-back running over to help his team-mate and getting one look from the Georgian flanker and ****ting himself. Georgia 6 should have been thrown off for his cowardly, unprovoked attack on the winger.

TheGoldenAges

Bit of a bump but the IRB made a video of the Belgium and Georgia match, reckon they could be underdogs for qualification if they perform as well as they did against the Georgians.

Liveforrugby

Gorgodze enjoys a brawl every now and then,

P_1

Don't the Belgians have a lot of players playing in the T14 these days?

feargale

I fear Romania will for the first time fail to qualify for the next World Cup. It's such a pity for a nation that was once consistently able to give France a run for its money. What happened to Romania.

P_1

feargale wrote: »

I fear Romania will for the first time fail to qualify for the next World Cup. It's such a pity for a nation that was once consistently able to give France a run for its money. What happened to Romania.

The fall of Communism is what happened to Romania, well in terms of the strength of their rugby team anyway

Dan man

feargale wrote: »

I fear Romania will for the first time fail to qualify for the next World Cup. It's such a pity for a nation that was once consistently able to give France a run for its money. What happened to Romania.

They've won 2 matches from 2 in terms of World Cup qualifying....so 100% in the competition so far. I'd be fairly confident Romania has the firepower to get a top 2 qualifying berth.

petebricquette

Sweet hands for the Belgian try in that video. Pretty skilful stuff, great to see.

boardieboardie

Georgia extended squad for Russia.

Prop
Vasil Kakovin (Toulouse), Mikheil Nariashvili (Montpellier), Davit Kubriashvili (Toulon), Davit Zirakashvili (Clermont), Davit Khinchagishvili (Brive)
Hooker
Iuri Natriashvili (Brive), Shalva Mamukashvili (GEO)
2nd Row
Giorgi Chkhaidze (Tarbes), Kote Mikautadze (Toulon), Lasha Lomidze (Montpellier)
Back Row
Shalva Sutiashvili (Massy), Beka Bitsadze (GEO), Dimitri Basilaia (Edinburgh), Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier)
Scrum Half
Giorgi Begadze (GEO), Vaja Khutsishvil (GEO)
Out Half
Merab Kvirikashvili (St Junien), Lasha Khmaladze (GEO)
Three Quarters
Merab Sharikadze (Hartbury College), Davit Kacharava (Rodez), Tedo Zibzibadze (Perigueux), Irakli Machkhaneli (Unattached), Tamaz Mchedlidze (Mont de Marsan)
Full Back
Irakli Kiasashvili (GEO), Beka Tsiklauri (GEO)

boardieboardie

Results from the weekend:
Russia 9-23 Georgia
Spain 15-25 Romania
Portugal 18-12 Belgium

Standings (after 3 games) pt diff / Points

1. Georgia +31 12
2. Romania +31 12
3. Portugal-13 5
4. Belgium-10 4
5. Russia -25 4
6. Spain-14 3

Looks like Georgia and Romania are going to get the two qualification spots even at this early stage. They play in 3 weeks, the loser I guess becomes favourite to be in Ireland's group with the second half of matches to come this time next year.

CIARAN_BOYLE

feargale wrote: »

I fear Romania will for the first time fail to qualify for the next World Cup. It's such a pity for a nation that was once consistently able to give France a run for its money. What happened to Romania.

The did well with the amateur era when a bunch of players were given army jobs where they didn't have to do anything and basically trained like professionals.

feargale

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The did well with the amateur era when a bunch of players were given army jobs where they didn't have to do anything and basically trained like professionals.

In that case, after Sunday's result maybe we should put all our lads into the Curragh ( or Spike Island. )

Cardinal Richelieu

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The did well with the amateur era when a bunch of players were given army jobs where they didn't have to do anything and basically trained like professionals.

They weren't just in the army, many players were members of the Securitate(secret police).

I have a friend who lives in Romania and she tells me that the sport is starting to become popular again at underage level among the upper middle class.

boardieboardie

Romania drew with Georgia 9-9 in Bucharest. They both sit level on 19 points at the half way point of World Cup qualifying, Georgia win the 2013 ENC on points difference.

Belgium continue to pick up points without actually managing to win any games, on Saturday they managed to get their first 4-try BP in a 43-32 loss to Russia in Sochi.

GEO - 19
ROM - 19
RUS - 14
POR - 7
BEL - 5
SPA - 5

feargale

Any news?

boardieboardie

No more matches till next year - the ENC plays the same weekends as the 6N.
Georgia do play Argentina this weekend. Gorgodze is rested though, Basilaia (Edinburgh) is injured as is the giant Toulon second row Mikautadze.

In the second division (the winner will get to play 3rd in the ENC to get into the repechage) Moldova got three bonus point wins in a row in April and May, mainly through pushover tries. They have a monstrous pack compared to the other teams at their level - they have a prop at Sale, a hooker at Ospreys and all the rest of the pack play for the better clubs in Russia and Romania. If they get this team out for the 5 return fixtures they have a chance of overtaking Germany, but due to club pressures they often field weakened teams.

gagnidze

There has been no promotion, or relegation, between the European Nations Cup and the Six Nations

While the Georgia is champion on 3 last ENC (5 times in last 6)



How do you think, is it honestly, that 'The Lelos' (or any champion of ENC) has no chance to play in 6 nation?..

For example, in each two year be qualification match between ENC champion 6NC last place holder

I am pie

gagnidze wrote: »

There has been no promotion, or relegation, between the European Nations Cup and the Six Nations

While the Georgia is champion on 3 last ENC (5 times in last 6)



How do you think, is it honestly, that 'The Lelos' (or any champion of ENC) has no chance to play in 6 nation?..

For example, in each two year be qualification match between ENC champion 6NC last place holder

I would be all for it. Let last and first play off and see the winner and loser swap places. However, turkeys won't vote for Xmas.

feargale

Maybe there should just be a promotion without relegation. What would be so wrong with the 6N ultimately becoming the 8N? Correct, turkeys don't vote for Xmas, but if sport were fair the arrangement would be imposed on them. Unfortunately too much of sport is cynical, with very little will at the top to change.

ormond lad

feargale wrote: »

Maybe there should just be a promotion without relegation. What would be so wrong with the 6N ultimately becoming the 8N? Correct, turkeys don't vote for Xmas, but if sport were fair the arrangement would be imposed on them. Unfortunately too much of sport is cynical, with very little will at the top to change.

Definite no to 6nations expanding. Why expand it. Ultimately promotion/relegation should be looked at but no to expanding from 6.
Season big enough as is and French and English would def not agree as clubs would ensure it wouldn't happen

I am pie

ormond lad wrote: »

Definite no to 6nations expanding. Why expand it. Ultimately promotion/relegation should be looked at but no to expanding from 6.
Season big enough as is and French and English would def not agree as clubs would ensure it wouldn't happen

Correct, you would never get the expansion past the clubs.

Also, aside from Georgia, who would be competitve, I am not sure what the benefit would be in having Spain or Portugal beaten by 60+ points game in game out.

Would be nice to see the US team involved in some sort of tournament. Wouldn't be against involving them in that sub 6n tournament with a promotion element. Maybe Canada too...

Anyway, all pipe dreams alas.

feargale

I am pie wrote: »

I am not sure what the benefit would be in having Spain or Portugal beaten by 60+ points game in game out.

I said ultimately. What is it about Cricket and Rugby that there is such a dread of spreading the gospel?

ormond lad

feargale wrote: »

I said ultimately. What is it about Cricket and Rugby that there is such a dread of spreading the gospel?

No dread about spreading the gospel but ideas like expanding 6nations is not the answer. things like giving underage sides more games against the top countries. sending sides like emerging Ireland to Georgia as well as more games in November for Romania etc against top tier countries are ways to help.
Munster have been working with Swedish union over past few seasons helping them to improve for example a few coaches including academy coach Colm mc Mahon went over to Sweden 2 months ago to help coach a Swedish academy and the Swedish 18s were on a tour here 18 months ago or so and played 3/4 sides around the province

Podge_irl

Ormond puts it well.

Its utterly pointless even discussing expanding the 6N until there are proper structures in place in other countries to facilitate a professional game. We're talking decades here.

I would like to see the ENC grow as a competition though. It would be nice if the winner got something tangible - even if just some autumn tests against the 6N teams.

I am pie

feargale wrote: »

I said ultimately. What is it about Cricket and Rugby that there is such a dread of spreading the gospel?

I heard you, right now it is a nonsense, the focus must be raising up the level below the 6N. Introducing competitive teams like Canada and the US, having some sort of sub level international tournament including Japan and some other pacific sides might help too. Get Russia playing meaningful games regularly etc. I believe there is room for countries in South America to have second sport, Argentina manage well with two...Uruguay and Brazil should be development targets, Chile too.

Throwing smaller teams up with the big boys doesn't help.

gagnidze

All Europa are divided into divisions by Fira-Aer
I think, 6N must be add in this chain

http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/archives-competition-1.html


Let be play off between last from 6N and First from ENC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
there are tests of course, but tests are tests, not competition

ormond lad

gagnidze wrote: »

All Europa are divided into divisions by Fira-Aer
I think, 6N must be add in this chain

http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/archives-competition-1.html


Let be play off between last from 6N and First from ENC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
there are tests of course, but tests are tests, not competition

Yes but you need to play tests and be competitive in them and winning more against tier 1 nations before gaining entry to 6 nations. It is not time yet for that playoff between last in 6N and first in ENC.
I know that FIRA has divisions for all other European countries but the time for changing structures is not now.

feargale

Italy struggled initially in 6N but they have now made their mark. If what is being said here had been applied to them they would never have got into 6N.

ormond lad

feargale wrote: »

Italy struggled initially in 6N but they have now made their mark. If what is being said here had been applied to them they would never have got into 6N.

No. Italy had beaten Ireland 3 times in a row before getting into the 6Ns. Italy in the late 90s beat France, Ireland and Scotland prior to getting into 6Nations have any of the countries you think should be allowed join the 6Ns done that?
Italy were quite strong in 90s and more than deserved a place in 6Ns and no other countries are at level Italy were back right before they joined the 6Ns

Id love it if it was possible for other countries to play an expanded 6nations/ promotion&relegation etc but it is not time for that yet.

Podge_irl

Italy beat Ireland a couple times before being admitted to the 6N.

Beery Eyed

ormond lad wrote: »

Italy had beaten Ireland 3 times in a row before getting into the 6Ns.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Italy beat Ireland a couple times before being admitted to the 6N.

They did indeed, and it was a fantastic achievement. However, can we please stop using this particular case, and other cases from the past, as an example of how the game should be expanded now and in the future. Rugby and its structures have changed an enormous amount in the past number of years, and the idea of using a past example like this as guidance for future plans is equatable to using the tactics & training regimes of that era and expecting them to win top level games in the present. The game has changed significantly on all fronts, so references from the past are not necessarily the best example to look to for guidance.

In fact, even if it was worth examining this example, it could be argued that the admission of Italy was handled very poorly. By the time they eventually got around to letting them into the six nations, many of their key players were gone or retiring, meaning that they spent the next number of years struggling and it is only recently that they have started to compete again.

If it was instead a case of promotion/relegation playoffs between the bottom 6 Nations team and the top ENC team, it would be a very fair way of deciding which team should be best positioned to compete with the rest during the following season, and it would be based on merit. They have added this type of setup to the AIL over the past few years and I personally think it's the best way of rewarding the superior team. If they win & go up, great. If not, then at least they had the opportunity and can have no complaints

ArmaniJeanss

ormond lad wrote: »

No. Italy had beaten Ireland 3 times in a row before getting into the 6Ns. Italy in the late 90s beat France, Ireland and Scotland prior to getting into 6Nations have any of the countries you think should be allowed join the 6Ns done that?

I'd have thought the disgraceful unwillingness of Ireland to play full test matches against non-6N European opposition these days is a fairly important factor in why none of them have been able to get a run of victories against us like 1990s Italy. It makes it really really difficult for them to beat us!

its_phil

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd have thought the disgraceful unwillingness of Ireland to play full test matches against non-6N European opposition these days is a fairly important factor in why none of them have been able to get a run of victories against us like 1990s Italy. It makes it really really difficult for them to beat us!

It was a disgrace against Fiji but it happened once. We played Canada and the US for caps, so your theory is complete hyperbole.

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd have thought the disgraceful unwillingness of Ireland to play full test matches against non-6N European opposition these days is a fairly important factor in why none of them have been able to get a run of victories against us like 1990s Italy. It makes it really really difficult for them to beat us!

its_phil wrote: »

It was a disgrace against Fiji but it happened once. We played Canada and the US for caps, so your theory is complete hyperbole.

I did say non-6N European opposition, so the recent games against USA and Canada don't fit that obviously.

Have we had many test matches (excluding WC matches) against such opposition in the last 10 years? They were a relatively common occurrence back in the 90s as signified by Italy beating us 3 times (and beating France/Scotland also and losing on other occasions).

I just think its mealy mouthed by posters to say these second tier European teams don't deserve a playoff spot because they aren't beating us, when they can't actually beat us as we don't play against them.

pickarooney

We're so obsessed with being beaten by NZ every year when we could be playing against so many developing sides.

tolosenc

Podge_irl wrote: »

Italy beat Ireland a couple times before being admitted to the 6N.

I think it was also a case of Italy thoroughly trouncing everyone in their tier for years. They were much too good for division 2, but are only now beginning to hold their own in division 1.

Compare that to now, there isn't really a team that demolishes everyone else. If Georgia had the backs to match their forwards, then they'd be in with a shout, IMO.

I think there needs to be a policy of 6N teams playing ENC teams in tests in summer/autumn, and when such time comes that the ENC teams can put a few wins together, then we should look at promotion/relegation playoffs.