a bit of help. :)

ordinary farmer

guys ive being thinking of putting up a 2 bay and creep slatted house. im not going for grants etc. just my own money. my brother has a 12 tonn digger and will be doing all the ground work. im thinking of buying a precast tank and just dropping it in. im a qualified welder myself so ill be doing alot of the welding etc.. so basically im just looking for what size tank would i need and a basic break down of cost for the build taking into mind our own digger and doing some (not all the steel work)
Thanks in advance

Justjens

A rough breakdown of costs I had when building my 2 bay x 29' slatted shed with straw bed, with 38'x10'.6"x7' deep tank, (I have a short winter!).

My advice is to build your own tank, precast are expensive and you'll need a crane.

Dig out and backfill €800
Steel for tank €1100 + you can tie it yourself
14 cubic metres of concrete each for floor and walls (9") of tank
Helped the guys with the tank and it cost me approx €1000 in labour and snap ties
Galv. shed with canopy and door €8000 inc vat erected
11' 6" slats, get a good 'bite' on a 9" wall
Elec installation €950 inc
Stone €1000
Barriers (need locking to keep in calves), drinker and gates (2nd hand) €1200+
Foundations, walls, floor and feed passage 18 and 10 cubic metres concrete each (wall was 9' high due to ground level)
Labour and ties for above ground approx €800, again I helped
Misc bits, pipes, bolts, rebar, hire of tools etc €400

The floor is 10" lower than the slats, pipes are cut into the top of the tank and through the bench for drainage, benches are kept to 12". Still have a bit of tidying up to do, connect down pipes up to a land drain behind the shed. Remove the subsoil and topsoil that is out of view behind the shed.

I have my own rubber tyre digger and the final cost was €20,000 after vat reclaim.

Hope this helps, you're more than welcome to view but it's a bit of a journey to Limerick.....




It was a bit breezy here today!!

Marooned75

Seen a precast tank in the journal a fewweeks back in the building section.carlow precast makes them come in 2 halves top and bottom parts.The total cost was 5,600 but i cant remember was that for all work done or price of tank.think the man building it got a neighbour to do digging works.

lakill Farm

Marooned75 wrote: »

Seen a precast tank in the journal a fewweeks back in the building section.carlow precast makes them come in 2 halves top and bottom parts.The total cost was 5,600 but i cant remember was that for all work done or price of tank.think the man building it got a neighbour to do digging works.

Ye it looked a fair job that tank. Did the price include the crane? it seemed to have. Farmer had to have the hole dug though.

Anyone building a block tank and plastering it? im going to look at a few soon. range in age from 4 year old to 20 year old.

reilig

lakill Farm wrote: »

Anyone building a block tank and plastering it? im going to look at a few soon. range in age from 4 year old to 20 year old.

A neighbour who is a builder built a block tank for his next door neighbour, an elderly lady with 5 cows. Tank is 20 x 10 and 6ft deep. They built it with 12 inch blocks on the flat - the same size ones that go into a house foundation. They plastered it on the inside with a scratch coat and a finish coat and they bought some type of expensive stuff to mix with the mortar to make it waterproof. Its up and running 3 or 4 years now and never a bother with it.

I think you can buy interlocking blocks - quinns did them in the past, but I don't know if they still do them?

lakill Farm

reilig wrote: »

A neighbour who is a builder built a block tank for his next door neighbour, an elderly lady with 5 cows. Tank is 20 x 10 and 6ft deep. They built it with 12 inch blocks on the flat - the same size ones that go into a house foundation. They plastered it on the inside with a scratch coat and a finish coat and they bought some type of expensive stuff to mix with the mortar to make it waterproof. Its up and running 3 or 4 years now and never a bother with it.

I think you can buy interlocking blocks - quinns did them in the past, but I don't know if they still do them?

I was working it out and reckon i could put in a 70ft x 12ft x 8ft tank for under €2.5k (excl vat)plus slats that was using 6" block on its flat.

Didnt even know there was a 12" solid block

Juniorhurler

70' tank will take €1500 concrete alone in the floor without steel. I would put a dividing wall in that length of tank if using blocks to resist lateral pressure from the backfilling.

I have a price of €2000 plus vat off a contractor for digging out and building a 73'x12'6"x8' tank. At that price blocks won't pay I reckon. I'll start in 2-3 weeks.

td5man

lakill Farm wrote: »

Didnt even know there was a 12" solid block

You will by the time youre finished with them!!

Dunedin

Justjens wrote: »

14 cubic metres of concrete each for floor and walls (9") of tank


Foundations, walls, floor and feed passage 18 and 10 cubic metres concrete each (wall was 9' high due to ground level)

sorry for hijacking the thread a bit but i am planning an identical shed this summer.


Just to clarify re the amount of concrete you used – is it……..



14 + 18 +10 = total 32 metre’s?

lakill Farm

td5man wrote: »

You will by the time youre finished with them!!

I wount be building them. I have fairy washing up liquid hands

It i cant do the job with a mouse or a joystick it doesnt be done
Im messing . in the dictionary it says Hardship = Lakill farm. If there is a way of doing it myself i do it. But blocks no . Id make concrete all day but i never layed blocks. I guess they cant be that bad.

hugo29

lakill Farm wrote: »

I was working it out and reckon i could put in a 70ft x 12ft x 8ft tank for under €2.5k (excl vat)plus slats that was using 6" block on its flat.

Didnt even know there was a 12" solid block

12 inch are often referred to as foundation blocks, they cost more with less on a pallet

also if using 6 inch or 4 inch on flat be careful as to the strength of block you are getting, they come in 3 grades, 5kn/m, 7kn/m and 10kn/m. The 10kn is the stronger and more costly. 7KN is generally used in foundations with 5kn in caviy walls

you can also get hollow blocks and you can fill the pods with lean mix concrete

lakill Farm

Juniorhurler wrote: »

70' tank will take €1500 concrete alone in the floor without steel. I would put a dividing wall in that length of tank if using blocks to resist lateral pressure from the backfilling.

I have a price of €2000 plus vat off a contractor for digging out and building a 73'x12'6"x8' tank. At that price blocks won't pay I reckon. I'll start in 2-3 weeks.

Is that €3500 so to dig, pour floor and walls?


My workings
Blocks (70ft x 12ft x 8ft) is 1800 blocks or €1350 €1,190 net

Floor (76x x 16ft) x 6" of concrete is 55m of concrete x €25 = €1,375 €1120 net

Diesel for mini digger on dig out €25
Diesel for tractor and trailer on dig out €25

Diesel for mini digger on floor poor €25
Diesel for tractor and pan mixer € 35

Blocks €1,190
Floor €1,120
Diesel €110

€2,420.

Timmaay

lakill Farm wrote: »

Ye it looked a fair job that tank. Did the price include the crane? it seemed to have. Farmer had to have the hole dug though.

We got a tank put in by Carlow precast afew years back, 4 slats long, holds something in around the 10,000gls. The lorry it arrived on had a crane, and could lift it into place grand, so no need to bring in a separate crane. The lorry driver did need the digger (which was probably a 16ton digger) to anchor down the front of the lorry, he said it would definitely tip otherwise! It did the job fine though!

Juniorhurler

Fairly sure you won't make anything near 35N concrete for €25 a metre. The gravel would cost near that never mind the cement. A lorry load of 25N takes 2.5 tonnes iirc. 300 kilos per metre.

Timmaay

I think you's would be stone mad to use blocks, too much of a risk of the tank leaking! A tank should be a job for life, do it right in the 1st place and don't be back messing around in 5/10yrs time!

Muckit

justjens.... when you say 'bench', do you mean the concrete section between the slat and the barrier? Never heard that term used before

Dinky shed by the way. tasty job. Cheers for posting pics.

reilig

Timmaay wrote: »

I think you's would be stone mad to use blocks, too much of a risk of the tank leaking! A tank should be a job for life, do it right in the 1st place and don't be back messing around in 5/10yrs time!

I have to agree. It would be fine for something which was 1 bay in size, but 70ft long is 5 bays. I wouldn't risk all that money in blocks and labour. Big tanks are poured and have reinforcing steel for a reason. Cut back on the steel a bit if you need to, but the pressure of backfill on the external walls of that size could cause a small or a big crack and your tank is pretty useless.

lakill Farm

reilig wrote: »

I have to agree. It would be fine for something which was 1 bay in size, but 70ft long is 5 bays. I wouldn't risk all that money in blocks and labour. Big tanks are poured and have reinforcing steel for a reason. Cut back on the steel a bit if you need to, but the pressure of backfill on the external walls of that size could cause a small or a big crack and your tank is pretty useless.

ye it would be 4 bay long with 6ft outside for agitation point.

I did say i was looking into the idea . There is a chance i might put in half the shed as slats and 1/2 as dry bedded area. or indeed 3 bays slatted and 1/4 dry.

Anyway it does he hard to know.

hugo29

reilig wrote: »

I have to agree. It would be fine for something which was 1 bay in size, but 70ft long is 5 bays. I wouldn't risk all that money in blocks and labour. Big tanks are poured and have reinforcing steel for a reason. Cut back on the steel a bit if you need to, but the pressure of backfill on the external walls of that size could cause a small or a big crack and your tank is pretty useless.

not only the pressure of backfill but the pressure outwards of slurry in a full tank, a Reinforced concrete tank is like a big ring beam and is all tied together

blockwork will want to pull in opposite directions and you could end up with a lot of cracking, you are also bolting your steel to the top of the block walls, what happens to the steel if the walls move, you will also need to build piers under each holding down plate

as a rule of thumb a block wall will retain in height up to a max of 3 times its thickness

as the lads have said if it was me i would use RC walls

td5man

hugo29 wrote: »

12 inch are often referred to as foundation blocks, aka widow makers

Justjens

Dunedin wrote: »

sorry for hijacking the thread a bit but i am planning an identical shed this summer.


Just to clarify re the amount of concrete you used – is it……..



14 + 18 +10 = total 32 metre’s?

Unfortunately not!! 28 metres in the tank alone (€1870+ at €67/metre, and don't forget the conveyor, €50+ a load). 18 in foundations and walls above ground, but then they were 9' high over 45' and 10 metres to finish floors, feed passage and benches (!!). Total of 56 metres.

Muckit, coined the phrase because I didn't know what else to call it


Blocks?:eek: Not for me...... Tank dug on Monday, steel and floor in on Tuesday, pans up and filled on Wednesday, trailer loaded with pans and leaving the yard by lunch Thursday.

Pharaoh1

Justjens wrote: »

A rough breakdown of costs I had when building my 2 bay x 29' slatted shed with straw bed, with 38'x10'.6"x7' deep tank, (I have a short winter!).

My advice is to build your own tank, precast are expensive and you'll need a crane.

Dig out and backfill €800
Steel for tank €1100 + you can tie it yourself
14 cubic metres of concrete each for floor and walls (9") of tank
Helped the guys with the tank and it cost me approx €1000 in labour and snap ties
Galv. shed with canopy and door €8000 inc vat erected
11' 6" slats, get a good 'bite' on a 9" wall
Elec installation €950 inc
Stone €1000
Barriers (need locking to keep in calves), drinker and gates (2nd hand) €1200+
Foundations, walls, floor and feed passage 18 and 10 cubic metres concrete each (wall was 9' high due to ground level)
Labour and ties for above ground approx €800, again I helped
Misc bits, pipes, bolts, rebar, hire of tools etc €400

The floor is 10" lower than the slats, pipes are cut into the top of the tank and through the bench for drainage, benches are kept to 12". Still have a bit of tidying up to do, connect down pipes up to a land drain behind the shed. Remove the subsoil and topsoil that is out of view behind the shed.

I have my own rubber tyre digger and the final cost was €20,000 after vat reclaim.

Hope this helps, you're more than welcome to view but it's a bit of a journey to Limerick.....




It was a bit breezy here today!!

That's a lovely shed and would be ideal for myself if I wanted to change from drystock summer grazing to keeping cattle all year round.
The only thing is that I would be starting from a completely green field site so I would need to add the cost of a hard core area for tractor access to the shed, feeding and for storing silage bales. Also somewhere to store straw bales and dung too I suppose. Getting water and power to it would involve a fair bit of extra cost given the distance involved.

I have thought about it and while it would be great to have I just can't see how it would pay for itself over the next few years. Not having the cash I couldn't justify borrowing the money (even if the bank would give it to me)
If it cost me say 25k to build and I housed 25 stores over each winter they would have to generate a clear profit of 200 euro for the winter period in order to pay off just the capital in 5 years. Halve that profit and it would take probably 13 or 14 years to pay for itself including interest.
Even those profit figures are probably unrealistic at the current time I mean are there any winter finishers out there that are generating anything like that in clear profit?
I suppose if I was full time or had a big SFP or was committed to keeping suckler cows and needed the accomodation I might think differently.

hugo29

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

That's a lovely shed and would be ideal for myself if I wanted to change from drystock summer grazing to keeping cattle all year round.
The only thing is that I would be starting from a completely green field site so I would need to add the cost of a hard core area for tractor access to the shed, feeding and for storing silage bales. Also somewhere to store straw bales and dung too I suppose. Getting water and power to it would involve a fair bit of extra cost given the distance involved.

I have thought about it and while it would be great to have I just can't see how it would pay for itself over the next few years. Not having the cash I couldn't justify borrowing the money (even if the bank would give it to me)
If it cost me say 25k to build and I housed 25 stores over each winter they would have to generate a clear profit of 200 euro for the winter period in order to pay off just the capital in 5 years. Halve that profit and it would take probably 13 or 14 years to pay for itself including interest.
Even those profit figures are probably unrealistic at the current time I mean are there any winter finishers out there that are generating anything like that in clear profit?
I suppose if I was full time or had a big SFP or was committed to keeping suckler cows and needed the accomodation I might think differently.

i dont know its a hard one to call, from what I see on the ground and talking to people who are building the sheds you would want to allow €10k per bay to construct.

i currently rent a 4 bay shed which costs me 2k per annum, its actually a bit tight for space so i would need a 5 bay,

i keep asking myself am I mad and should i build and pay for my own, long term yes but its a leap of faith

Pharaoh1

hugo29 wrote: »

i dont know its a hard one to call, from what I see on the ground and talking to people who are building the sheds you would want to allow €10k per bay to construct.

i currently rent a 4 bay shed which costs me 2k per annum, its actually a bit tight for space so i would need a 5 bay,

i keep asking myself am I mad and should i build and pay for my own, long term yes but its a leap of faith

A leap of faith indeed.
I didn't even factor in the loss of income I currently receive from selling surplus grass as bales and all the extra hours work I would end up doing over the winter. Ok so I don't mind really the extra work part of it but still it should be considered. There would be a benefit in having a supply of slurry but I can get pig slurry locally for free so it wouldn't be a huge benefit.

It's just that in my full time business I wouldn't dream of spending that kind of money unless I could see a clear and measurable return. Buying something because it would "be handy to have" would not be considered.

Juniorhurler

hugo29 wrote: »

i dont know its a hard one to call, from what I see on the ground and talking to people who are building the sheds you would want to allow €10k per bay to construct.

i currently rent a 4 bay shed which costs me 2k per annum, its actually a bit tight for space so i would need a 5 bay,

i keep asking myself am I mad and should i build and pay for my own, long term yes but its a leap of faith

The 10K per bay is frightening me now. I am about to attack a 4 bay with a war chest of about half of that. I know it won't get finished this year but I'll do a little more next year.

ABlur

Dont forget you can claim the cost of a shed as a capital allowance against tax @ 15% pa. A lot of farming investments dont always make commercial sense but there maybe a way to lessen the blow.

1chippy

lakill Farm wrote: »

Is that €3500 so to dig, pour floor and walls?


My workings
Blocks (70ft x 12ft x 8ft) is 1800 blocks or €1350 €1,190 net

Floor (76x x 16ft) x 6" of concrete is 55m of concrete x €25 = €1,375 €1120 net

Diesel for mini digger on dig out €25
Diesel for tractor and trailer on dig out €25

Diesel for mini digger on floor poor €25
Diesel for tractor and pan mixer € 35

Blocks €1,190
Floor €1,120
Diesel €110

Sand, cement,waterproofer, hardcore base, whacker rental a bare minimum of at least fibre through the concrete or a few sheets of a393 mesh in the floor, the hassle of using a mini digger to dig a tank and a pan mixer to mix concrete. and then all to stick good slats and a shed on top of something that just never will be right.
for the cost diferential on the overall project would you not be better doing it once and doing it right.

ordinary farmer

Justjens wrote: »

A rough breakdown of costs I had when building my 2 bay x 29' slatted shed with straw bed, with 38'x10'.6"x7' deep tank, (I have a short winter!).

My advice is to build your own tank, precast are expensive and you'll need a crane.

Dig out and backfill €800
Steel for tank €1100 + you can tie it yourself
14 cubic metres of concrete each for floor and walls (9") of tank
Helped the guys with the tank and it cost me approx €1000 in labour and snap ties
Galv. shed with canopy and door €8000 inc vat erected
11' 6" slats, get a good 'bite' on a 9" wall
Elec installation €950 inc
Stone €1000
Barriers (need locking to keep in calves), drinker and gates (2nd hand) €1200+
Foundations, walls, floor and feed passage 18 and 10 cubic metres concrete each (wall was 9' high due to ground level)
Labour and ties for above ground approx €800, again I helped
Misc bits, pipes, bolts, rebar, hire of tools etc €400

The floor is 10" lower than the slats, pipes are cut into the top of the tank and through the bench for drainage, benches are kept to 12". Still have a bit of tidying up to do, connect down pipes up to a land drain behind the shed. Remove the subsoil and topsoil that is out of view behind the shed.

I have my own rubber tyre digger and the final cost was €20,000 after vat reclaim.

Hope this helps, you're more than welcome to view but it's a bit of a journey to Limerick.....




It was a bit breezy here today!!

what a reply exactly the sort of shed i had in mind, good space at the back for crush or calving pen etc. the barriers seem very handy havent seen them around my area. thank very much on another note i woudnt dream of blocking the tank fellow farmers in the are one fairly recent blocked his tank very costly. tank fell in half way throught build and is leaking now :rolleyes: the digger work will be done our selfs. and will probly have a go at making the barriers. and see where it goes from there

Thanks again

just do it

hugo29 wrote: »

i dont know its a hard one to call, from what I see on the ground and talking to people who are building the sheds you would want to allow €10k per bay to construct.

i currently rent a 4 bay shed which costs me 2k per annum, its actually a bit tight for space so i would need a 5 bay,

i keep asking myself am I mad and should i build and pay for my own, long term yes but its a leap of faith

Loan Calculator Results

Monthly repayment: €375.84
Loan amount:€40,000
Interest rate:8%
Term:15 years
Cost of Credit:€27,651.63


National Consumer Agency Loan Calculator

So looking at this a bank loan over 15yrs to pay for the shed at current historically low interest rates will cost €4,500p.a. Renting at €2k pa is a no brainer and of course the €2k is a legitimate expense every year.

hugo29

just do it wrote: »

Loan Calculator Results

Monthly repayment: €375.84
Loan amount:€40,000
Interest rate:8%
Term:15 years
Cost of Credit:€27,651.63


National Consumer Agency Loan Calculator

So looking at this a bank loan over 15yrs to pay for the shed at current historically low interest rates will cost €4,500p.a. Renting at €2k pa is a no brainer and of course the €2k is a legitimate expense every year.

Yes when you look at just the figures but at least you are paying for something, renting is just paying another mans loan, op

ABlur

just do it wrote: »

Loan Calculator Results

Monthly repayment: €375.84
Loan amount:€40,000
Interest rate:8%
Term:15 years
Cost of Credit:€27,651.63


National Consumer Agency Loan Calculator

So looking at this a bank loan over 15yrs to pay for the shed at current historically low interest rates will cost €4,500p.a. Renting at €2k pa is a no brainer and of course the €2k is a legitimate expense every year.

Is the cost of credit correct? its almost as much as the original loan value

mf240

ABlur wrote: »

Is the cost of credit correct? its almost as much as the original loan value

At 8% the interest in the first year would be 3200 and would decline as the balance declines up to year 15 so would be right.

Very long term though for a shed load.

1chippy

most banks wouldnt give a 40k loan over 15 years.
setting it at 60 months or 5years
it works out at 844.40 per month
e50,664

thats 10,664 interest.

At 2k per annum that takes 25 years to pay, however when inflation and with fluctuations in farming prices i would be guessing here but would reckon you would have the equivalent shed paid off in 15 years and still have an asset.