Size of Secondary Schools

whiteandlight

I've just been hearing about the secondary school in gorey with 2000 students. I'm just curious to hear others opinions on schools of this size.

Personally I think it is far too large a school for students of this age. My opinion would be that two schools of 1000 pupils (still very large schools) would be better environments for teenagers.

I think back to my own time in secondary school and how I developed and battled my shyness particularly through extra curricular areas. The number of students who can get a lead in the school show, be a prefect, sit on the student council, be on the first Gaelic team etc is halved when all 2000 students are in one school.

There would be at least 300 students in each year group, no way you would know all your fellow students from your year. I would imagine it leads to students staying in similar groups of friends in the transition from primary school.

The staff would not know all students, even as they pass through their hands it would be extremely difficult to get to know even a quarter of the student population. I know they have two staff rooms so even knowing all of the staff would be difficult. The informal discussions that take place among teachers about students are so important I find for the small things, johns doing badly in my class-oh he's not doing well in your either? Have you found a reason etc etc
I would really miss these if I didn't know/see all the staff regularly.

I understand that presumably it is cheaper to run and plan in terms of teacher allocations etc and I am told it is an excellent school, I'm just not sure how they deal with the sheer size

RealJohn

Have to agree with all of that. 2000 students sounds like a ridiculously high number. I'm no expert on school planning but I think that there ought to be an upper limit on the number of students in any school and even at that, 1000 as an upper limit still seems very high.

I presume the problem with that is, as you've said in this case, the large school has a good reputation then however the new school is established, it will be seen as the weaker school and parents won't want to send their children there anyway (or if they tried to avoid this by accepting primarily high achieving students, it could have the effect that the old school is stigmatised. Either way, not an attractive situation).

I might be a little biased of course as all the schools I've worked in have been fairly small and the school I attended as a student wasn't huge either (about five or six hundred students I'd estimate) so I have no experience of such a big school but I'd have thought it'd be pretty easy to get lost in the crowd in a situation like that.

spurious

It's also, at the other end of the scale, quite a money pit to have three or more second level schools all at the 250-400 pupil mark in one town. In those cases, one big school would seem a much more sensible idea, mysteriously overlooked by An Bord Snip.

Have to disagree with all of that, since I'm a teacher in that school and a past student.:)
Firstly, we don't have 2000 students, there's about 1500 in the school at the moment, maybe even a little bit less. One year we accepted 300 students into first year but that was at the request of the Dept and on the promise that another secondary school would open in Gorey. That opened two years ago and we now have a cap of 240 for incoming first years.
Regarding the point that students stay in their primary school groups, the opposite is usually true. There are about 8 or 9 first year class tutor classes, and with so many feeder schools there is a great mix of students from town schools and country schools in each class. I'd imagine it's the opposite in smaller schools, with primary school friends ending up in the same classes for secondary school and never mixing with others.
We don't have two staffrooms either, just the one, and a staff study for prep work if you manage to get a desk in there at the start of the year. There's a great sense of collegiality in the staffroom (maybe that comes from nearly having to sit on each others knee for a seat! ) and there's never any problem catching up with other students on how a student is doing. Should we have a concern about a student, all the teachers of that student are given a progress report to fill in about them, to give a class tutor or year head a rounded picture.
I think the fact that we have such a big school is great for students of all kinds and with all types of interests since we have a huge range of after school activities, such as GAA, Rugby, Equestrian, Golf, choirs, musicals, arts concerts etc, not to mention a massive choice of subjects including Japanese, German, French, Spanish, Economics, Business, Accounting, Music, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Ag Science, Construction, Metalwork, Technology etc. I suppose the difference with our school and a smaller school is that there's always other students like you, whether you are into sports or music or drama or anime or whatever interests you academically. Everyone can find their own niche where they are comfortable.

whiteandlight

spurious wrote: »

It's also, at the other end of the scale, quite a money pit to have three or more second level schools all at the 250-400 pupil mark in one town. In those cases, one big school would seem a much more sensible idea, mysteriously overlooked by An Bord Snip.

I get the idea of economy, that's why I went with 1000, surely that would get the economy of scale without 2000 in the school?

Maynooth is going to be interesting, there is a new 1000pupil going in alongside the current 1000pupil school. They will be independent schools but on the same campus (new build) one school moving to it, the other being established on it.

Miss Lockhart

It's an interesting issue alright.

Personally, I feel economy of scale is very important considering limited budgets, but this needs to be balanced against what is in the best interest of students. I'd be interested in any research into school size.

The school I attended and the school I teach in (secondary) areboth around the 700 - 800 mark. Everybody knows everybody else and I don't think there's any danger in students getting lost in the crowd, so I feel there is scope for increasing size to gain the benefits of subject choice and facilities. Somewhere around the 1000 - 1200 mark would seem to be easily manageable.

whiteandlight

Great to hear from you newbie85. It's nice to hear feedback from the horses mouth so to speak!

I agree miss Lockhart, I've been to a school between 6-7 and taught in ones from 5-8. 800 is a nice number but you could expand on it a bit.

StillWaters

I almost sure I read somewhere that the optimum number for a secondary school is 1000, allows for subject choice, extra curricular activities etc, and is not too large.

doc_17

I'd rather teach in a school with 240 as I do now rather than teach in a school almost 10 times as big

Miss Lockhart

doc_17 wrote: »

I'd rather teach in a school with 240 as I do now rather than teach in a school almost 10 times as big

Can I ask why? What about a school four times as big?

Also, although I'm sure we would all have our preferences, I think the impact on students, not on teachers, should be the most important deciding factor.

doc_17

I like the idea of school being a community. I know all the staff, nearly all of the students and I am aware of most things that happen in the school. A small school like mine has downsides in terms of subject choice and playing much larger schools at sprouts where we are at a disadvantage.

I'm not saying a large school can't be a community. In our place, which is the only school in the local, rural, isolated area, all the kids know each other.

800 would be ok but I think 2000 is massive. Like how many deputy principals and A post holders are there?