petition against junior doctors insane hours

mari2222

I just signed the petition to help junior doctors conditions of work


it was at
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/minister-for-health-dr-james-reilly-24-hours-is-enough

and the organisers are looking for more signatures if anybody wants to help

tony81

They do get paid a lot though... I find it hard to have sympathy for someone on €65k. Yes they're highly qualified but imagine the hours a regular joe would have to put in to earn that. There are other career options for these doctors that would not require such long hours. Science teacher perhaps - 9 to 4, monday to friday, €30k.

Maggiesims

I think everyone in the medical profession do a brilliant job, its not an easy job and there are late unsocial hours and days (bank holidays, weekend etc). But these people knew what was expected of them when they signed up to become a doctor, they knew what the pay was and they knew the conditions ie hrs. They were never lured into the profession under false promises. I don't see why they are complaining now and expect public support.

The girl in centra on the deli counter also does a fantastic job, she is friendly and good at her job. She works an extra half hr nearly every day because of customers coming in late when she is trying to clean up but this is the nature of her job and unfortunately she doesn't get paid as its expected of her. Nobody listens to her complaints or wants to get a petition started because she is a shop worker. Is she any less important????

I am sick of listening to the complaints of doctors and nurses long hours bad pay (or so they think). Nurses are complaining about lower pay structures, if ye are not happy with these go elsewhere or get a job elsewhere but its time ye came off yer high horse when 15% of the country are unemployed

tony81

+1
Shop workers get €8.65 an hour, no overtime, no sick pay, no pensions.. The sense of entitlement of some people is sickening.

The problem with the system is there are people at the top on the huge salaries who are putting the squeeze on the people at the bottom in the form of longer hours and less pay. I think the solution is more modest salaries all round with a better work-life balance. But the doctors still want their big bucks and that's why they're working those hours. The love of money more than anything.

Vorsprung

tony81 wrote: »

+1
Shop workers get €8.65 an hour, no overtime, no sick pay, no pensions.. The sense of entitlement of some people is sickening.

The problem with the system is there are people at the top on the huge salaries who are putting the squeeze on the people at the bottom in the form of longer hours and less pay. I think the solution is more modest salaries all round with a better work-life balance. But the doctors still want their big bucks and that's why they're working those hours. The love of money more than anything.

You think that people enjoy working 36 hours with no more than a couple of hours sleep?

My record was 93 hours in one week, and 42 hours straight with 2 hours sleep. You think I did it for the money?!

Seaneh

tony81 wrote: »

They do get paid a lot though... I find it hard to have sympathy for someone on €65k.

You think junior doctors are on 65k a year?

Are you mental?

kirving

What?!

Do you really want a doctor who has been awake for the best part of two days being in charge of your care if you're brought to hospital after a car accident, for example? Have you ever stayed up very late doig college work or something? I can barely string a sentence together after 2am, nevermind make a life or death decision.

Money cannot make you think straight after such long hours, and doesn't compensate for such horrendous hours.

Seaneh

tony81 wrote: »

+1
Shop workers get €8.65 an hour, no overtime, no sick pay, no pensions.. The sense of entitlement of some people is sickening.

The problem with the system is there are people at the top on the huge salaries who are putting the squeeze on the people at the bottom in the form of longer hours and less pay. I think the solution is more modest salaries all round with a better work-life balance. But the doctors still want their big bucks and that's why they're working those hours. The love of money more than anything.

Yes, Junior doctors WANT to work 36 hour shifts, they WANT to, that's why they are protesting AGAINST it. It's all a clever rouse and they are just in it for the money.

tony81

Vorsprung wrote: »

You think that people enjoy working 36 hours with no more than a couple of hours sleep?

My record was 93 hours in one week, and 42 hours straight with 2 hours sleep. You think I did it for the money?!

Well, perhaps you'd have sabotaged your career if you didn't do it. All I mean is there are much bigger injustices in society. System is rotten from the top down, and junior doctors know if they play by the rules they won't be at the bottom for long.

Fear_an_tarbh

tony81 wrote: »

They do get paid a lot though... I find it hard to have sympathy for someone on €65k. Yes they're highly qualified but imagine the hours a regular joe would have to put in to earn that. There are other career options for these doctors that would not require such long hours. Science teacher perhaps - 9 to 4, monday to friday, €30k.

:rolleyes:
Science teacher - 8 - 5.30, Monday to Friday, 5/6 hours over weekend, €27k.
Holidays are nice though:)

Vorsprung

tony81 wrote: »

Well, perhaps you'd have sabotaged your career if you didn't do it. All I mean is there are much bigger injustices in society. System is rotten from the top down, and junior doctors know if they play by the rules they won't be at the bottom for long.

Bigger injustices?

Right so junior doctors (a strange term by the way, doctors can be 5-10 years out and still be called junior doctors, despite being ridiculously experienced) should just roll over until there's world peace and a cure for cancer and AIDS before highlighting this issue?

tony81

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Science teacher - 8 - 5.30, Monday to Friday, 5/6 hours over weekend, €27k.
Holidays are nice though:)

8 til 5.30, pull the other one. Does that include eating your breakfast and the drive to work?

tony81

Vorsprung wrote: »

Bigger injustices?

Right so junior doctors (a strange term by the way, doctors can be 5-10 years out and still be called junior doctors, despite being ridiculously experienced) should just roll over until there's world peace and a cure for cancer and AIDS before highlighting this issue?

It's interesting you thought i was referring to a cure for cancer. Show's where your lofty thoughts are... I meant the most vulnerable low-paid workers with a crappy min wage hourly rate, few guaranteed hours, certainly not a monthly salary, and when their employer goes belly up the employee is jobless and old enough to be unemployable.

Fear_an_tarbh

tony81 wrote: »

8 til 5.30, pull the other one. Does that include eating your breakfast and the drive to work?

No.

I'm on site till 5.30 most evenings, if its a P/T meeting or other meeting it could be 7.00.
When did you think the 20 hours or so each week of planning/correcting/managing extra-curricular gets done?!
Anyway, this is off-topic. Most junior doctors emigrate where they're not expected to do 30+ hours of unpaid overtime and get paid better for the time they do.

Maggiesims

Yes there are injustices in all jobs. If junior doctors work under bad conditions well then protest yourselves don't try to drag the public into it. We pay our good money for health insurance and we expect a good service and yes its up to doctors to provide it. If ye are unable to get proper working conditions for yourselves we don't have much hope of a good service from ye.

Nobody begs ye to work as doctors and if ye don't feel up to the job then leave, its a choice ye have, if ye are not happy ye always have the option to leave.

Just because we will all need to see a doctor ye feel we all should help ye.

drkpower

Maggiesims wrote: »

But these people knew what was expected of them when they signed up to become a doctor, they knew what the pay was and they knew the conditions ie hrs. They were never lured into the profession under false promises. I don't see why they are complaining now and expect public support.

Well they were actually; have you heard of the EWTD? Google it, perhaps.

But in any case, the oft-repeated argument that 'you knew what you were getting into' is a nonsense which could be used to justify' almost any injustice.

Women going into the public service in the 70s who had to quit on getting married; hey, you knew what you were getting into.

Outrageously outdated safety procedures in the construction and other industries for most of the last century; hey, you knew what you were getting into.

And so on....

Vorsprung

tony81 wrote: »

It's interesting you thought i was referring to a cure for cancer. Show's where your lofty thoughts are... I meant the most vulnerable low-paid workers with a crappy min wage hourly rate, few guaranteed hours, certainly not a monthly salary, and when their employer goes belly up the employee is jobless and old enough to be unemployable.

Did you raise this point when other groups of workers had disputes with their employers, or do you just have something against doctors?

Anyway, we're getting off topic here.

Vorsprung

Maggiesims wrote: »

Yes there are injustices in all jobs. If junior doctors work under bad conditions well then protest yourselves don't try to drag the public into it. We pay our good money for health insurance and we expect a good service and yes its up to doctors to provide it. If ye are unable to get proper working conditions for yourselves we don't have much hope of a good service from ye.

Not sure where health insurance comes into it - there are very, very few junior doctors working in the private health system. Some semi private patients are treated in public hospital beds, but no junior doctor will treat a patient on the basis of their insurance status; everybody deserves a good service.

Nobody begs ye to work as doctors and if ye don't feel up to the job then leave, its a choice ye have, if ye are not happy ye always have the option to leave.

Just because we will all need to see a doctor ye feel we all should help ye.

You might well get your wish because many people are leaving Ireland because of the working conditions!

drkpower

Maggiesims wrote: »

Yes there are injustices in all jobs. If junior doctors work under bad conditions well then protest yourselves don't try to drag the public into it.

The public are already dragged into it. They receive a service which is, at times, dangerous by virtue of excessive hours.

If you dont care about being on the end of such a bad service, then dont complain; but if you are ever on the end of a medical error caused or contributed to by the excessive hours done by your treating doctors, then we dont expect to see you complaining/suing.

Deal?

Maggiesims

Vorsprung its not my wish for people to leave the country, but everyone has choices

spurious

If they made it compulsory for all Irish trained (and paid for by the State) doctors to commit to a year or two working within the Irish system, before they go off to work elsewhere, would this ease the hours situation for junior doctors at all?

I know nothing about how hospitals work, just trying to think of a way people would get relevant experience but without the crazy and dangerous hours.

Vorsprung

Maggiesims wrote: »

Vorsprung its not my wish for people to leave the country, but everyone has choices

Who do you think should fill those jobs if everyone leaves?

Also, would you be happy if someone who had been awake for 29 hours was making important health decisions about you or a relative?

There are plenty of studies to show that these hours impair decision making. Being awake for 17 hours has the same effect on a person's driving as having a blood alcohol level of 0.05% - that's the legal limit here.

Vorsprung

spurious wrote: »

If they made it compulsory for all Irish trained (and paid for by the State) doctors to commit to a year or two working within the Irish system, before they go off to work elsewhere, would this ease the hours situation for junior doctors at all?

I know nothing about how hospitals work, just trying to think of a way people would get relevant experience but without the crazy and dangerous hours.

I've heard this point from people before. Nearly all do their intern year in Irish hospitals.

If you're going to make it compulsory for doctors, why not make it compulsory for others who've been trained at the public's expense? Software developers, engineers, nurses?

spurious

Vorsprung wrote: »

I've heard this point from people before. Nearly all do their intern year in Irish hospitals.

If you're going to make it compulsory for doctors, why not make it compulsory for others who've been trained at the public's expense? Software developers, engineers, nurses?

Yes, I wouldn't see an issue with that. We could do with it in teaching too, stop the thousands going to the UK and elsewhere.
I suppose the bottom line is money.

Maggiesims

I know conditions are bad vorsprung i have had some bad experiences, but this is an ongoing issue for years. I am sick of listening to our terrible health system, is anyone doing anything.
My point was protest and kept protesting for better conditions, don't talk about how bad things, walk the walk, get out and protest for yourselves. Nobody deserves to continue working in these conditions and that is why I say leave if its the only option.

When junior doctors get higher up the ladder do they not provide help and talk up about the bad conditions they had or is it a matter of well we all had to do it.

Vorsprung

spurious wrote: »

Yes, I wouldn't see an issue with that. We could do with it in teaching too, stop the thousands going to the UK and elsewhere.
I suppose the bottom line is money.

How would you propose to pay for the extra posts that would need to be filled?

Also, could that be considered a barrier to the free movement of labour (isn't that one of the central pillars of the European single market?)

Deliverance XXV

The bottom line certainly is money. But if doctors do get their hours reduced then their pay must also get reduced. Maybe this would give a better opportunity to hire more and be more flexible with hours. Maybe.

Stheno

Reading an old article from 2009 in the indo, Junior doctors start on something like 35k, and it rises to 58k based on experience over time

They get overtime after 54 hours per week

Certainly not a fortune worth doing those hours for.

flynnlives

tony81 wrote: »

Well, perhaps you'd have sabotaged your career if you didn't do it. All I mean is there are much bigger injustices in society. System is rotten from the top down, and junior doctors know if they play by the rules they won't be at the bottom for long.

and what happens when a doctor who has been awake for 36 hours straight makes a mistake and someone dies?

You do know that it is illegal for truck drivers to drive for more then 9 hours.

EU law regulates the driving time of professional drivers using goods vehicles over 3.5t (including trailers) and passenger vehicles with more than 8 passenger seats.
The key requirements are that you must not drive:

• Without a break for more than 4.5 hours. After driving for 4.5 hours, a break of at least 45 minutes is mandatory. You can distribute that break over the 4.5 hours.
• For more than nine hours per day or 56 hours per week. This may be extended to 10 hours no more than twice during a week
• More than 90 hours in two consecutive weeks

There are also strict regulations regarding the average working time and the amount of rest that must be taken daily and weekly.

i dunno about you but if im in hospital i want my doctor awake and alert!

experiMental

Sorry to be off topic, but I always wondered: why are doctors forced to work such hours, if there's a possibility to create three overlapping 8.5 hour shifts per day? Or is there such a possibility at all?

Vorsprung

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

The bottom line certainly is money. But if doctors do get their hours reduced then their pay must also get reduced. Maybe this would give a better opportunity to hire more and be more flexible with hours. Maybe.

It might not you know, a lot of people don't get paid for a lot of the overtime!

SuperInfinity

It's occurred to me recently that the reason for this phenomenon is that the older medical directors and doctors want to put people off going to or finishing med-school.

There is still huge demand for med school despite it all (probably in part due to the unholy salaries some get), the older doctors who sit on the panels do not want to be drowned out by new recruits. So they have every possible incentive to bury the young doctors alive. This is the exact opposite to engineers where some fool bcomm is often running the show and has zero interest in engineering salaries since their own will never be matched against them and it's the exact opposite: it will directly cost them money to keep them high.

Then the young doctors become older and bitter, paranoid about competition, and want to make sure that any new people will have to go through everything they went through.

JustAThought

The bottom line is humanity.

Doctors shouldn't be forced into working unsafe, unsustainable & inhumane hours.

We are the first ones to run to them for help when we need it. Why not help them when they are suffering.

Truck drivers on the continent have safety structures & tacomoters installed so that they can't legally work or drive over a perscribed safe amount of hours. Yet we are happy to have doctors incoherent with overwork and lack of sleep pressurised into working catastrophic hours for us?

They have families & loved ones too.

If it was bus drivers or clerks theyd all be out on strike. Are our loved ones & our health, & our doctors not important enough to care ; or bother?

davo10

Just to give some perspective for the posters who think this is about money, the average working week of a junior, non consultant Dr is 54 hours per week, many are rostered 7am to 4pm but leave at 7pm not getting paid for the extra hours worked. During these extra hours they often have to discuss cases with consultants, follow up lab results, write up charts etc.

From a monetary point of view, a newly qualified Dr gets €30k approx, an experienced Dr up to €70 k, most get no where near this amount but taking the €65k quoted by an earlier poster as an example of overpaid medics, this would work out at €13 per hour after tax and excluding the enormous number of hours worked per year for which no payment was made. A newly qualified Dr after 6 years of study would make €8 per hour after tax for an average working week and less than minimum wage when non paid working time is taken in to consideration.
Hardly a fortune for someone who holds the life of their patients literally in their hands.


But this argument is not about money, it's patient and Dr's health. I switched over during the week to a programme in tv where a junior Dr described almost killing a patient due to exhaustion. Air traffic controllers can work no more than 4 hours at any time because of passenger safety. Infinitely more people are treated worldwide in Hospitals each day than fly in planes yet according to posters here its ok for for Drs to work 36 hours straight, making life changing medical decisions every couple of minutes.

Litigation against medical workers has risen exponentially in recent years and I bet some of the posters here criticising the Drs would not hesitate for a second to run to a solicitor if their diagnosis/medication/surgery was not perfect. Again one of the lines trotted out is "they are paid enough so they should get it right" as if what they are paid has any baring whatsoever on the way they treat their patients.

If you want Drs to work 36 hours fine, but do not complain then if a mistake is made in your treatment or the treatment of a loved one.

sock puppet

experiMental wrote: »

Sorry to be off topic, but I always wondered: why are doctors forced to work such hours, if there's a possibility to create three overlapping 8.5 hour shifts per day? Or is there such a possibility at all?

It seems to be the same in many "high paid" industries. Perhaps it's just cheaper to hire fewer people and pay them more.

Joeyjoejoe83

It is shocking reading this how people assume working in a hospital is exactly low they see it in Greys anatomy or something.
Here's the problem, James Reilly and his mates have ordered hospitals to make cuts....fair enough. He has placed this power into the consultants hands...not fair enough. Consultants are doing this by lowering salaries of junior doctors and not paying any overtime whilst increasing the workload of those employed. Working conditions are horrendous.

Here's a fun fact: I know a young Pakistani doctor who was working in a hospital in Ireland but is moving back to Pakistan as working conditions here are terrible and much better at home.

davo10

Joeyjoejoe83 wrote: »

I He has placed this power into the consultants hands...not fair enough. Consultants are doing this by lowering salaries of junior doctors and not paying any overtime whilst increasing the workload of those employed. Working conditions are horrendous.
.

I could be wrong but I do not think consultants decide wages or working hours, I think wages are set by HSE guidelines and pay scales, the Hospital managers, public servants, set the rosters.

Joeyjoejoe83

davo10 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I do not think consultants decide wages or working hours, I think wages are set by HSE guidelines and pay scales, the Hospital managers, public servants, set the rosters.

Consultants and heads of departments sign off on extra hours worked which they are avoiding to save money for departments.....don't they?! Hmm maybe I'm wrong.