Time to get tough on scumbags

KwackerJack

More murders by armed gangs shooting non/less armed Garda.

The rules of engagement are most likely different than the Army while escorting cash etc....I know from my time in Dundalk that we were told if 'it hit's the fan' forget the rules and fire!!

I clearly remember being told fire until the target drops or if a vehicle keep firing till you have to move out of its way!!

Sad thing if they were killed the guards would be hounded by 'did they need to fire' ****e that always pops up!

In my eyes its simple, if a person pulls a firearm shoot the scumbag!!

So are we going to continue to moan about arming our police force..this is not a wonderland, its not good Auld Ireland back in the day where you could leave your front door open and still keep your belongings!!

The law is the law and if you break it and get caught tough ****!!

*** Please do not mention tonight's news...keep it separate***

sfwcork

So do you think we should just fire away like a good thing?

gurramok

What's the problem? The idea of harsher punishment than we have now did not go down well with boardsies http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056864063
(Oh btw the way harsher punishment has worked in Japan)

Bowlardo

sfwcork wrote: »

So do you think we should just fire away like a good thing?

did you not read the post? the op clearly mentions if they are armed then they are in their right to shot back

RidleyRider

So you want to shoot people?

Praetorian Saighdiuir

KwackerJack wrote: »

The rules of engagement are most likely different than the Army while escorting cash etc....I know from my time in Dundalk that we were told if 'it hit's the fan' forget the rules and fire!!

I clearly remember being told fire until the target drops or if a vehicle keep firing till you have to move out of its way!!

Ha who told ya that?

KwackerJack

sfwcork wrote: »

So do you think we should just fire away like a good thing?

Did I say that?? Fire back its not rocket science!!

If you pull a firearm you have to be prepared to be shot at!

Would you not fire back to protect your life or would you stand there and be killed because its 'not right' shooting back????

Yakult

We need more cowbell, its the only solution.

sfwcork

Cops shoud fire if fired upon or in extreme levels of danger

Otherwise its just an excuse for them to fire whenever they see fit

Max Power

Kill or be killed IMO.

KwackerJack

RidleyRider wrote: »

So you want to shoot people?

No...but if i was in the position of having to return fire to protect my life or the life of another I would!

Typical Hippocratic nation..A Guard kills a man in self defense and he's a criminal...a citizen dies because a Guard does not return fire and he's condemned and should be held accountable for the death?????

What do you people want...either they up hold the law or they hide in the bushes??

Witcher

I don't think we need a thread to tell the Gardai to return fire when fired upon.

4zn76tysfajdxp

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Kill or be killed IMO.

I suspect that's what the criminals will think once the police are armed, leading to more deaths in the force.

Amirani

sfwcork wrote: »

Cops shoud fire if fired upon or in extreme levels of danger

Otherwise its just an excuse for them to fire whenever they see fit

Refusing Garda instruction to drop a firearm is fair game in my opinion. Obviously the same goes for pointing or firing at someone.

galwayrush

A dead scumbag can't harm any more.

Bipolar Joe

This argument is about as circular as it gets.

sfwcork

Half the crowd in the gardai would probably shoot themselves in the foot

Tullamore training is too kiss my arse for guns

KwackerJack

Blay wrote: »

I don't think we need a thread to tell the Gardai to return fire when fired upon.

No but the public seem to think its wrong to arm the force to protect themselves yet whinge and moan about gun crime???

Nylah Wailing Truth wrote: »

I suspect that's what the criminals will think once the police are armed, leading to more deaths in the force.

Most will think twice knowing they are facing trained armed Gardai.....At the moment they feel more superior knowing all there coming up against is CS spray and a baton

BobbyPropane

We have to be cautious here. Our Police Force is like a service. We don't want a situation like in America where cops are running around like they bloody own the place firing at everyone causing more anger.

KwackerJack

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

This argument is about as circular as it gets.

I can agree to a certain extent. But ask the criminals to get rid of their guns because the police don't have any?? See what response you get!!

If they are armed well we need to respond in the same way or just let them just do as they please!

Witcher

KwackerJack wrote: »

No but the public seem to think its wrong to arm the force to protect themselves yet whinge and moan about gun crime???

I don't recall the public being consulted on it so it's a stretch to declare the public as being against arming the Gardai. The only ones who seem dead set against it are the Garda brass themselves.

LETHAL LADY

sfwcork wrote: »

Half the crowd in the gardai would probably shoot themselves in the foot

Tullamore training is too kiss my arse for guns

Templemore.

KwackerJack

BobbyPropane wrote: »

We have to be cautious here. Our Police Force is like a service. We don't want a situation like in America where cops are running around like they bloody own the place firing at everyone causing more anger.

Our citizens do not have the same access to firearms as the Americans do so they possibly of meeting an armed man everyday are slim but the 'sure be grand' attitude has to stop!

Train our force properly with severe punishment for breaking the rules.....but for god sake let our Guards defend themselves and get home to their family's!!

meoklmrk91

That time has come and gone. For example in my housing estate where I have lived for nearly 19 years. There has never been a robbery until back in november when there were 3 robberies in one day, today there was another. It was more than likely the same people who do the others because very similar method, same time of day etc. The call was made to the gardai at around 10 this morning, the guards didn't arrive until 10 to six this evening. This is a small estate, 20 houses, and in neither instance did any guard come around and ask did anyone see anything.

This isn't me slagging off the guards, this is me slagging off a system where it takes 8 hours for a guard to arrive at the scene of a crime. As for guns, yes it would make them safer but would it really do anything? I honestly don't think so. Criminals have gotten so brazen because they know that they can get away with it. The guards can't use these weapons when they aren't enough of the guards in the first place. They are stretched to the limit, I don't envy their job right now. I tried ringing the Garda station a couple of weeks ago with query, it was about 5 in the evening and no one answered the phone, the first time that's ever happened.

People on here say all the time that this country is lawless, and while it's a bit drastic I do think it's going that way. With Garda station closures and the severe cuts we have a force that is slowly but surely being brought to it's knees. I feel sorry for the guards, but I feel more sorry for the innocent people who are being targeted by brazen criminals who's crimes often go uninvestigated.

KwackerJack

Blay wrote: »

I don't recall the public being consulted on it so it's a stretch to declare the public as being against arming the Gardai. The only ones who seem dead set against it are the Garda brass themselves.

They why so many negative post's about it??

Either we have a force to uphold the law or we just give up and bow to drug dealers!

BobbyPropane

KwackerJack wrote: »

Our citizens do not have the same access to firearms as the Americans do so they possibly of meeting an armed man everyday are slim but the 'sure be grand' attitude has to stop!

Train our force properly with severe punishment for breaking the rules.....but for god sake let our Guards defend themselves and get home to their family's!!

The Garda was armed too I presume(Detective). It didn't make a difference. Gardaí being killed is not a regular occurrence!

Bipolar Joe

KwackerJack wrote: »

I can agree to a certain extent. But ask the criminals to get rid of their guns because the police don't have any?? See what response you get!!

If they are armed well we need to respond in the same way or just let them just do as they please!

I'm talking about the for / against parties, here. No opinions get changed. It goes around and around, with the exact same points being made by both sides until it inevitably devolves into over the top slagging. I've been a spectator in a few of these, and it always plays out the exact same way.

Let's be honest, no one has the fucking answer. No one knows what the result will be. Basing it on another country is pointless because of the insane amount of variables involved. It's Schroedinger's Cat, guys. You don't know if the cat will shoot you for your shoes or not until you open the box.

Stained Class

As long as there's the generous levels of Social Welfare in this country, there will always be an underclass with an endless sense of entitlement without putting in hard work.

Some families now are on their 4th or 5th generation of living off the State.

Not much hope of getting any of them to do anything useful, untill their 'entitlements' (or goolies) are cut off.

KwackerJack

BobbyPropane wrote: »

The Garda was armed too I presume(Detective). It didn't make a difference. Gardaí being killed is not a regular occurrence!

No but murders involving firearms are ever present..and it will come a time where they will not think twice about killing a Guard to get away!

The very second gangs are armed in any country is the time where law enforcement has to step up and fight back no matter how many cops are shot they should not have to take the chance

orestes

Serious question - I'm just asking because people on the thread are calling for the gardai to be armed in response to this tragic event, but including this incident how often is a member of the gardai shot in the line of duty?

Witcher

KwackerJack wrote: »

They why so many negative post's about it??

Either we have a force to uphold the law or we just give up and bow to drug dealers!

A few posts on an internet forum is hardly indicative of wider public opinion on the issue in fairness.

sfwcork

Op can you give examles of where your theory work

Cops in the Us and Uk are armed.Thats certainly not deterring crime nw is it

deco nate

all money runs are escorted by armed gards

Grayson

KwackerJack wrote: »

I can agree to a certain extent. But ask the criminals to get rid of their guns because the police don't have any?? See what response you get!!

If they are armed well we need to respond in the same way or just let them just do as they please!

I've see reports of many robberies committed by guys with hurleys. Yep, in ireland you can rob a post office with a stick.

Occasionally, it escalates and someone brings a gun to a stick fight. That's when the special cops arrive with their guns.

I'm happy with this. I like knowing that at most the number of criminals walking around this country that are actually carrying firearms can probably be counted on less than my two hands.

There's a few criminal organisations that have a few handguns. Most have nothing bigger. The ones that do have terrorist affiliations and they're rare.

I think only an idiot would want to arm the police force in it's entirety. Once that happens criminals need guns for every robbery. Next thing you know, there's fire fights and police and bystanders are getting shot.

I've only ever known a few cops, but they shared that opinion. The one thing they don't want is any reason for every petty criminal to start carrying guns.

Grayson

KwackerJack wrote: »

They why so many negative post's about it??

Either we have a force to uphold the law or we just give up and bow to drug dealers!

Jesus, you guys only ever have two options don't you. We have some police that are armed. It's not an all or nothing problem.

Happyman42

The 'kill or be killed' philosophy works both ways. The robber is thinking the exact same thing.
Tragically a Detective has died tonight in a 'gun battle', which seems to suggest that the fact the Garda was armed may have contributed to his death.
It's not the solution imo.

Lenin Skynard

Stained Class wrote: »

As long as there's the generous levels of Social Welfare in this country, there will always be an underclass with an endless sense of entitlement without putting in hard work and they have loads of guns!

There, I made your comment actually relevant to the thread. You're welcome.

eddhorse

Grayson wrote: »

I've see reports of many robberies committed by guys with hurleys. Yep, in ireland you can rob a post office with a stick.

Occasionally, it escalates and someone brings a gun to a stick fight. That's when the special cops arrive with their guns.

I'm happy with this. I like knowing that at most the number of criminals walking around this country that are actually carrying firearms can probably be counted on less than my two hands.

There's a few criminal organisations that have a few handguns. Most have nothing bigger. The ones that do have terrorist affiliations and they're rare.

I think only an idiot would want to arm the police force in it's entirety. Once that happens criminals need guns for every robbery. Next thing you know, there's fire fights and police and bystanders are getting shot.

I've only ever known a few cops, but they shared that opinion. The one thing they don't want is any reason for every petty criminal to start carrying guns.

Good point.
If the Gardai did get guns, would the scumbags do a robbery if they didn't have guns ?
The other side to this is would the Gardai 40 minutes away get there on time either way?
I feel sorry for the Gardai at the mo, thankless job.

KwackerJack

sfwcork wrote: »

Op can you give examles of where your theory work

Cops in the Us and Uk are armed.Thats certainly not deterring crime nw is it

Did I say that crime will drop when our force is armed??

No what I said was our Gardai should be able to defend themselves and not have to go home in a body bag because of some coked up hard man with a pistol!!

Some criminals will think twice as I said...!

you have ten men against ten larger men....some of the smaller men will have sense and think, no bad idea!

A criminal contemplating a robbery or shooting will think what if? 1 of me and 4 armed guards??

Any person out number be it in a fight/shooting or even a sport will think twice before acting!!

I did not once say it will stop crime but we have to show these scum that they cannot have free reign to shoot when they like

KwackerJack

Happyman42 wrote: »

The 'kill or be killed' philosophy works both ways. The robber is thinking the exact same thing.
Tragically a Detective has died tonight in a 'gun battle', which seems to suggest that the fact the Garda was armed may have contributed to his death.
It's not the solution imo.

So if the Detective was not armed he had a better chance of surviving?????

Well that's a good rule to work with :rolleyes:

deco nate

Happyman42 wrote: »

The 'kill or be killed' philosophy works both ways. The robber is thinking the exact same thing.
Tragically a Detective has died tonight in a 'gun battle', which seems to suggest that the fact the Garda was armed may have contributed to his death.
It's not the solution imo.

so do you really think unarmed escortes
are the way to go?
really

bullets

I've never been able to make up my mind if I would agree with all the gardai being armed or not. I cant help but feel the training and amount of firearms experiance they get in the first place is not enough. Certainly I've no issue with the armed response unit and thing there should be more members to support the ordinary garda but I'm just not sure about issueing a firearm to every garda
on patrol.

I remember reading someplace before that one of the main garda gun ranges was shut down and they needed to aproach privite gun clubs to be allowed train. There have also been a few (3 or more? sorry I dont have news Links) cases where Serving members of the Gardia have committed suicide with a garda issued firearm, and there have been cases where firearms have been lost and stolen that were not widely reported in the media.

my hometown you rarely see a garda on the beat walking the town, CCTV camera's have a more visable presence that anyone in uniform, We've had burglary's where I live where I witnessed the break in as it happened, took photos and kept ringing the local station who sent out detectives hours later.
Kinda still shocked and stunned that there is going to be cuts in gardai numbers when there currently is not enough numbers to effectivly police the place.

~B

sfwcork

KwackerJack wrote: »

Did I say that crime will drop when our force is armed??

No what I said was our Gardai should be able to defend themselves and not have to go home in a body bag because of some coked up hard man with a pistol!!

Some criminals will think twice as I said...!

you have ten men against ten larger men....some of the smaller men will have sense and think, no bad idea!

A criminal contemplating a robbery or shooting will think what if? 1 of me and 4 armed guards??

Any person out number be it in a fight/shooting or even a sport will think twice before acting!!

I did not once say it will stop crime but we have to show these scum that they cannot have free reign to shoot when they like

Your theory is useless kid.Cops in other countries carry guns and crimials have no issue shooting them.Just because cos have guns as never or will never deter crime.Do you really think that a gang planning on robbng a securicor van will go"oh wait ets not bother robbing it and go watch corrie"no.they dont give a rattling ****

You swear were in the bronx by the way your going on

KwackerJack

sfwcork wrote: »

Your theory is useless kid.Cops in other countries carry guns and crimials have no issue shooting them.Just because cos have guns as never or will never deter crime.Do you really think that a gang planning on robbng a securicor van will go"oh wait ets not bother robbing it and go watch corrie"no.they dont give a rattling ****

You swear were in the bronx by the way your going on

How many Army escorts have been attacked in this country???

There's a reason why criminals don't try to often to rob a cash van escorted by the DF. and we all know that reason why!!




**Can a mod please close this thread**

Happyman42

KwackerJack wrote: »

So if the Detective was not armed he had a better chance of surviving?????

Well that's a good rule to work with :rolleyes:

deco nate wrote: »

so do you really think unarmed escortes
are the way to go?
really

Well I'm going on reports on twitter that this wasn't a CIT situation, the Detective responded to a panic alarm according to some sources. Maybe that isn't what happened, I don't know.
It is a rare thing here that somebody would open fire on a detective and kill in cold blood, very rare actually.
Put two guns there and it's a 50/50 situation based on the 'kill or be killed' philosophy. You have to accept those odds if you arm the Gardai, that's the unfortunate truth.

sfwcork

KwackerJack wrote: »

How many Army escorts have been attacked in this country???

There's a reason why criminals don't try to often to rob a cash van escorted by the DF.

Good god.The reason vans are not robbed as frequent as before is not because the drivers are armed.

How many cops are killed on duty in ireland...once in a blue moon

As i said your clearly over reacting.its not the bronx

Stained Class

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

There, I made your comment actually relevant to the thread. You're welcome.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

sfwcork wrote: »

How many cops are killed on duty in ireland...once in a blue moon

One is too many.

dave1982

sfwcork wrote: »

Good god.The reason vans are not robbed as frequent as before is not because the drivers are armed.

Can you explain why they're not being robbed as often?

Bullseye1

For those against arming the police force to tackle armed gangs or allowing people defend themselves in their home. What is your solution? What would you do with these people who have no hesitation killing you.

KwackerJack

sfwcork wrote: »

Good god.The reason vans are not robbed as frequent as before is not because the drivers are armed.

How many cops are killed on duty in ireland...once in a blue moon

As I said your clearly over reacting.its not the bronx

Who said driver were armed??? I said Army read the post properly!

So why are Army escorted cash vans not hit??

No I don't think I live in the Bronx but i don't think the widows of guards killed are living in paradise??

They may as well be in the bronx as there going through hell now!!!