very old chinese apothecary jar?

bogwalrus

I have no idea what this is but because of its shape it resembles some of my google searches of medicine jars.

It was picked up from a very old station house located near a docks. The paintings are almost all faded but i can see boats and fish and a few characters. One of them is definitely Asian. There are no visible makers mark and its definitely hand made.

Would love to know more about it=)

frankosw

bogwalrus wrote: »

I have no idea what this is but because of its shape it resembles some of my google searches of medicine jars.

It was picked up from a very old station house located near a docks. The paintings are almost all faded but i can see boats and fish and a few characters. One of them is definitely Asian. There are no visible makers mark and its definitely hand made.

Would love to know more about it=)

It *looks* to be heavily discoloured stoneware...ie victorian or early 20th c.

have a look along the bottom of the jar where it meets the base and see if there's any inscribed letter or mark.

bogwalrus

Hi thanks for your reply.

There doesn't seem to be any date marks. The Lid and the painted figures are leading me to believe it is of asian origin as i can see a face that is faded which is definitely asian looking.

I however can see similarities in some of the victorian stone ware.

bogwalrus

could some of the victorian ware have decorations of asian fishermen etc?

frankosw

bogwalrus wrote: »

could some of the victorian ware have decorations of asian fishermen etc?

Of course..they had all types of stuff on them.

I had a tea caddy from an english firm from 1900's with an entire chinese tea-drinking scene on it.


Also as it has faded i dont think it's been transfer printed..ie the design baked on when the jar was being fired.

bogwalrus

So i have made some progress with this item.

Believe it or not i can connect my piece to the girl in the painting of the Mona Lisa. I kid you not.

I have discovered a small "P" that is exactly like the number "p figure 12" in the following picture.




According from this picture it is from the "Caffaggiolo palace" which was owned by the Medici family and made beautiful majolica.


"Caffaggiolo
Noted for beautiful majolica 15th through 17th century. The words "Clovis", "Semper (SPR) and the initials SPQF and SPQR are frequently found on this ware.
2-31 Gaff aggiolo-15th, 16th and 17th century marks on Majolica."


here is a link with more information http://www.oldandsold.com/articles05/pottery21.shtml


More research leads me to believe it is 15th century due to the following:

"The early ware was never mezzo, but it was sometimes enamelled on the top surface only, and always decorated in blue under a rich, even pure glaze, with borders and designs somewhat resembling fourteenth-century woodcuts."


The woodcut reference are a clincher because the art on my piece fits that category exactly compared to all other Caffaggiolo pieces.


I then dug up some history of the location where I found the piece (tralee, co kerry) to see if there were any ties to italy especially Florence and I sure did=)


"The news of Frederick’s exotic court at Palermo (Sicily) may have been transmitted to the Geraldines by their cousins of Florence, the Gherardini. The families corresponded, and some of the correspondence survives, including the parts in which they ponder the possibility of their shared Florentine ancestry."


If any of you have been to Tralee it has the "Geraldine centre" all about medieval Tralee. The Fitzgeralds of tralee are commonly known as the Geraldines.

So why it links with the Mona Lisa. Well follow the wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_del_Giocondo


So the Geraldines and Gherardini of Florence were related and maybe explains why a piece from italy around 15th century might have ended up in Tralee.

Pretty cool=)

Also the girl in the Mona Lisa married a silk and cloth merchant. they married 1495 but who knows he could have visited tralee.

I would love to make a real connection with this piece and the mona lisa. that would be awesome=)

bogwalrus

I have dug up some more interesting information more specific to the exact location i found this item. An old station house in Blenerville.

"James Fitzmaurice Fitzgerald landed a small Papal invasion force in July 1579, initiating the second Desmond rebellion, but was killed only a month afterward.

On 10 September 1580, a force of Italian and Spanish Papal troops combined with both Irish and English forces numbering over 600 commanded by Sebastiano di San Giuseppi landed to support the rebellion carrying a banner blessed by the Pope bearing the coat of arms of Fitzmaurice and occupied Dún an Óir ('Fort of the Gold'), an Iron age Promontory fort located near the harbour. The force was acompanied by Dr. Sanders a religious zealot with bearing the respect and backing of many of the Catholic kings and princes of Europe. This precipitated the Siege of Smerwick, which culminated with their surrender to English forces under the command of Lord Grey. They were all massacred on the spot immediately after the surrender was complete."



So I think I can connect the item to the massacre of the italian and spanish men slain here as it is a small distance from the station house.

frankosw

Initials are very commonly stamped onto stoneware..the most common being "D" for doulton Of Lambeth.

I have seen "s" and "p" several times on jars from teh same deposits so its a leap of credulity to suggest it's in some way it relates to the 15th century...much less that it has anything to do with monqa lisa.


Your jar is almost certainly victorian or slightly later,sorry.

bogwalrus

If you take a look at some of these:

https://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&tok=jxMN1D4pXtwOFo8OFXiNLg&cp=28&gs_id=5&xhr=t&q=italian+renaissance+maiolica&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41642243,d.ZGU&biw=930&bih=593&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=pa4KUfm3O8jVtAb9_IHYBg#um=1&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=italian+maiolica+jar&oq=italian+maiolica+jar&gs_l=img.3...31930.35655.0.35837.7.6.1.0.0.0.95.531.6.6.0...0.0...1c.1.OZUq4BIq8WM&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41642243,d.Yms&fp=c6cbc46dc84cb031&biw=930&bih=593


The dating letter is exactly number 12 with the top of the "P" having an extra two lines. The piece is also in the style of many early Italian pieces i have searched.


Also further research shows that in 1580 600 spanish and italian men invaded Tralee sent by the pope at the time just a few miles from where i got the item.

Interesting read here:)

http://www.kerryhistory.ie/documents/4.%20D%C3%BAn%20an%20%C3%93ir.pdf



here are also examples of French medicine jars:

http://www.trevorphilip.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=149&tabindex=148&postid=5623&postcategoryid=-1



There is a battle scene depitced on my jar with a man and sword. Some very intricate ships can also be made out. I think it can be classified as maiorica as i think in its hay day this piece would have been a work of art. Its so worn now though.

bogwalrus

here are two pics of the "P". You may have to rotate your head to the right.

bogwalrus

I took a negative of the base so its clearer to see marks.

I really don't know if its Italian as the lid is same material as rest so no metal. If it is victorian what period is it likey to be?

frankosw

bogwalrus wrote: »

I took a negative of the base so its clearer to see marks.

I really don't know if its Italian as the lid is same material as rest so no metal. If it is victorian what period is it likey to be?

I honestly cants see any other lettering apart from an inscribed L on the base.

The rust damage and "sickness" is entirely typical of stoneware that has been in the ground for a while alongside metal rusty objects etc..this sort of thing commonly is recovered from victorian rubbish dumps alongside bottles,clay pipes and pot lids.

Is the object very heavy for its size?

bogwalrus

That's funny you only see the "L". The "P" is the only thing you can clearly see inscribed in it. The "L" is barely visible without negative. It is heavy for its size actually. Lid is light enough but most lids are I suppose? There is also a white powder in the base (or residue) leading me to think drug jar.

bogwalrus

these two are the closest in resemblence to my piece and they are Italian.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apothecary-jar-morphine-opium-pottery-152020073

frankosw

bogwalrus wrote: »

these two are the closest in resemblence to my piece and they are Italian.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apothecary-jar-morphine-opium-pottery-152020073

They dont look remoetely like what you have.

Imagine this:




With a lid and a lot of ground-immersion damge and you have an item similar to yours.

You find an item obviously 19th century,assume its 15th century and then invent unlikely provenance and weird scenarios to justify your assumptions.

Initially you said you thought it was chinese because of obviously asian illustrations(none visible),then you linked it to the mona lisa because of a letter on the base,then you further link it to the massacre of some people in kerry,assume its majolica and settle on the theory that its italian fine art from the 15th century based on "markings" invisible to the naked eye.

Lastly you discover powder in teh base and assume they are Italian apocathory jars.

Can i just ask how you though a piece of italian fine art from the 15th century ended up in a disused station house in Kerry in that condition?

If you're not going to listen to advice i realy dont know why you asked.

bogwalrus

I'm listening to your advice and thank you. Don't know why your getting angry. Just trying to get a better answer than what has been offered.

I think the big problem is that you can't see the item in person as that image you posted is nothing like the item I have. I will post a few more pics and you will see it indeed looks similar to the link i posted to the apothocary jars.


Again I thank you for advice and opinion. Unfortunatley I still have questions and that is why I am posting on this forum.


I think its best you ignore this thread as it's probably not worth your time. Sorry.

frankosw

been conferring with a friend of mine..it's an early 1920's stonewear jar with a pewter lid.

bogwalrus

frankosw wrote: »

been conferring with a friend of mine..it's an early 1920's stonewear jar with a pewter lid.

The jar might be 1920's yes. The lid is not pewter. Clay or stoneware maybe.Ill post a pic later of it.

bogwalrus

some pics of lid:










I'm guessing the red bits and similar marks are from a metal glaze on the lid?