Ultra Question : Food while on a run..

tHE vAGGABOND

Shocked this has not been asked before, or else my search skillz are crap - but in last couple of marathons when I had taken 3 or more gels my stomach was in ribbons. So with Donade and Conn in the next while, I want to get that sorted.

So as I embark on ultra's I clearly need to think about actual food, not sugary goop. I have been doing a good few longer runs in a fasted [or semi-fasted] state, so train body to work on my [ample] fat reserves. But if Im running for 5-6 hours I need something apart from company to prevent me going crazy

But as I embark on runs at near or longer than marathon distance over next few weeks I want to practice eating "stuff" during the run. But Im not sure what way to go with it. There is a huge amount of info on folks do, and its very much down to personal preference. I know I dont like too many gels, and thus far, I have not do a lot of eating "real" food when running, gels being fine [and easy/lazy option] for longer training runs and marathons.

Now when pacing DCM I was lucky enough to get a bit of Ultraman's cake, and RQ's cake is the stuff of legend [but never actually had any myself :sadface:].

Just wondering, of the many veterans of ultra's around here, what you eat on long [LONG...] runs?

ultraman1

usually just look in fridge/press and see wats dere,,breakfast bar,cake,few fun size bars,pancake,,but usually make sure i was well fed b4 goin out,big breakfast b4 bed if its an early run and/or a small 1 b4 goin out....... or bring a few bob and catch nice carvery

http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2010/03/cocaine-bars-energy-bar-recipe/ these are gorgous

Enduro

I eat nothing on long training runs. If you want to maximise your fat burn adaption then you're going to have to commit to it properly!! If you bonk on a long training run then fine... you're pushing yourself.

I eat as little as possible on ultra races. If you read my race reports from Across the Years or UTMB you'll see I didn't eat very much on them at all. I ate precisely nothing during the Art O'Neill recently. For Donadea I'm anticipating eating precisely nothing again.

More than likely you don't need something. You just think you do.

Gels are like defibrulators (sp?). Useful to have around if things go badly wrong as they'll give you a good kick start, but should not be used in general and certainly should not be used regularly.

Rogue Runner

Likewise. I'll only use gels in case of emergency. I ran the Art O'Neill and ate very little, and ran better for it. A handful of nuts with some dried fruit. With the right approach to training you can run on very little or nothing at all.

Saying that though, I had a monty breakfast down the Glenmalure Lodge that morning.

PaulieC

whilst I have been training as much as possible without eating anything, I find that the mental aspect of food is as important, if not more important, than the actual eating. It might not be huge mileage compared to some, but I have run 20 miles with no food or water, not having eaten for hours before running, and it has been fine. Other times, last Saturday being an example, I had a pretty big cooked breakfast about 2 hours before I went out, I felt sh1tty after about 10 miles and finally 'gave in' after 12 and bought a juice pouch thingy and a milky way. I just felt tired and hungry before that and I know that it would've passed, but I was passing a shop and it was too tempting . I have no doubt that I would've got home in the same time if I had not eaten anything, but in my mind I felt better for it.
So I have no doubt that I, or you, can run Donadea without having food, but I'd prefer not to, even for the mental lift it gives. I'll be having white bread with smooth peanut butter. And chocolate. Not for any magical energy-giving properties that they might have, just coz I love them .

menoscemo

I have never managed anything solid the two times I have Donadea and Conn Ultra (despite convincing myself I would need solid food and practising it on long runs). In the races themselves my stomach just couldn't cope with solids.

Gels and drinks are fine for both races. Ice cold Coke/Mountaindew goes down well.

For donadea this year I'll probably just drop a few gels and maybe a few bottles of Powerade and have some chocolate bars for after the race.

TFBubendorfer

You can only eat solid food if you are running slowly enough to digest it.

You definitely don't need anything in Donadea. A 50k is a marathon with a cool down at the end.

For Connemara I'd still recommend eating nothing. I easily get through it on gels and sports drink alone.

At some stage for longer ultras there's the point where solid food becomes beneficial, but I think it's most likely at a much longer distance than you think. I ran the 50 miler in Dingle twice, the first time trying to eat some solid food and having rather painful stomach cramps as a result (gels were the only thing I could eat without cramps), the second time with gels and sports drink alone, and I fared much better the second time round.

In short, for the two races you mentioned I would not even try to take solid food.

Outside

I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it. I seem to be finding out the hard way I'm not very good at digesting solids (including gel's) when my body is working hard so I'm tending towards less is more at the moment. In hindsight, for the recent AON, I'd just have a small amount sugary liquids for energy. Gel and banana did not go down well coming up to CP1. Didn't recover from the nausea until CP2.

Some people get away with eating and racing just fine. If it's not broken why fix it?

What I am finding though by restricting carb's and running is that by body no longer "bonks" anywhere near like it did before. I'm able to get "more bang for the buck" out of any calories I have therefore enabling me to eat a lot less and avoid having to digest food when racing. This may be the "fat adaption" people talk about.

belcarra

I'd be similar to yourself Vagga in that I can't really stomach gels or sports drinks too well but the one thing i have noticed during marathons and the couple of ultras I've done is a mouthful of sports drink works wonders without having to necessarily drink it down. Water's bland taste can be tough to take after 20 miles or so, but the quick burst of taste (good or bad) from gatorade/powerade/lucozade to liven up your senses offers a substantial boost. Much of the issue is mental so if you can turn your thoughts away from being hungry then that's most of the job.

Enduro

cambo_gueno wrote: »

I find that the mental aspect of food is as important, if not more important, than the actual eating.

Absolutely agree there. I apply that to nutrition in general. Food should be enjoyed.

There are huge mental gains to be had from knowing you don't need to eat food on long races though! One (significant) thing less to go wrong.

Outside wrote: »

What I am finding though by restricting carb's and running is that by body no longer "bonks" anywhere near like it did before. I'm able to get "more bang for the buck" out of any calories I have therefore enabling me to eat a lot less and avoid having to digest food when racing. This may be the "fat adaption" people talk about.

That sounds like it is!

belcarra wrote: »

I'd be similar to yourself Vagga in that I can't really stomach gels or sports drinks too well but the one thing i have noticed during marathons and the couple of ultras I've done is a mouthful of sports drink works wonders without having to necessarily drink it down. Water's bland taste can be tough to take after 20 miles or so, but the quick burst of taste (good or bad) from gatorade/powerade/lucozade to liven up your senses offers a substantial boost.

In my case I get coke cravings in longer races. Luckily in most ultras coke is one of the standard drinks provided at nearly every aid station . In (proper multi-day) adventure races I really have to stop myself thinking about it too much though (feck all access to coke in the middle of nowhere, and you wouldn't exactly hike about for days carry the stuff)! I similarly don't really like the taste of plain water, even after a long run. I know I'm getting dehyrated when I can happily drink tons of it.

tHE vAGGABOND

Thanks for your experience and wisdom folks

Marthastew

Vagga,
Hope you don't mind if I pop on and ask a question here....

Can someone explain (in simple terms;)) why I'd be better off NOT taking on fuel in a race? I usually restrict myself to limited liquids on long runs but when I first started running I ate anything and everything without any stomach issues. I've always assumed that a sugary drink/chocolate during a race would give me a boost. Obviously I know it's different for everyone and I agree that if it's not broken don't fix it but I'd be interested to know in case it's something I could try in the (very distant) future

Enduro

Marthastew wrote: »

Can someone explain (in simple terms;)) why I'd be better off NOT taking on fuel in a race? I usually restrict myself to limited liquids on long runs but when I first started running I ate anything and everything without any stomach issues. I've always assumed that a sugary drink/chocolate during a race would give me a boost. Obviously I know it's different for everyone and I agree that if it's not broken don't fix it but I'd be interested to know in case it's something I could try in the (very distant) future

Two things spring to mind...

If it is a short race (and by that I mean anything up to and including a marathon) then it takes time and effort to actually get the drink/food and consume it. You will loose some speed while you're eating. I have used this to create gaps on people when they try to grab food/water at an aid station and I accelerate through. You really don't need it, so why waste time. If you think of stopping for food/drink in a 10k track race it seems ridiculous. But yet you see aid stations on 10k road races (not for the top runners obviously, but then that in itself says it all).

If the race is long then you're creating a logistical issue for yourself. If you were to try to do a long hilly ultra then with the amount of food-energy some people say you'd need for a race of that duration you'd end up dragging your own bodyweight of food around with you. And again there is the time wasted continuously managing and consuming this food.

I've also read recently that if you start consuming sugars (carbs) then you're going to switch to burning these, and switch off your body's fat burning mechanism. You'll then need to keep consuming sugars or risk bonking. If you just stay fat burning then the issue doesn't arise. So you're creating a time consuming logistical problem for yourself unnecessarily.

jeffontour

Enduro wrote: »

I've also read recently that if you start consuming sugars (carbs) then you're going to switch to burning these, and switch off your body's fat burning mechanism. You'll then need to keep consuming sugars or risk bonking. If you just stay fat burning then the issue doesn't arise. So you're creating a time consuming logistical problem for yourself unnecessarily.

In a similar school of thought to this theory, you burn what you eat kinda thing, I've moved away from porridge as a pre race breakfast. I either don't have a breakfast at all or I have scrambled egg and bacon. The theory being this does not trigger the insulin response and instead promotes fat burning.

This no breakfast or bacon and eggs approach has worked for me in racing everything from 5 milers to marathons and also for longer training runs of 60km plus.

PaulieC

jeffontour wrote: »

I've moved away from porridge

jeffontour wrote: »

or I have scrambled egg and bacon

Tastes so much nicer too

nerraw1111

On the other hand, you have someone like Dakota Jones who seems to use gels quite a lot in his races. He won Transvulcania in 2012 and holds (held) the record for the 42 mile Grand Canyon double crossing. He took about 8 gels in the grand canyon crossing

From his blog (which can be v entertaining.)

"Ultrarunning involves far more variables than shorter distance running, and two of the largest that arise in trail ultras are staying on course and eating enough. The guys ahead of me were not only faster but more prepared, and the only thing I can do about that is learn from the experience. So here's what I've learned."

...(2) Eat gels. Eating while running is awkward and unpleasant. You lose your stride and get sticky fingers and mess up your breathing and on and on. The trouble never ends. However, eating while running is absolutely necessary, so the best way that I've found to get calories while on the go are gels. That's because they are the quickest and easiest way to eat. Perhaps a banana or a cookie or a Chipotle burrito (I dare you) are more "real" food, but they take forever to bite and chew and swallow, while at the same time gels are a quick and easy 100 calories. Even during the one 100-mile race I've done I ate gels the entire way. Yes, they were disgusting by the end, but the only reason I got to the end was because I could continue eating gels. Taste is secondary to efficiency, and gels combine quick and easy energy into a small pack that takes less than a minute to eat. So aside from an occasional cookie or brownie from an aid station, I stick entirely to gels."

He has more advice on the same blog posting. It's from 2011 but from what I can tell, he hasn't changed his outlook.

http://thatdakotajones.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/eating.html

TFBubendorfer

jeffontour wrote: »

In a similar school of thought to this theory, you burn what you eat kinda thing, I've moved away from porridge as a pre race breakfast. I either don't have a breakfast at all or I have scrambled egg and bacon. The theory being this does not trigger the insulin response and instead promotes fat burning.

That's where we all differ as individuals, and it's up to every runner him/herself to figure out what is working.

I tried several things but in the end I came back to porridge for breakfast (a big bowl, too) and a modest amount of gels for a race. I'd prefer sports drink as that seems to agree with me much more than a gel, but carrying half a dozen of bottles is not an option, obviously.

I tried the fat burning and I always run depleted in training, but I race better if I take some carbs.

In short, find out what works for you.

sideswipe

Interesting thread as it's something I've been researching for a while.
I went out for a 16 mile run today putting some of the advice on this thread to the test. Didn't go very well and I'm not 100% sure why.
I've converted to a low carb diet since the new year, nothing extreme- just cut out bread and cut down on pasta and rice having previously been VERY carb centric.
Long runs have been going great, but I'd have carbs before and during. For todays run had neither and bonked big time and not in a good way:(, not sure if it's just something I need to push through in adapting the diet adjustment or if It's just a bit too much too soon.

Be very interested to hear others experience of this

Enduro

sideswipe wrote: »

I went out for a 16 mile run today putting some of the advice on this thread to the test. Didn't go very well and I'm not 100% sure why.
I've converted to a low carb diet since the new year, nothing extreme- just cut out bread and cut down on pasta and rice having previously been VERY carb centric.
Long runs have been going great, but I'd have carbs before and during. For todays run had neither and bonked big time and not in a good way:(, not sure if it's just something I need to push through in adapting the diet adjustment or if It's just a bit too much too soon.

Be very interested to hear others experience of this

Just like training in general, it's not meant to be easy! Again, just like training in general there is going to be suffering and discomfort involved in getting your body to adapt. In general, you're going to have to put your body under stress to get it to react (adapt).

I've no idea what you think "bonking in a good way" is!

There is certainly no harm in taking a longer term approach and adapting in a more gradual way than you are currently doing, if you're more comfortable with that. As TFB says, you do need to figure out what works for you, but to make it work pain will be involved!

sideswipe

Thanks for the advice Enduro.
I feel I am seeing what works best for me at this stage. I went out the day after that run for a 14 miler and felt really strong after having porridge and a banana for breakfast.
At this stage it feels like eating a low carb diet day to day means that I get a huge lift from eating carbs pre run/race. The prospect of not carb loading and having to worry about food logistics during something like the Conn Ultra is very appealing so I guess I'll continue to experiment. I've done up to 20 miles without consuming anything, I only seem to suffer after not consuming carbs before hand so hopefully over time I'll strike the right balance.

BTW Congrats on the Across The Years result, really enjoyed the race reports on your blog, excellent stuff.

I've no idea what you think "bonking in a good way" is!

Bonking always had a different meaning to me before I became a runner;)

Enduro

Jaysus! It's a bad sign when I missed such an obvious reference! Clearly I've too much running on the brain

Racman

belcarra wrote: »

one thing i have noticed during marathons and the couple of ultras I've done is a mouthful of sports drink works wonders without having to necessarily drink it down. Water's bland taste can be tough to take after 20 miles or so, but the quick burst of taste (good or bad) from gatorade/powerade/lucozade to liven up your senses offers a substantial boost.

I have a vague recollection of reading details of some scientific research that found this to be true.