Why are manuals dying?

CianRyan

With DSG, tiptronic and other such auto boxes going into not only our everyday cars but our sports cars too, how long does a good manual have left?
Have those of us with enough money to consider buying high end sports cars become so eluded by the draw of 0-60 times that we'll never actually see that we're willing to sacrifice one of the quintessential parts of what makes driving both engaging and enjoyable.

Now, I understand the need for the likes of an Audi A8 to have an auto box but I don't understand why Ferrari and (soon) Lamborghini do not even offer a manual transmission in any of their cars.

Admittedly, I've only ever driven manual cars so I'm not the one to answer this question, how ever I do love having the gear lever there and throwing that perfect shift is one of my favourite parts of driving. So I ask those of you with more experience:

Why, in a sports or at least driver orientated car, would you pick an auto over a manual?

This video sparked the idea for the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N15v6CTcLN8

Mr Benevolent

Auto. Well, I have to have an auto. I'm legally required to be cool.

CianRyan

Well it's handy for lads and lasses like yourself alright.
Presuming you did the test in an auto, would you ever consider doing it again in a manual?

bren11

Auto, no DMF problems!!

T-Maxx

Auto

Why would I want to do something that a machine can do for me?

Mr Benevolent

CianRyan wrote: »

Well it's handy for lads and lasses like yourself alright.
Presuming you did the test in an auto, would you ever consider doing it again in a manual?

Maybe if I REALLY wanted an MX-5. Other than that, probably not.

Supertoucher

Because even if you own a sporty car, all the bhp in the world is never going to save your left leg at rush hour on the way in/out of Dublin City Centre.




FWIW I drive a manual with the heaviest clutch ever. I have thighs like Arnie now.

Cungi

I've driven both but prefer manual. Ill tell you when to change gear car, not you!

Leonard Hofstadter

Cungi wrote: »

I've driven both but prefer manual. Ill tell you when to change gear car, not you!

+1, I'd rather a manual every time. It's so much more satisfying to use a decent manual gearbox. And surely, the point of owning a sports car is that you get to have fun? Having something that removes the driver interaction to me makes the car less interesting.

Some automatics, such as DSG and multitronic, are a LOT less reliable than a manual too. That said, diesels and automatics usually make for good bedfellows, and on diesels having the auto means avoiding DMF failure.

Stinicker

Automatic driver here, they are simply the best, a sweet drive they are and sink the shoe and you are away from traffic lights in an instant similarly roundabouts too. Much more stability and only for the auto box I'd have gone all over the place in the snow today. They are a superior machine and manuals are really only for farmers and even most modern tractors now are semi-auto. Manuals are for poverty spec cars, boyracers and farmers!

Supergurrier

The vast majority of cars on Irish roads are manual , i would hazard a guess at 95%+

CianRyan

T-Maxx wrote: »

Auto

Why would I want to do something that a machine can do for me?

Cungi wrote: »

I've driven both but prefer manual. Ill tell you when to change gear car, not you!

As above, machine can often muck it up on you. At least if you muck it up yourself you can learn from it and get better, a machine will just continue on in the wrong gear again and again.

Then, flappy paddles and all come into the question.
I know you can select when to change and it will do it faster but is it really the same?
It seems very play station and well, I'm not much of a gamer.
I like the mechanical feeling of dropping down a gear, being able to control the clutch, etc... It's just a good feeling.
Not having to press a button to tell the computer whether to change hard or smooth, you control with your foot when you decide.

CianRyan

Stinicker wrote: »

Automatic driver here, they are simply the best, a sweet drive they are and sink the shoe and you are away from traffic lights in an instant similarly roundabouts too. Much more stability and only for the auto box I'd have gone all over the place in the snow today. They are a superior machine and manuals are really only for farmers and even most modern tractors now are semi-auto. Manuals are for poverty spec cars, boyracers and farmers!

Your auto box is only doing what you tell it, same as a manual. To be honest, I'd be more comfortable in a manual for snow driving, especially when compared to older autos that were very shift happy.
A lack of driver ability does not make an auto the better choice.

And with that, I said sports cars. If you're talking about a commuter for moving easily from the lights then you're missing the point, completely.

Chris_Heilong

Most of the Auotomatics available here are pants, not much Choice. I would go for Import and Auto everytime.

challengemaster

Stinicker wrote: »

They are a superior machine and manuals are really only for farmers and even most modern tractors now are semi-auto. Manuals are for poverty spec cars, boyracers and farmers!

Seems like high horses have auto boxes too.. :pac:

CianRyan

challengemaster wrote: »

Seems like high horses have auto boxes too.. :pac:

Nah, they're like electric cars, one gear and less to go wrong. :rolleyes:

T-Maxx

OP for someone who has never driven an auto you seem a bit biased.

To answer your question though:

1) Because most people who can afford sports cars aren't the ricer type, and
2) Because tech has come along way and the high end auto boxes know better than your average driver (or sports car driver for that matter.)

goz83

Only benefit of driving an auto is gettin a bj on the way home from the missus :pac:

I drive a manual....it's been a while

Matt Simis

Seem to be having "argument" on multiple forums Im on. Autos suit the infirmed, diesels (due to narrow powerband) and inner city driving. However they are dull, predictable, boring.. no matter how awesome the engine is.

It comes down to the pro-Auto crowd stating how basically

- they cant be bothered operating a clutch
- dont see any enjoyment in manuals outside "super cars" (ironic as pointed out some sports brands killed it outright)
- tip/steptronic in "manual" mode is "kinda the same" (which it isnt, its not bad but its not the same)


My current daily is a high torque Auto (only option on the model). My e31 8series is a 6sp manual (which is rare).
Manuals are just flat out fun (IMO obviously). Its not about speed or MPG or racing.. its just fun to be a human "cog" in a transmission system. You can do things you shouldnt or cant in Autos (like just say f-it Im staying in 3rd through every bend ahead, the near stop, the straight, then Im going to drop to 2nd and wheel spin for no reason). Also, every single used Auto (about 6 of them now) I bought had a problem with the transmission in some manner, usually requiring the whole thing to be torn out and a known "good" used one to be put in to get it perfect. Problems with manuals are usually solved with just changing the clutch. Servicing autos effectively is a death sentence for many older cars, its just prohibitive.


The next iteration of Autos is BMWs (and others I assume) predictive driving system, it uses GPS and intelligent mapping to passively monitor your speed and location and pre-emtively drop gears or hold them longer if it sees certain bends or road conditions ahead.
You know what does that vastly better without GPS and with the ability accommodate random "unmapped" hazards and visualise the road condition in 3-dimensions at 576 megapixels resolution...
The human brain and eye combo we were born with!



PS: FWIW manual transmission sales have increased in the US thanks to their association with fast cars, the last and current BMW M5 were available in the US with 6speed manuals, unlike all other regions.

Supergurrier wrote: »

The vast majority of cars on Irish roads are manual , i would hazard a guess at 95%+

Using Carzone Used cars (total of all types) as a benchmark, it suggests about 16% of cars are Autos, which would be accurate IMO considering several marques are mostly autos (Mercs, Lexus, many diesels).

Voodoomelon

Frankly is down to technological progression and how we as modern drivers have progressed along with it.

As more and more things in life have become easier because of technology, we've grown accustomed to not having to do things for ourselves. Because automatics are so smooth now, so fuel efficient and performance-matched to manuals, it goes without saying its something people now want.

Manuals, whilst great fun for the track and certain sport-oriented cars, the huge majority of cars are used for the daily grind, and to me a manual just adds to the grind. Why bother with a manual in your every day commute, in your 95%+ normal driving routine, in your daily battle in the car park.

The way things are going with hybrids and electric powertrains, not only will there be no need or want for a manual, there'll be no need for a gearbox.

I'll stick with the auto in the meantime.

CianRyan

T-Maxx wrote: »

OP for someone who has never driven an auto you seem a bit biased.

To answer your question though:

1) Because most people who can afford sports cars aren't the ricer type, and
2) Because tech has come along way and the high end auto boxes know better than your average driver (or sports car driver for that matter.)

I'm only relaying what I've heard and explaining what I like about my manual.

And what's this about ricers? Are you calling me one?
1.) We're not in America
2.) Most real driving enthusiasts seem to prefer a good manual box.

As I said, the high end companies are no longer offering manual as an option so regardless of how rich or poor they are, they can't buy a new Ferrari with a manual.
I don't care how far the tech has come, I drive because I love controlling everything myself. Ideally I'd like to have something with no power steering, abs etc... To play with on the week ends. It's about having fun, I have no interest in setting blistering drag times.
Actually, I'd consider drag racing the lowest form of racing but that's for another thread.

You should also look up the word ricer, it doesn't fit in with your argument.

Plug

After moving to Oz I much prefer auto boxes. I don't like double clutch gearboxes, they are not that reliable and don't feel right. As for real autos with a torque converter they tend to be pretty reliable.
I don't mind manuals that shift smoothly and have a light clutch.

Stheno

Supertoucher wrote: »

Because even if you own a sporty car, all the bhp in the world is never going to save your left leg at rush hour on the way in/out of Dublin City Centre.

I've spent many an hour on the Drumcondra road considering this

CianRyan wrote: »

I'm only relaying what I've heard and explaining what I like about my manual.

And what's this about ricers? Are you calling me one?
1.) We're not in America
2.) Most real driving enthusiasts seem to prefer a good manual box.

As I said, the high end companies are no longer offering manual as an option so regardless of how rich or poor they are, they can't buy a new Ferrari with a manual.
I don't care how far the tech has come, I drive because I love controlling everything myself. Ideally I'd like to have something with no power steering, abs etc... To play with on the week ends. It's about having fun, I have no interest in setting blistering drag times.
Actually, I'd consider drag racing the lowest form of racing but that's for another thread.

You should also look up the word ricer, it doesn't fit in with your argument.

I've a manual and like them.

However I do like powersteering the car I learned to drive in had no powersteering, I got biceps like Popeye for a short time

Lawless2k12

I like the feel of a manual... feel so lazy driving an auto! Plus a lot of the auto's I have driven don't change gear when I want them to. And overtaking can be sluggish sometimes

challengemaster

T-Maxx wrote: »

OP for someone who has never driven an auto you seem a bit biased.

To answer your question though:

1) Because most people who can afford sports cars aren't the ricer type, and
2) Because tech has come along way and the high end auto boxes know better than your average driver (or sports car driver for that matter.)

1. Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the biggest markets most sports cars are aimed at dominantly drive autos because they're lazy and don't give a crap what gear they're in as long as they get from A to B with the least effort possible, rather they'd prefer not to be associated with the "ricer" way of changing gears.... :rolleyes:

2. That's like saying a camera knows better than a photographer what way to take a photo, when in essence the camera only knows what it's programmer sitting somewhere in Japan told it. I'd love to see you find one professional photographer that uses Auto mode on their camera, though. Same goes for auto boxes and the linked ECU's.

Race drivers use paddle shift or sequential gearboxes because they're faster and give an advantage. They're still in 100% control of what the car is doing, they just cant change gear that fast. The same logic doesn't work when it comes to a road car. Shaving time off your launch from the traffic lights won't win you a trophy.

CianRyan

Stheno wrote: »

I've spent many an hour on the Drumcondra road considering this

I've a manual and like them.

However I do like powersteering the car I learned to drive in had no powersteering, I got biceps like Popeye for a short time

I agree on both your points.
Stuck in traffic on the Old Bawn Road I've often thought how nice an auto would be and I would in my eye give up my power steering in my daily driver.
It's for when you're out for nothing but to drive and you find yourself on a lovely mountain road, that's the time for being the only thing controlling the car.

Look at it this way:
Daily driver: LS400/750i
Weekender: AE86/240Z

Fun fun fun!

Cungi

Stinicker wrote: »

... and only for the auto box I'd have gone all over the place in the snow today.

That says more about your driving than the abilities of an automatic.

Stinicker wrote: »

They are a superior machine and manuals are really only for farmers and even most modern tractors now are semi-auto. Manuals are for poverty spec cars, boyracers and farmers!

At least you're not being snobby about it :rolleyes:

Stheno

CianRyan wrote: »

I agree on both your points.
Stuck in traffic on the Old Bawn Road I've often thought how nice an auto would be and I would in my eye give up my power steering in my daily driver.
It's for when you're out for nothing but to drive and you find yourself on a lovely mountain road, that's the time for being the only thing controlling the car.

Look at it this way:
Daily driver: LS400/750i
Weekender: AE86/240Z

Fun fun fun!

Yeah it's the evening/weekend drives when I really enjoy my car

My solution: Auto for the OH, manual for me. That would actually work, his heavy foot would be cured. Must investigate.

CianRyan

Stheno wrote: »

Yeah it's the evening/weekend drives when I really enjoy my car

My solution: Auto for the OH, manual for me. That would actually work, his heavy foot would be cured. Must investigate.

Might be the way of convincing my GF to learn to drive. If all she has to do is tell the car to go she'll be happier.

challengemaster

CianRyan wrote: »

Might be the way of convincing my GF to learn to drive. If all she has to do is tell the car to go she'll be happier.

Why would she do that when all she has to do now is tell you to go :pac:

Lutecia

Have both.
Auto is best excepted for 2 cases:
* Sports cars (no an Astra 1.4 SXi or a Golf TDi aren't sports cars)
* Econoboxes
When you really think about what the action of shifting a manual is, within a car that has electric and electronic everything, that seems a bit ridiculous.
That said, there are always people prefering manual airco to climate control, and hate automatic lights or handbrake.

CianRyan

You may as well keep that gif in your favourites for when ever I mention her.

Auto at the moment, mainly manuals previously except for an auto Prelude. For and against both but for normal cars there's little in it once there's a somewhat powerful engine in the car.

Next yoke will be auto too but it won't be a sports car.

Realistically the manual option is more involving.

Stheno

CianRyan wrote: »

Might be the way of convincing my GF to learn to drive. If all she has to do is tell the car to go she'll be happier.

Excellent idea, glad I could help

Btw did you see in chat about my 1kg of biscuits needing a home

challengemaster wrote: »

Why would she do that when all she has to do now is tell you to go :pac:

Independance, self-fulfilment, being able to go off shopping with the girls so Cian can go to more meets? On the subject of meets, I must find that thread.

CianRyan

No more biscuits for me, I'm doing operation transformation. Gotta keep the weight of the car down, ya know?

So, I've gathered so far that if you're not a racing driver and you have an auto it's either because you hate driving or you're just lazy.

Stheno

CianRyan wrote: »

You may as well keep that gif in your favourites for when ever I mention her.

He already does lol :P

RoverJames wrote: »

Realistically the manual option is more involving.

I'd quite happily have an auto now, as I'm restricted in driving due to a knee injury, and can't drive comfortably for any length of time in a manual

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

..........


I'd quite happily have an auto now, as I'm restricted in driving due to a knee injury, and can't drive comfortably for any length of time in a manual

I strained a muscle in my lower back over Christmas on the lhs, if I had a manual I wouldn't have been able to drive, would also have missed a few days at work in the new year, the auto paid for her tax for a decent lash of months :pac:

arleitiss

I am driving only for a year, just got my 2nd car and my license covers both manual and automatic. To be honest I can't imagine myself driving automatic. I come from country where "oh you drive automatic? - you must be wearing make up and having long nails too" basically where people consider you a woman if you drive automatic in age of 18-26 - Ukraine. I love the feeling when you are accelerating and you shift into higher gear then feel the boost of car Love manuals. Maybe when I am on pension I might get automatic, but while I am 19 I might as well go full on manual

T-Maxx

challengemaster wrote: »

1. Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the biggest markets most sports cars are aimed at dominantly drive autos because they're lazy and don't give a crap what gear they're in as long as they get from A to B with the least effort possible, rather they'd prefer not to be associated with the "ricer" way of changing gears.... :rolleyes:

Exactly. (I'll ignore the silly rolleyes effort.)

challengemaster wrote: »

2. That's like saying a camera knows better than a photographer what way to take a photo, when in essence the camera only knows what it's programmer sitting somewhere in Japan told it. I'd love to see you find one professional photographer that uses Auto mode on their camera, though. Same goes for auto boxes and the linked ECU's.

Race drivers use paddle shift or sequential gearboxes because they're faster and give an advantage. They're still in 100% control of what the car is doing, they just cant change gear that fast. The same logic doesn't work when it comes to a road car. Shaving time off your launch from the traffic lights won't win you a trophy.

The vast majority of cameras are only used in "auto", because it automatically does most things that most any photographer would have to do in any case and it does so pretty darn good. (I agree there is a limit to all the fancy stuff too.) Similarly auto boxes are very good most of the times. Unless of course you're in the league of Finger Boy and friends, with better skills than the clever design teams in Germany or Japan.

Mitch Connor

The reality of the situation is, imo, that automatics are far more sensible from an evolutionary point of view.

A car should not move backwards unless it is in reverse. This is how an auto behaves.
It is not clever that after so many years of cars being in existence that there would be a requirement to manually change gears, cars should be able to do this seamlessly and effeciently. Auto's, to a large extent, deal with this.

I have a manual myself and it is only really the emmissions that would put me off an automatic - manuals generally have lower Co2 as far as I know.

Manuals will eventually die out, because they are an inefficient choice. The majority of modern drivers don't actually care about driving so manuals will phase out for them, in favour of auto's which are easier to drive.

I do like manuals myself, but i generally drive on the motor way so on a good day I reckon I change gear about 50 times, in total. If I was driving in traffic and traffic lights, stop start all the time, I would be absolutely fed up with a manual. Driving round city centre, and car parks, just irritates me in a manual.

challengemaster

T-Maxx wrote: »

The vast majority of cameras are only used in "auto", because it automatically does most things that most any photographer would have to do in any case and it does so pretty darn good.

Aaaaand that's how I know you're not a photographer.

The inbuilt flash on most cameras will expose 10-15m away at most. Every camera I've come across will insist on using this flash when taking landscape photos of things hundreds or thousands of metres away. If that sounds like something most photographers do anyway, I suggest you don't ever hire them for anything.

Mitch Connor

challengemaster wrote: »

Aaaaand that's how I know you're not a photographer.

The inbuilt flash on most cameras will expose 10-15m away at most. Every camera I've come across will insist on using this flash when taking landscape photos of things hundreds or thousands of metres away. If that sounds like something most photographers do anyway, I suggest you don't ever hire them for anything.

indeed, professional photographers or those really interested in taking professional type photos would use a manual. In the same way racecar drivers and people who really love driving, would mostly prefer a manual.

But for a large proportion of people, who only drive from place to place without really caring how they got there (in the same way many people just want to take a photo of their mates having a laugh rather than an arty shot of a poetic landscape) an automatic makes far FAR more sense.

For most people, an automatic is perfect and a manual is really just inefficient and unpractical.

arleitiss

Epic :pac: I use manual car and manual mode on my DSLR.

CianRyan

Mitch Connor wrote: »

indeed, professional photographers or those really interested in taking professional type photos would use a manual. In the same way racecar drivers and people who really love driving, would mostly prefer a manual.

But for a large proportion of people, who only drive from place to place without really caring how they got there (in the same way many people just want to take a photo of their mates having a laugh rather than an arty shot of a poetic landscape) an automatic makes far FAR more sense.

For most people, an automatic is perfect and a manual is really just inefficient and unpractical.

Aaaaaand, I'll say it again for people who keeping ignoring the OP.
This is a thread about drivers cars, cars to have fun with.

I don't give a ****e if anyone likes the auto in their Avensis because they hate driving. That's not what we're talking about here.

And you can not argue that a camera on auto will take a better picture than some one with an interest setting it up.
Manual boxes FTW and manual mode FTW.
Likewise, raw mechanics and RAW files are both awesome.

ottostreet

I used to be firmly in the manual camp but less so now.

I think it's down to the car. When I'm trying to waft around or going to work, I drive an auto 5 series which I think is great.

My toy car was auto, but I hated it so much I bought a donor car and converted mine to a manual. Much better.

For fun... Manual.
For a-b... Automatic.

dgt

Stinicker wrote: »

They are a superior machine and manuals are really only for farmers and even most modern tractors now are semi-auto. Manuals are for poverty spec cars, boyracers and farmers!

Seems like you got pissed on by a felter

I'd love to get a transmission for my car with non syncro, straight cut gears. Just to watch people like you try and operate it, whinging, moaning and crying they can't drive it.

I'd pay to see people like you working gears, brought down to everyone elses level, the ground

CianRyan

I'd love to get a dog box to confuse everyone.
Flat shifting all day. :cool:

challengemaster

Mitch Connor wrote: »

indeed, professional photographers or those really interested in taking professional type photos would use a manual. In the same way racecar drivers and people who really love driving, would mostly prefer a manual.

But for a large proportion of people, who only drive from place to place without really caring how they got there (in the same way many people just want to take a photo of their mates having a laugh rather than an arty shot of a poetic landscape) an automatic makes far FAR more sense.

I'm fairly sure I made that point about 45 minutes ago....

thecomedian

I've a DSG, which I'm very impressed with. I'd always pick a manual over an auto but the DSG isn't far off. In sport mode it's always on the power, I prefer it than the paddles I think.

CJhaughey

If I lived in a city or did a lot of motorway miles then I would probably get an Auto, seeing as I don't fit either of those categories the manual is fine for me and easily repairable if necessary.
Most Autoboxes even older ones have better ratios for motorway cruising then the same version in Manual, primarily because they have more stages.
I had an old Car once with a 2 stage auto, now they have 8.
Its very hard to build a manual with that kind of flexibility and even harder to get a human to operate it properly in a car.(truck drivers might be better)
If it wasn't for the idiotic driving license rules then I guess more people (women especially) would go for autos, it makes sense for the average human to have a machine to do a job better and more efficiently than they can do themselves.
If Lamborghini was still Italian owned they wouldn't be auto only VAG loves to put their tech into other marques.

piston

I have only ever had manuals as that is what you tend to find at the bargain basement of the second hand car market in this country.

I remember reading an article in a car magazine years ago where the author suggested that all the reasons people claim to prefer manuals are null and void for the majority of drivers who have no idea how, why or when to change gear. When I see people drive their Fiesta around town at 20mph in top, or on a DC at 60mph in third, I think he may have had a point.