Disillusioned With the Bar and Club Scene and Considering Using Escorts: Opinions?

Pug160

Well to cut a long story fairly short I have been spending a lot of time and effort over the past couple of years ''going out on the pull''. This has has brought me negligible success so far despite spending money on designer clothing, going to the gym, getting my teeth whitened, waxing, trying to become more confident - you name it.

I have been thinking that hiring an escort a couple of weekends every month might be better than going out all the time and feeling lost and frustrated. Has anybody here taken this route? I should state that even if I did use them I'd still go out every so often and try my luck as I'm doing now - just not on a regular basis. I know there are cons to this too but I'm not deluded - I know it would only be a transaction. I don't want relationships at the moment and trying to get these so called friends with benefits seems to be more hassle than it's worth.

Opinions?

AnonoBoy

Pug160 wrote: »

I have been thinking that hiring an escort a couple of weekends every month might be better than going out all the time and feeling lost and frustrated.

An escort won't help you feel any less lost.

As for the frustration, I'd imagine it'll relieve that in the short term but it's certainly not something that you'd want to rely on to make you feel better.

If you're feeling bad about yourself now, paying for sex is not going to make you feel any better about yourself.

shalalala

Maybe try online dating? Honestly? Is getting laid worth paying a woman to say "yes"? I know that some people are pro and some are anti prostitution but would you want to risk future relationships? I know quite a lot of women that would not be with a man that had paid for sex.

I really do not see how paying for sex is going to help your self-confidence. You need to do that on your own. You cannot look to sex to give you self-confidence, maybe look at counselling? There is obviously something that just isn't clicking in you.

Overheal

As was said, an escort is not going to make you feel any less lost/lonely, and certainly its not going to make you feel better about yourself.

When I hear a guy trying to talk about waxing and teeth whitening, I also imagine that guy is walking around the club with his penis in a twist (no offense personally) because he's not focused on having fun he's focused on sticking this into that and everything he does is just a means to that end. From what I've seen the people who are hitting it off are the ones there just there to have a good time. Women especially seem to give not the faintest bit of toss about trying to find a one night stand or a husband when they have a few vodkas and go to the club to dance to whatever the latest pop song is and they all go "EEEEEEEEEEE! OH MY GHOWD! THIS SONG!" at that high pitched tone that will scar your memory if you've ever worked in a nightclub.

On a side note, their also the ones with the thumb over the bottle. They aren't exactly stupid. Just, crazy.

It's just one of those things where if you are thinking about it, you pretty much lose. Which is probably where they even coined The Game (you just lost, by the way). From that perspective and only that perspective I could envision how an escort would help you get your mind off of it's sex fixation just long enough to actually go have some fun, but ideally you'd want to just try and have a little fun anyway and stop worrying about whether or not the next person you talk to is going to let you take them home.

Standman

If you are going to go down the escort route you should seriously sit down and think about it thoroughly. I say this because I think it may be something that could make you feel worse about yourself, or could be something that you will really regret in the future.

Many prostitutes are trafficked and/or abuse victims with serious issues in their lives. The escorts you see may be doing it of their own free will and be mentally healthy or they may not be. You really need to make sure you are the kind of person who is ok with that before you do it, because if not it will eat away at you without you even knowing why.

Pug160

Overheal wrote: »

As was said, an escort is not going to make you feel any less lost/lonely, and certainly its not going to make you feel better about yourself.

When I hear a guy trying to talk about waxing and teeth whitening, I also imagine that guy is walking around the club with his penis in a twist (no offense personally) because he's not focused on having fun he's focused on sticking this into that and everything he does is just a means to that end. From what I've seen the people who are hitting it off are the ones there just there to have a good time. Women especially seem to give not the faintest bit of toss about trying to find a one night stand or a husband when they have a few vodkas and go to the club to dance to whatever the latest pop song is and they all go "EEEEEEEEEEE! OH MY GHOWD! THIS SONG!" at that high pitched tone that will scar your memory if you've ever worked in a nightclub.

.

Part of the reason I'm thinking about using an escort is to relieve me of my ''desperation''. There's a theory that women can subconsciously ''smell'' sex from a man - in other words success breeds success and a man who gets none doesn't give off these pheromones or whatever they are supposed to be. I think the more likely explanation is that men who actually get laid are just more calm and relaxed.

I know all about girls behaving the way you have described - it's part of my problem that I can't relate. I never look as if I'm having fun and if I don't get drunk it's a very dull night. Bars are marginally better as the atmosphere is more relaxed and there's a higher chance of meeting people who act a bit more mature, but my success isn't great there either for various reasons. Internet dating is rubbish as most of the young, decent looking ones will never meet, even if they show interest.

Pug160

Standman wrote: »

If you are going to go down the escort route you should seriously sit down and think about it thoroughly. I say this because I think it may be something that could make you feel worse about yourself, or could be something that you will really regret in the future.

Many prostitutes are trafficked and/or abuse victims with serious issues in their lives. The escorts you see may be doing it of their own free will and be mentally healthy or they may not be. You really need to make sure you are the kind of person who is ok with that before you do it, because if not it will eat away at you without you even knowing why.

I think that's overblown by the media but at the same time it's a very serious issue and I'd be doing my best to avoid those girls. I'll be using high class independent escorts if I do decide to use them.

shalalala

Pug160 wrote: »

I think that's overblown by the media but at the same time it's a very serious issue and I'd be doing my best to avoid those girls. I'll be using high class independent escorts if I do decide to use them.

To think that there are many women doing the job because they want to and not because they have to no matter how "high class" they are is foolish. I suggest that you do your homework.

I am young. I am female and I met my OH online. It can and does happen. Maybe you have not met the right girl?

Ash.J.Williams

Stop whingin and go out with a load of men and have alaugh and don't try and "pull" and watch the success rise

endacl

Bad idea. I understand the reasoning, even if I don't agree, of it being an unemotional transaction in the case of somebody who just couldn't be doing the dating stuff and doesn't want a relationship. This doesn't sound like you though. If you're disillusioned with the bar and club scene, maybe you need to consider exploring another scene? Maybe you're placing too much emphasis on scoring? There's more to the game, you know?

Get out in other areas and meet people. If you don't score, there is the excellent consolation prize of meeting people.

As a side note, I'm approaching 40 now. I can't think of a single example of a close friend who ended up in even a medium term relationship as a result of meeting somebody in a bar or club. It's always been more.... random? I met my ex (still a close and valued friend) over an apple tart in a mutual friend's kitchen. The bar scene can be a bit of a cruel myth.

Edit: sorry op. Just reread your opening. Not a long termy thing you're looking for. Still, I'll stand by my post. The bottom line is for me, if you pay for sex, you're doing damage. Not least of all to yourself, and on different levels. If its one nighters you want, but you can't seem to 'pull', maybe you're no good at pulling?

To steal a line from jagger, you can't always get what you want. I have a feeling you may be looking for permission of a sort here, on some level. Go ask Ruhama about high class escorts. See if you still want permission then.

Pug160

Meh, I appreciate the comments, but some people's views on things irk me slightly.

I'm a young guy who is arguably in the prime of my life physically and some of you are expecting me to sit around eating crumpets with friends or something. I'll have plenty of time to do that when I'm on old codger in my 60s or 70s. Maybe I'm sort of whining, yes. But I'm not one of those guys who moans about women having it easy and not having to approach etc. Things are the way they are because of thousands of years of evolution, and I'm not arrogant enough to think I can change that, nor would I want to.

We are more or less just sophisticated apes and women in particular don't seem to realise (or want to) just how primal some of us are. I see women who are almost in despair because they haven't had a man in about a month, yet some of you seriously expect a man to go without intimacy for long periods of time and just be happy and get on with life? Well if I didn't have all this testosterone flowing through me I maybe could, but a man without testosterone isn't much of a man.

I could get it free right now if I really wanted, but lying there doing a girl who you don't fancy is not only soul destroying for the man, but it is terrible for the girl too, and I won't go through that again. Starting to see where I'm coming from now?

endacl

Pug160 wrote: »

Starting to see where I'm coming from now?

Absolutely. I think you've constructed a fine argument for yourself.

santana75

Pug160 wrote: »

Part of the reason I'm thinking about using an escort is to relieve me of my ''desperation''. There's a theory that women can subconsciously ''smell'' sex from a man - in other words success breeds success and a man who gets none doesn't give off these pheromones or whatever they are supposed to be. I think the more likely explanation is that men who actually get laid are just more calm and relaxed.

Thats a good point but I think you're a little off the mark with whats really going on. I know when I've been with someone I get a lot more attention from other women then I do when Im not. But I dont think its down to them sensing Im having sex, I think its more of a case that if you're going out with someone you're sorted already and you're not looking, which gives you an air of confidence and self assuredness. Its one of those great ironies in life, the less you want something the easier it comes to you. Its nuts and frustrating but I suppose the universe has some roundabout logic to it. The way I think about it is, its life telling you that you shouldn't wish for any one thing so much because in the end it wont make you happy.
As for the escorts.......man dont do it, as others have said already, you'll feel worse afterwards not better. Knowing you had to pay for sex is something that could put a serious dent in your confidence. Which would defeat the whole purpose of what you're trying to achieve. The club/pub scene isnt for everybody, you just gotta accept that. I know its a more straight forward thing: You go out, you drink, you go to a club, and you hopefully score. But a lot of people just aren't comfortable with that whole scene which then begs the question: If you dont go to a club to meet girls, then where do you go? And thats not such an easy thing to figure out, at least not as straight forward as going to a club. But its something you just have to do for yourself. Think about what you like to do. Are you good at sports? Do something you like though, not something you think will get you a girlfriend because thats the vibe you'll give off and thats a desperate vibe which is repellant. I know a few women who joined sports clubs just to try and get a boyfriend/husband and it hasnt worked, they're still single. So do stuff you're interested in and meet people as a by product of those interests. I wouldn't go near internet dating either. Its too contrived and artificial and I dont know one person who tried it and met their other half over the internet. Theres no substitute for meeting somebody face to face out of nowhere and feeling like you've just been hit by lightning, I just dont think thats possible from reading a few line of text on a computer screen.
Anyway, for your own sake stay away from paying for sex, high class call girls or not they're still call girls, and trust me man they couldnt care less about you, all they're interested in is the money.

ElleEm

What's to say you will fancy the "high class" escort? I think you'd be paying a lot of money for what will effectively be a w@nk with a woman in the end of it.

I agree with the other poster who said that sex workers are most often trafficked or vulnerable. Could you go into a situation knowing that you may be taking advantage of a marginalised woman?

It reeks of desperation and if it ever got out, you can be sure you will be judged for it.

endacl

ElleEm wrote: »

I think you'd be paying a lot of money for what will effectively be a w@nk with a woman in the end of it.

Agreed. I was tempted to say something similar, but thought it might be a little out-of-bounds as regards the forum. You might as well apply your favourite shade of lipstick to your hand and wrap it in a nice pair of lacy knickers.

Chronic Button

You don't seem very nice. Perhaps working on your character rather than your appearance would help you connect with a woman.

Isolt

Pug160 wrote: »

There's a theory that women can subconsciously ''smell'' sex from a man - in other words success breeds success and a man who gets none doesn't give off these pheromones or whatever they are supposed to be.

Pug160 wrote: »

Internet dating is rubbish as most of the young, decent looking ones will never meet, even if they show interest.

Pug160 wrote: »

I think that's overblown by the media but at the same time it's a very serious issue and I'd be doing my best to avoid those girls.

Pug160 wrote: »

We are more or less just sophisticated apes and women in particular don't seem to realise (or want to) just how primal some of us are.

I could be wrong and I hope I am but your attitude towards women seems a little off. The whole tone of what you're saying even, it doesn't sound like much other than anger and annoyance at women for not being attractive/easy/approachable enough for you. I wonder can they feel you objectifying them when you go out? We all do this to eachother to some extent and many people enjoy going out to 'pull' but you seem to be putting way too much importance on scoring on a night out.

endacl

Isolt wrote: »

I could be wrong and I hope I am but your attitude towards women seems a little off. The whole tone of what you're saying even, it doesn't sound like much other than anger and annoyance at women for not being attractive/easy/approachable enough for you. I wonder can they feel you objectifying them when you go out? We all do this to eachother to some extent and many people enjoy going out to 'pull' but you seem to be putting way too much importance on scoring on a night out.

If I might expand a little further...

OP, your tone suggests an attitude of entitlement to good and regular sex, with no strings attached and no consequences. Doesn't exist, I'm afraid. You're entitled to want it, certainly. Its just when you try to justify and rationalize an entitlement to have it, that your posts start to come across as a little creepy. Its an emotionally unhealthy position to argue from, and I for one am done with this topic. I hope you a least consider what well-meaning people have said to you here thus far.

Forever Hopeful

endacl wrote: »

If I might expand a little further...

OP, your tone suggests an attitude of entitlement to good and regular sex, with no strings attached and no consequences. Doesn't exist, I'm afraid. You're entitled to want it, certainly. Its just when you try to justify and rationalize an entitlement to have it, that your posts start to come across as a little creepy. Its an emotionally unhealthy position to argue from, and I for one am done with this topic. I hope you a least consider what well-meaning people have said to you here thus far.

From reading the OPs posts, I think that is what he wants but as you say it doesn't exist (unless perhaps he pays for escorts).
OP, there's been pretty sound advice here but you are not ready to hear it. However, you are a young guy who's put a lot of effort into yourself to look your best to attract a certain type of girl (probably someone who's put the same effort into herself and more) but girls don't work that way. Its the carefree, unassuming, funny & kind guy that get's the girls.
As Endacl explains with the attitude of entitlement, just because you look after yourself does not entitle you to your idea of gorgeous. So for now I'd park all that thinking and focus on your need which is relief from desperation if that is truly what you want (no strings attached) then perhaps escorts is the way for you until you get it out of your system. I can't believe I am agreeing but in the bigger scheme of things it is safer for the few women who might want more and not get it in return.
You have so much to learn but there's truth in that you can't put an old head on young shoulders. Good luck.

Pug160

I didn't realise I was giving off a ''tone''. I'm just here to ask for opinions and to discuss this issue. It's a serious topic for me so I'm not going to be jolly in my tone like I would be if I were discussing something lighthearted. Time and place for everything and all that.

Entitlement? Maybe I do feel somewhat entitled, but is that necessarily a bad thing? I'm not entitled to get laid by law but I'm worthy of being chosen - which is why most girls would say I should have no problem getting laid if they saw me - girls have said this. If you're saying that entitlement is wrong then you're criticising the majority of people - men and women. Depends on context though. I suspect that is just a term used by certain types of Feminists anyway.

Forever Hopeful

Pug160 wrote: »

I didn't realise I was giving off a ''tone''. I'm just here to ask for opinions and to discuss this issue. It's a serious topic for me so I'm not going to be jolly in my tone like I would be if I were discussing something lighthearted. Time and place for everything and all that.

Entitlement? Maybe I do feel somewhat entitled, but that is that necessarily a bad thing? I'm not entitled to get laid by law but I'm worthy of being chosen - which is why most girls would say I should have no problem getting laid if they saw me - girls have said this. If you're saying that entitlement is wrong then you're criticising the majority of people - men and women. Depends on context though. I suspect that is just a term used by certain types of Feminists anyway.

I think you misunderstood the tone bit. You can absolutely have whatever attitude you want, think whatever you want, say whatever you want. Knock yourself out!
Don't you see that its that very attitude is preventing you getting what you want. So what if girls say you have no problem getting laid - fact is its not happening. Of course we all have varying degrees of entitlement but its how it translates into our actions/words/attitudes causes the problems.
I feel bad for you OP as you really can't see it and until you see it, nothing will change for you.

Pug160

Forever Hopeful wrote: »

From reading the OPs posts, I think that is what he wants but as you say it doesn't exist (unless perhaps he pays for escorts).
OP, there's been pretty sound advice here but you are not ready to hear it. However, you are a young guy who's put a lot of effort into yourself to look your best to attract a certain type of girl (probably someone who's put the same effort into herself and more) but girls don't work that way. Its the carefree, unassuming, funny & kind guy that get's the girls.
As Endacl explains with the attitude of entitlement, just because you look after yourself does not entitle you to your idea of gorgeous. So for now I'd park all that thinking and focus on your need which is relief from desperation if that is truly what you want (no strings attached) then perhaps escorts is the way for you until you get it out of your system. I can't believe I am agreeing but in the bigger scheme of things it is safer for the few women who might want more and not get it in return.
You have so much to learn but there's truth in that you can't put an old head on young shoulders. Good luck.

But I'm agreeing with that, which is why I'm considering escorts for short term relief. I'm not coming across as carefree because I don't look it - I look a bit lost probably. Some people can actually fake confidence and enjoyment but I find it hard to, and that sort of look is probably as bad as being hideously ugly.

Forever Hopeful

Pug160 wrote: »

But I'm agreeing with that, which is why I'm considering escorts for short term relief. I'm not coming across as carefree because I don't look it - I look a bit lost probably. Some people can actually fake confidence and enjoyment but I find it hard to, and that sort of look is probably as bad as being hideously ugly.

Then there's your answer (for the issue to came on to boards to discuss) but as you've been trying to explain your feelings here you've thrown in a few gems (above example 'being hideously ugly') that reveals a level of superficiality that will prevent you from developing a connection with someone. That tone is what makes people hideously ugly not looks.

Pug160

Forever Hopeful wrote: »

Then there's your answer (for the issue to came on to boards to discuss) but as you've been trying to explain your feelings here you've thrown in a few gems (above example 'being hideously ugly') that reveals a level of superficiality that will prevent you from developing a connection with someone. That tone is what makes people hideously ugly not looks.

I wouldn't say I am superficial though, as silly as that may sound. Going to certain bars and clubs can be a very shallow world, and girls can visually be as shallow as men - I know this and improved my appearance. Lots of men are just able to put on an act - because it certainly isn't because of the good music or cheap drink, or taxis home.

It could be argued, actually, that I'm not being superficial enough and that is what is the cause of my lack of success, but that only makes sense if you read it in the context of going to shallow bars and clubs - I do not have a warped mind and think this way about every interaction - just these types in particular.

Standman

My success in getting women in bars etc increased drastically when i stopped going out with the aim of "pulling" and focused on just enjoying myself and not caring what happens.

Maybe try relaxing and doing your own thing. Stop arranging your social life and image around what you think appeals to women. Women notice this and it is unattractive.

skyfall2012

OP, you want sex without any strings. From what I can see on the TV, you will find that in places like 'Ibiza', 'Kavos' etc. These people all work on their looks, no need to work on your personality, the dumber the better from what I can gather. Guys taking hours to get ready, putting on makeup, getting absolutely s**t faced and then have sex with some girl in the corner of a night club. You would be crazy to pay for it, when it is so freely available. So many girls willing to give it up, once your hair gelled right, teeth white and a six pack. You are of a certain mindset of people and you are marginalized but you have to go where you will find other like minded people, you won't find many in Ireland, but you will in places like Kavos and Ibiza.

mood

Pug160 wrote: »

I didn't realise I was giving off a ''tone''. I'm just here to ask for opinions and to discuss this issue. It's a serious topic for me so I'm not going to be jolly in my tone like I would be if I were discussing something lighthearted. Time and place for everything and all that.

Entitlement? Maybe I do feel somewhat entitled, but is that necessarily a bad thing? I'm not entitled to get laid by law but I'm worthy of being chosen - which is why most girls would say I should have no problem getting laid if they saw me - girls have said this. If you're saying that entitlement is wrong then you're criticising the majority of people - men and women. Depends on context though. I suspect that is just a term used by certain types of Feminists anyway.

So you think women sleep with men based on looks alone? That is crap. Give me a nice, genuine, average looking guy who respects women over a extremely good looking guy who only sees women as sex objects any day.

You seem to think very little of women and this is probably the reason for your situation.

shalalala

Pug160 wrote: »

most girls would say I should have no problem getting laid if they saw me - girls have said this.

But yet you are still not getting any?! So you look good, girls are attracted to you, but at what point do they realise that you are not worth going to bed with?

If you are anything in person like you are coming across in your posts then I am not surprised. Most girls would like even a slightly nice guy, or someone with a personality with a healthy attitude to women. You seem to have none of this going for you.

If I were you I would work on what is going on inside of you. You need to have something more going for you then just "good looks".

Pug160

OK, I want to make a few points here because I'm probably not coming across well going by the replies (please bear with me).

I don't want to become some shallow idiot like the ones you see on reality TV. I'm only trying to be shallow for one night and for the sake of pulling. If I were going on holiday I'd want to go to museums and experience the culture etc - I wouldn't want to go to Ibiza or any of those other places. I'm seeing girls as ''sex objects'' because I want to sow my wild oats before I ever get into a serious relationship. I think this is something a lot of people overlook and then regret. Most of the women I get on really well with are actually older women.

I don't think women sleep with men based on looks alone but I think younger women put more emphasis on it. From what I can see, attraction is almost always binary to some degree. It's usually:

Mostly looks but a minimum requirement in terms of personality (which means a fun guy in a bar or club)
Mostly personality but a minimum requirement in terms of looks (which means as long as he's reasonably presentable he'll have a chance)
The younger girls usually go for the first one, older women the second, but there are always exceptions of course. My looks almost get me there but my inability to enjoy myself or look as though I'm enjoying myself prevents me from getting across the finish line.

I'm not actually a bad guy - but it's hard to come across as one with a subject like this I guess. I would say I'm quite cynical and analytical, probably too much so. But don't take me the wrong way.

mood

OP people regret not having proper relationships more than not sowing wild oats.

shalalala

I think when you get older you will not regret not having more sex, you will regret having a childish view on sex. You might also regret all those nights out that you could have been having a laugh that you spent preening yourself and trying to make yourself most f*ckable.

Go out and enjoy yourself. Forget about girls, masterbate more and work out more to try and calm those hormones down. But honestly? I really think you need to change your attitude to women, especially your view of younger/older. Women of all ages look for the same thing. I am early 20s and I have friends ranging up to 40s. We all want a nice guy. Someone that can make us laugh, someone attractive but not so into himself that he ends up being serious. Personality is the most important thing about a guy. One night stand or relationship.

Overheal

Pug160 wrote: »

Part of the reason I'm thinking about using an escort is to relieve me of my ''desperation''. There's a theory that women can subconsciously ''smell'' sex from a man - in other words success breeds success and a man who gets none doesn't give off these pheromones or whatever they are supposed to be. I think the more likely explanation is that men who actually get laid are just more calm and relaxed.

That's actually more of a correlation than a causation.

I know all about girls behaving the way you have described - it's part of my problem that I can't relate. I never look as if I'm having fun and if I don't get drunk it's a very dull night. Bars are marginally better as the atmosphere is more relaxed and there's a higher chance of meeting people who act a bit more mature, but my success isn't great there either for various reasons. Internet dating is rubbish as most of the young, decent looking ones will never meet, even if they show interest.

To be frank, because I think you need to hear it (and take it for what it is - constructive criticism): the various reasons you have low success in a high maturity environment is the apparently lower level of maturity you have to you "target". Which is to say, you think of women as targets. You also seem to only place any value on "young, decent looking women".

Pug160 wrote: »

I wouldn't say I am superficial though, as silly as that may sound. Going to certain bars and clubs can be a very shallow world, and girls can visually be as shallow as men - I know this and improved my appearance. Lots of men are just able to put on an act - because it certainly isn't because of the good music or cheap drink, or taxis home.

We're not trying to say style and hygiene aren't things to consider (they are) but they aren't the alpha and omega. You actually want to focus more on who you are as a person first, by which point your exterior looks usually just become a natural reflection of that. Good looks and the wrong attitude go nowhere. Which do you think is more important: your shirt or your body language? Unless you're some kind of wizard when it comes to acting, your body will always reveal your thoughts and feelings. If all you have is jungle fever intentions, its going to be readily apparent. Why, because womankind is designed to look out for it. Its an inherent trait. Its something autistic people usually dont have but thats another story - only to point out that its a real and testable proof of concept. You might think you've got the right looks and swagger, but I'm betting women can see right through it from across the room.

It could be argued, actually, that I'm not being superficial enough and that is what is the cause of my lack of success, but that only makes sense if you read it in the context of going to shallow bars and clubs - I do not have a warped mind and think this way about every interaction - just these types in particular.

You've just become cynical. Normal to be cynical, mind, but it's going to again, appear in your attitude and body language as arrogance, which is not going to work for you at all.

Pug160 wrote: »

I didn't realise I was giving off a ''tone''. I'm just here to ask for opinions and to discuss this issue. It's a serious topic for me so I'm not going to be jolly in my tone like I would be if I were discussing something lighthearted. Time and place for everything and all that.

It's not so much a tone as it is that your natural expression, even in writing, reveals the kind of thoughts and attitudes and values you have on the subject; people on the thread are simply keen to it. We're here to help, so we're simply pointing it out to you.

Entitlement? Maybe I do feel somewhat entitled, but is that necessarily a bad thing? I'm not entitled to get laid by law but I'm worthy of being chosen - which is why most girls would say I should have no problem getting laid if they saw me - girls have said this. If you're saying that entitlement is wrong then you're criticising the majority of people - men and women. Depends on context though. I suspect that is just a term used by certain types of Feminists anyway.

You're "worthy", but you've never been chosen. "Most girls" don't do the things they suggest. How many of these friends/girls have both said you're layable and have laid you?

You're doing a lot of deflecting. Most of these girls say this. Only certain types of Feminists think that. Most Men and Women feel entitled. You're using these as excuses for an attitude that, I don't think you've ever completely sat down to think about. But it hints at terrible self confidence. You strike me as someone who doesn't like to be the first to do things; doesn't like to be a team leader (sports, video games, work, school, doesnt matter) and are looking to others frequently to see what you should do. Thats not necessarily a problem all the time, but if its the case a lot, it might just be your self confidence is lacking.

Pug160 wrote: »

OK, I want to make a few points here because I'm probably not coming across well going by the replies (please bear with me).

I don't want to become some shallow idiot like the ones you see on reality TV. I'm only trying to be shallow for one night and for the sake of pulling. If I were going on holiday I'd want to go to museums and experience the culture etc - I wouldn't want to go to Ibiza or any of those other places. I'm seeing girls as ''sex objects'' because I want to sow my wild oats before I ever get into a serious relationship. I think this is something a lot of people overlook and then regret. Most of the women I get on really well with are actually older women.

If you're a well to do, cultured guy outside of your sexual frustration, just try to be that guy all the time! When I learned to relax and just be my normal nerdy self - holy ****, it was like I had a revelation. And those were the only times I "scored" in the pub or club scene, and they were also the times were I wasn't stressed out or whatever because I was trying to hide my own perceived character flaws or make sure my hair looked pristine. I was just being me. I like me.

I don't think women sleep with men based on looks alone but I think younger women put more emphasis on it. From what I can see, attraction is almost always binary to some degree. It's usually:

Mostly looks but a minimum requirement in terms of personality (which means a fun guy in a bar or club)
Mostly personality but a minimum requirement in terms of looks (which means as long as he's reasonably presentable he'll have a chance)
The younger girls usually go for the first one, older women the second, but there are always exceptions of course. My looks almost get me there but my inability to enjoy myself or look as though I'm enjoying myself prevents me from getting across the finish line.

I'm not actually a bad guy - but it's hard to come across as one with a subject like this I guess. I would say I'm quite cynical and analytical, probably too much so. But don't take me the wrong way.

Meh, you'd be a good engineer. But throw out your ideas about what attraction is. Looks is just correlative to confidence. Confidence is such a diluted term these days, but look, the reason nobody goes for the slouching, broody couch potato is because he doesn't take care of himself, one, and he doesn't seem particularly happy, two. So who wants to be with that guy? Nobody. Gabriel Iglesias? The I'm Not Fat Im Fluffy Guy? You can simply tell - that guy gets laid, and it's not because he gets his standup put on television. It's because he's happy with himself and he's confident. Now, imagine being confident, happy with yourself (which is to say you actually, genuinely, love who you are as a person), AND you were in great shape? You would probably not have your current problem.

Pug160 wrote: »

Meh, I appreciate the comments, but some people's views on things irk me slightly.

I'm a young guy who is arguably in the prime of my life physically and some of you are expecting me to sit around eating crumpets with friends or something. I'll have plenty of time to do that when I'm on old codger in my 60s or 70s. Maybe I'm sort of whining, yes. But I'm not one of those guys who moans about women having it easy and not having to approach etc. Things are the way they are because of thousands of years of evolution, and I'm not arrogant enough to think I can change that, nor would I want to.

We are more or less just sophisticated apes and women in particular don't seem to realise (or want to) just how primal some of us are. I see women who are almost in despair because they haven't had a man in about a month, yet some of you seriously expect a man to go without intimacy for long periods of time and just be happy and get on with life? Well if I didn't have all this testosterone flowing through me I maybe could, but a man without testosterone isn't much of a man.

I could get it free right now if I really wanted, but lying there doing a girl who you don't fancy is not only soul destroying for the man, but it is terrible for the girl too, and I won't go through that again. Starting to see where I'm coming from now?

Eh, thats kind of where we diverge into the soul destroying life of being a Sex Worker. And I think Retail is a hard life. Imagine having to suck and **** people who can't get it on their own for any of a thousand reasons. You're ****ing the undesirables, basically. Yes, you're getting money, by selling your body, and demeaning yourself. Im sure there are a small percentage of escorts that are comfortable with it, but it's not a very large percentage. Don't kid yourself.

See, here's the thing you need to understand. Modern society fails most of us as adolescents. We just don't learn all the morals and values that we should as children and teens and young adults. Now a lot of people still grow up in good homes, make good grades, and/or are at the very least happy enough with themselves that they can go out, have fun, meet like minded people, have some flings, whatever, but plenty of other people grow up lacking the necessary self confidence to do it. I sure as hell didn't. I missed out on years and years of underage sex while other people I know were going at it 6 nights a week. That also grates your own self confidence, like how you feel like an idiot because you could never see the illusion on those MagicEye posters but all your friends could so you felt stupid so you wonder what you're doing wrong.

My point is this: you want to be this sexually active, "player" for lack of an appropriate term, but you lack the necessary - I don't want to say skills, but components. It's like, to be an Engineer, I need this much Calculus, that much Physics, this much that, and then I'm an Engineer. I don't just sit in my bed and wish it really hard and then suddenly I can pick apart the flaws in an aircraft engine, it's something that takes time. You may want to go out there and dive right in to the wide world of vaginal sports, but you are not prepared, clearly. In short you have to learn how to walk before you run. It took me years to realize that you can't just skip ahead to the finish line. If you actually want the results you want (as you say in the thread, to be attractive to women), you have to go back to the batcave and work on you, first. Make yourself a person that even You can be happy to live with, and others will follow.

PS - I didn't figure out one of those posters until I was 24. It was a Space Shuttle.

mood

Pug160 wrote: »

Meh, I appreciate the comments, but some people's views on things irk me slightly.

I'm a young guy who is arguably in the prime of my life physically and some of you are expecting me to sit around eating crumpets with friends or something. I'll have plenty of time to do that when I'm on old codger in my 60s or 70s. Maybe I'm sort of whining, yes. But I'm not one of those guys who moans about women having it easy and not having to approach etc. Things are the way they are because of thousands of years of evolution, and I'm not arrogant enough to think I can change that, nor would I want to.

We are more or less just sophisticated apes and women in particular don't seem to realise (or want to) just how primal some of us are. I see women who are almost in despair because they haven't had a man in about a month, yet some of you seriously expect a man to go without intimacy for long periods of time and just be happy and get on with life? Well if I didn't have all this testosterone flowing through me I maybe could, but a man without testosterone isn't much of a man.

I could get it free right now if I really wanted, but lying there doing a girl who you don't fancy is not only soul destroying for the man, but it is terrible for the girl too, and I won't go through that again. Starting to see where I'm coming from now?

OP you really don't seem to know much about women at all. Why should any woman sleep with a man if it's only so he isn't frustrated? What age are you?

OP you came here for advice/opinions and all you are doing is shooting down everything everyone is saying. Maybe the reason you are doing this is tied to you lack of success (for want of a better expression). You seem very immature, sexist, arrogant and selfish. You won't get anywhere with women if you are like this.

Pug160

Pug160 wrote: »

I could get it free right now if I really wanted, but lying there doing a girl who you don't fancy is not only soul destroying for the man, but it is terrible for the girl too, and I won't go through that again.

What exactly do you suppose sleeping with an escort is like? That she's going to fancy you and it's not terrible for her, and you'll automatically fancy her and it'll be lovely and romantic?

I think you need to go speak to a counsellor about your feelings toward women in general and your issues, it'll be money a lot better spent than something like this which will leave you in exactly the same position afterwards but poorer

Roisy7

OP I wonder do you take this cynical attitude with you in nightclubs and pubs. How do you approach women? Do you approach them at all? Do you stay stuck to the bar with a pint in your hand glowering at everyone? Because you are NEVER, EVER going to pull like that.

Sometimes girls will approach men first, believe it or not. But the man has to look approachable, you know, friendly and nice.

For example, last Paddy's night I was dancing with my friends in a bar and suddenly I heard a voice behind me. Some guy who I hadn't even noticed standing at the bar, pint stuck in hand, scowling at the world like it had done him a personal injury.

"You're zero craic," he said to me. That was his actual chat-up line. And when I was like "What?" he sneered, "Oh don't want to get chatted up tonight do we?"

Do you think I went home with that guy? Did I heck. And that guy probably went home thinking, well that bitch was rude to me, just like I expected her to be, self-fulfilling his prophecy.

Forget about all these gender roles and binaries pseudo bull****. Our genders are socialisation largely, and if you treat women with the little respect you've shown in this post, you won't score. Women can tell when a man doesn't respect them, and there's probably like three men in the world who are so gorgeous that they ignore it. Be nice, be open, be friendly, stop thinking the world's so horrible, go out and be silly, have fun.

As for the hookers, you say "I could get it free right now if I really wanted, but lying there doing a girl who you don't fancy is not only soul destroying for the man, but it is terrible for the girl too, and I won't go through that again."

What on earth do you think you'll be doing with an escort? Do you think she'll fancy you?! She'll be lying there wondering when it's all over and how many more men she has to suck off that afternoon. Harsh but true.

The sort of high class hooker you've seen, the Belle du Jours etc, are very rare indeed. From a financial point of view, to get sex with one of those type of high class hookers, you might be looking at paying enough cash to buy you a second hand car. To have sex with a woman who would probably be rather having a cup of tea and a Jaffa cake at best or at worst, will be handing over most of the money to a pimp who beats and rapes her.

And personally, I would have severe reservations about dating a guy who had used escorts. It speaks volumes for their attitude towards women.

mood

I would also like to ad the most women can't tell when a man is pretending to be nice, respectful etc. Unless you attitude really CHANGES thing will stay the same for you.

Richard Hillman

Id say give it a try. Theres is no point chasing around nightclubs hoping to seal the deal and spending serious amount of money trying to reform yourself. No lady or ladies in general are worth chasing, you're better than that. If entering into a business arrangement with a lady of the night fulfills your lusts then good luck to ya. Just never sell yourself short.

endacl

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Id say give it a try. Theres is no point chasing around nightclubs hoping to seal the deal and spending serious amount of money trying to reform yourself. No lady or ladies in general are worth chasing, you're better than that. If entering into a business arrangement with a lady of the night fulfills your lusts then good luck to ya. Just never sell yourself short.

Back into thread....

Just to say... WTF?

Tried thinking of a nicer way to say it. If you're not joking, that needs a little explanation.

Richard Hillman

endacl wrote: »

Back into thread....

Just to say... WTF?

Tried thinking of a nicer way to say it. If you're not joking, that needs a little explanation.

The chap cant fulfil his sexual urges with his current situation. He is thinking about using an escort. If he really wants to, i say give it a shot if he wants to. He might enjoy it, he might hate. Either way, at least he will know.

I also dont think he should change himself just to impress the opposite sex. No woman/ male is worth impressing for romantic gain.

skyfall2012

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Id say give it a try. Theres is no point chasing around nightclubs hoping to seal the deal and spending serious amount of money trying to reform yourself. No lady or ladies in general are worth chasing, you're better than that. If entering into a business arrangement with a lady of the night fulfills your lusts then good luck to ya. Just never sell yourself short.

I smell the stench of misogyny here.

mood

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The chap cant fulfil his sexual urges with his current situation. He is thinking about using an escort. If he really wants to, i say give it a shot if he wants to. He might enjoy it, he might hate. Either way, at least he will know.

But he need to think of the possible negative side of things. It will probably make him feel worse about him self and women in general, he could catch a STI, it could ruin any future relationships etc. Would it really be worth all that?

BraziliaNZ

Standman wrote: »

My success in getting women in bars etc increased drastically when i stopped going out with the aim of "pulling" and focused on just enjoying myself and not caring what happens.

Maybe try relaxing and doing your own thing. Stop arranging your social life and image around what you think appeals to women. Women notice this and it is unattractive.

I found it the opposite, I used to hook up with girls etc when I made an effort. Then I became disillusioned and it's quite easy to fade into nothing on the bar scene unless you're actually trying. I stopped trying and just started enjoying myself with friends etc, talking crap all night, drinking etc, and every night ended the same way.
I think there must be a happy medium in between somewhere, but you definitely need to have "pulling" on the mind to some extent.

RE: hookers. Speaking from experience, you wont get much of a kick out of it, it's not worth it, I liken it to using someone else's body to masturbate, sounds horrible doesn't it? But that's what it is, essentially, she's just doing her job. Then it's all over and you're worth a wedge of money less.

Penny Dreadful

Pug160 wrote: »

Well to cut a long story fairly short I have been spending a lot of time and effort over the past couple of years ''going out on the pull''. This has has brought me negligible success so far despite spending money on designer clothing, going to the gym, getting my teeth whitened, waxing, trying to become more confident - you name it.

I have been thinking that hiring an escort a couple of weekends every month might be better than going out all the time and feeling lost and frustrated. Has anybody here taken this route? I should state that even if I did use them I'd still go out every so often and try my luck as I'm doing now - just not on a regular basis. I know there are cons to this too but I'm not deluded - I know it would only be a transaction. I don't want relationships at the moment and trying to get these so called friends with benefits seems to be more hassle than it's worth.

Opinions?

If I was out on a date with a man and I found out that he had at any stage used an escort/prostitute I'd walk away there and then.
Its a sexual service that exploits women. It can be dressed up any way you want but women are being exploited.
I would be truly disgusted to find this out about a man I was seeing and hoped to have a relationship with.

Idle Passerby

Pug160 wrote: »

Part of the reason I'm thinking about using an escort is to relieve me of my ''desperation''. There's a theory that women can subconsciously ''smell'' sex from a man - in other words success breeds success

There is nothing remotely 'successful' about a man who has to pay a woman to sleep with him.

You'r confusing self confidence with being sexually active. They are not the same thing at all. And if you do go down the escort line, you could never admit to a woman you had, she would likely have very little respect for you if she knew such a thing about you.

BraziliaNZ

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

If I was out on a date with a man and I found out that he had at any stage used an escort/prostitute I'd walk away there and then.
Its a sexual service that exploits women. It can be dressed up any way you want but women are being exploited.
I would be truly disgusted to find this out about a man I was seeing and hoped to have a relationship with.

lol, so you don't believe in people moving on with their lives and leaving things behind? People do all kinds of stuff, you shouldn't judge people on their past behaviour. Would you go out with someone who cheated in the past? Or had a drug problem? Or sold drugs?

Taltos

Penny Dreadful & BraziliaNZ - you are both here long enough to know that PI is not the forum for discussions. Such discussions while great in the other forums just result in threads going off topic and so are not welcome.

I am re-opening this thread now and a number of posts are being deleted, but further breaches of our charter will result in this thread being closed and those responsible losing their rights to post in this forum.

Can I remind all that PI is a strictly moderated forum. If you are anyway unsure please take some time now to read our charter.

Thanks
Taltos

PrincessPreach

I agree with BraziliaNz on this one. Nobody should be judged on past behaviour. We all make decisions sometimes that we regret. I'm not implying that people regret sleeping with prostitutes either. I'm sure it's different for everyone, some might like it and some might not but nobody has the right to judge anybody else on their past. Unless of course they're a convicted rapist or murderer or soemhing equally heinous.

Op, if it feels like the right decision then go for it. I wouldn't imagine it will make you feel any better though long term and is probably a waste of money but maybe it'll springboard you into confidence. Who knows but don't let anybody judge you, including future girlfriends.

RossFixxxed

Everyone has their own morals on these things, and what the won't accept. Discourse on this is better done elsewhere.

Going to a hooker is NOT going to help your self worth.

There isn't a real secret to 'figuring out' women. But simple things like hygeine, confidence, humour, soundness, fun etc are always good things in a person. Your dreadful attitude to sex and women in general is the issue. Anyone could see the chip on your shoulder a mile away.

Work on yourself and your life and let these things fall into place. I'm sure many here have met their OH in some totally random, unexpected way rather than they applied some magical 'woman attracting formula'.

I DO wish you well, but your attitude is what is holding you back and I think it is time you treated this issue as an adult and work on YOU.

pastorbarrett

I'm not sure it's at all fruitful or pertinent to engage in the supposed morality issue that's at stake for the OP. It's been highlighted; I think it's fair to say it's a matter for the OP to consider on his own terms.

OP, to some extent I can sympathize with your frustrations. Yep, I know what it's like feeling your more primal urges go unsatisfied. And yes, I know what that traipsing around the club feeling is like too. Hell, for me it can be fun, but it can so easily be a bad look too! Personally speaking, on deeper reflection and having got what I was after on a few (seldom!) occasions, I found that afterwards it was something more deep-seated I really desired. Yep, I wanted a bonk, but the effort exerted and results gained just didn't equate with the experience I truly was after i.e. someone I could engage with meaningfully and emotionally. Of course, and as is so often the way, this all occurred in hindsight. But that's just me...

Food for thought maybe, OP. Best of luck with it.

mood

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

lol, so you don't believe in people moving on with their lives and leaving things behind? People do all kinds of stuff, you shouldn't judge people on their past behaviour. Would you go out with someone who cheated in the past? Or had a drug problem? Or sold drugs?

I certainly wouldn't go out with anyone who was an addict/drug dealer/murderer etc in there past. There are some thing that can't be swept under the carpet. Saying something is in the past doesn't mean it never happened and will never happen again.

Roisy7

mood wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't go out with anyone who was an addict/drug dealer/murderer etc in there past. There are some thing that can't be swept under the carpet. Saying something is in the past doesn't mean it never happened and will never happen again.

I agree with this, I agree that people can change. Perhaps if a man had used escorts once and regretted it, or possibly had been drunk/lad's holiday/too young to know better I might be able to let it go.

But to plan using an escort like you are doing Pug81, and the dismissive attitude you display towards women, would set off alarm bells for me if I was to date someone like you in the future. Without being too hysterical about this, can you imagine your mother/sister/friends being in the situation of a prostitute? These women are human beings, it seems like you are ignoring this.

Someone mentioned earlier on about working in retail, if you work in retail and think that's soul-deadening, imagine prostitution. Well I worked in a betting office for three years and in some punter's eyes I was no better than a prostitute. I am not joking. I was constantly sexually harassed in that job and it gave me a tiny bit of insight into what being a lapdancer or something like that would be like. ****ing horrible. So yeah, maybe the women aren't all trafficked (ALOT are) but I can bet you none of them like what they're doing.