Should I get architect/engineer involved?

newbie23

Hi all, first time poster - long time browser, sorry for the long post but I've gone down alot of avenues at this stage and spent alot of time trying to get a clear idea of what we need. So now I'm here and I'm really looking for advice on building an extension to our home from some people who aren't trying to be paid and leaving me feel like we are still living in a nation of rip-offs.

We renovated our 850sq ft home in South Dublin 2009, my husband (only just married) threw his hand to simple carpentry and insulating slabbing, we had to re-wire and re-plumb the whole house, plastered and new windows, all project managed by me :P if you could call it that - anything we couldn't do ourselves we employed trades to do for us. Recently, we decided that the current layout is not suitable for a family home and planned on doing some more renovations to the existing dwelling to make the rooms bigger e.g. removal of load bearing wall (we had an engineer do specs for the steel) but when we got lots of quotes ranging from 6500-12500+vat and when you add the cost of the engineer, a new kitchen and all the time we would put into painting, putting down floor coverings and finishing skirting, I felt like I was throwing dead money away as we would save for an extension in the future after spending all this money initially.

So we decided to bite the bullet, I decided on a 20sq. metre kitchen extension, approx 5.3m x 3.8m. I did some initial floor layout drawings on a CAD-like package for what we required, we got some quotes and I'm shocked at the prices. I know it all varies depending on site access (we are mid-terraced), drainage (we have access to the soil pipe in our garden), we also require a deep (maybe 2ft) base slab as our garden slopes but we have other things in our favour like we already have a parapet type party wall built to one side of our garden which we can use and we just wanted very basic finish considering our expertise . Prices ranged from 19000-35000+vat. We had one builder we were willing to give the job to but he seems to be in touch sporadically and gives me the impression he's unreliable and I've just gone off the idea of using him. Another company, an enginneering firm have given us the second best price but it is just not achievable for us at the moment, only slightly over budget . Where are all the quotes of €85-100 per sq. ft? We want a pitched roof with vaulted ceilings, the back wall of existing dwelling removed, a skim coat finish on all walls and any areas that work has been carried out to but no painting, flooring, skirting or sanitary ware for kitchen just plumbing and drainage and plenty of sockets.

So now I'm thinking of going down the direct labour root. I've learned alot doing our own renovations and with some competent tradesmen I'm sure we could do it. If a company can do it for near enough our budget then we can do it for less, doing some basic works ourselves. We have alot of friends in the trades that can help for a decent price but the question I ask is, should I employ someone to plan the groundworks and structure and certify them? What does this cost? In your opinion would I be able to afford this fee and still do the build (and some minor interior works to the existing property) keeping within our 18000-20000 budget considering we can do some works ourselves and get friends to help out. Would a decent architect or engineer be willing to be involved in this kind of slow moving painful process. I know the price of alot of materials and what labourers are paid and there really is no way a basic build 20sq metre extension that requires just two walls can cost around 35000+vat, I trust myself not to rip me off

martinn123

Hi, maybe I can ask a few questions just for clarity

newbie23 wrote: »

So we decided to bite the bullet, I decided on a 20sq. metre kitchen extension, approx 5.3m x 3.8m.

I did some initial floor layout drawings on a CAD-like package for what we required, we got some quotes and I'm shocked at the prices.

I know it all varies depending on site access (we are mid-terraced), drainage (we have access to the soil pipe in our garden), we also require a deep (maybe 2ft) base slab as our garden slopes but we have other things in our favour like we already have a parapet type party wall built to one side of our garden which we can use

Mid Terrace, access through the house, or another route into garden?
2Ft slab, what do you mean, foundations, walls,?
Parapet wall, describe, do you want to incorporate this into the extention, is it your boundary?
Soil pipe, is this in the area you want to extend to, what's happening when the pipe enters the ground? Rainwater or Foul Sewer pipe?

Where are all the quotes of €85-100 per sq. ft? We want a pitched roof with vaulted ceilings, the back wall of existing dwelling removed,

Back wall removed, single storey house, or two storey,? Removed, as in open plan?

So now I'm thinking of going down the direct labour root.

, should I employ someone to plan the groundworks and structure and certify them? What does this cost? In your opinion would I be able to afford this fee and still do the build
keeping within our 18000-20000 budget

I know the price of alot of materials and what labourers are paid and there really is no way a basic build 20sq metre extension that requires just two walls can cost around 35000+vat, :

Subject to clarification on the above, my initial reaction is get an Engineer /Architect FIRST. An extention with just two walls needs professional input.

archtech

I would recommend that you would engage a professional to prepare construction drawings and documents and monitor the construction of your extension, its as easy to do the job right as it is wrong. That way it should ensure that the extension is build to the building regulations and everyone is pricing the same thing and not making assumptions.The cheapest quote can sometimes work out the most expensive in the long run. There's isn't a day that goes by that someone is on here posting looking for guidance on some sort of problem, many of which are as a result of no proper professional advice or poor professional advice.

An average figure of the highest and lowest shouldn't be too far the reality based on experience of similar type projects of modest specification and without significant internal works. I've yet to come across a similar type projects costing less than €100/sq.foot. The best way to see what you can get for your money is engage a QS and architect/arch tech to design and prepare a cost plan to suit your budget for the route you take, be it builder/direct labour.

While there is a parapet type wall build adjacent to your boundary, are you legally entitled to build onto it? By building from it will you be encroaching onto the neighbouring property? Is the wall of sound construction? All questions that you need to satisfy yourself about.

newbie23

Hi guys, will answer these questions and hopefully they will answer archtech questions too!!

Mid Terrace, access through the house, or another route into garden?

Yes access is only through the house, our furnishing would be removed, the downstairs would be a shell.

2Ft slab, what do you mean, foundations, walls,?

Sorry our neighbours have a huge extension and I just call what they built a slab .i.e. foundations and blockwork would need to be built to 2ft high in order to bring the floor height level with the floor height of the existing dwelling

Parapet wall, describe, do you want to incorporate this into the extention, is it your boundary?

Yes this was a boundary wall we agreed to let our neighbours build in 2010 with an agreement that we could build off it.

Soil pipe, is this in the area you want to extend to, what's happening when the pipe enters the ground? Rainwater or Foul Sewer pipe?

Yes, the foul sewer line runs through the back gardens in our area, I had alot of different ideas from different builders as to how they would approach this. Our neighbours built over theirs leaving the pipe running it's course but kept access through a dual layer suction system, what ever that is. We were offered this as part of the quotes we got but I do not like the idea of it.

Back wall removed, single storey house, or two storey,? Removed, as in open plan?

Two storey house, leaving it open plan. Our load-bearing wall that supports the floors above is T with this wall but this would be left in place.

Subject to clarification on the above, my initial reaction is get an Engineer /Architect FIRST. An extention with just two walls needs professional input.

newbie23

Sorry guys, that looks awful, I'm new and did not know to end each quote with an unquote, but I answered the questions

muffler

I'll get that tidied up for you in a minute (I hope)

newbie23

Thanks muffler!

martinn123

newbie23 wrote: »

Hi guys, will answer these questions and hopefully they will answer archtech questions too!!

Yes access is only through the house, our furnishing would be removed, the downstairs would be a shell.

Sorry our neighbours have a huge extension and I just call what they built a slab .i.e. foundations and blockwork would need to be built to 2ft high in order to bring the floor height level with the floor height of the existing dwelling

Yes this was a boundary wall we agreed to let our neighbours build in 2010 with an agreement that we could build off it.

Yes, the foul sewer line runs through the back gardens in our area, I had alot of different ideas from different builders as to how they would approach this. Our neighbours built over theirs leaving the pipe running it's course but kept access through a dual layer suction system, what ever that is. We were offered this as part of the quotes we got but I do not like the idea of it.


Two storey house, leaving it open plan. Our load-bearing wall that supports the floors above is T with this wall but this would be left in place.

Thanks for the clarifications,
In my opinion the answer to your question, in the Title, is definitely Yes.

There are a number of issues on which you need professional advice.
First, your neighbour's extention needs to be looked at the decide how building off it will comply with Reg's
Second the Sewer line needs careful examination, I am not in favour of leaving the line, inside the extension as access will be through your floor, in the event of a blockage, so the fall will have to be calculated to see if it can be diverted.

The open plan aspect requires an Engineer to design and sign off on.

Finally the access issue, while not an engineering issue, will have an impact on price, as all materials excavated, and all the building materials will have to be manually taken through the house, this will impact on the cost, as its extra labour involved

Best of luck with this.

newbie23

Thanks for your comments! Advise is appreciated

newbie23

Hi guys, I spoke to an architect looking for advise on what I want to do. I have a floor plan and its straight forward and as it's a self build, i will tender the works myself. He advised I engage a structural engineer to inspect the boundary wall, draw construction drawings for drainage layout and steelworks for back wall and site inspections and certs for same. Any idea what i should pay for this work? Anyone know a good engineer who won't cost the world? Remember gettin quotes for my internal works last time and we paid a small fortune