How do you know when someone is going to be slow ?

FixdePitchmark

Ok was behind a guy with an umbrella, fixed - yes fixed and open to his trolley. It was not even raining.
I was thinking his group would be slow.

Then his partner was one of the guys with a stance wider than O'Connell bridge - knew he would be slow.

Then, there was the guy looking cool, in the Galvin Green top walking slow- do they know this is golf, do they know you need to walk fast in winter. You are in your thirties for God sake.


I know above are sterotypes , but is there a thing you see that drives you nuts about slow play ?

The thing that annoyed me most, was that they only looked at their own game, all the groups behind them were building up - sunlight was dying.

Also - should lads in their 30s not be a bit more agile ?

Senna

When a 4 ball are all looking for the one ball, spread 50sqft apart. No one was watching the ball and they don't have a clue where it is.

And of course the tee shot on the first that doesn't make it off the tee box.

going to be a slow round.

Mister Sifter

Usually a second digit in their handicap is the first main giveaway.

FixdePitchmark

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Usually a second digit in their handicap is the first main giveaway.

I'd take a beginner over a slow walker. You have to make allowances for beginners and higher handicap players , no problem.

Lads who can play and should know better. No joking, seems to be lads around 30.

I swear these lads lost 2 holes and were oblivious to the world. Loving their slow walk .

Myksyk

Yeah ... Strollers. Move your asses lads! Also, the statues ... Guys who you think have frozen solid over the ball. Count to ten and they're still doing their paralysed address.

Leprechaun77

It is totally frustrating playing behind a slow group, however I had the joy of being part of one of these a few months ago. Two of the players we were with must have been the slowest players I have ever seen. One of the guys was around the age 28-30 mark and went through a specific routine for very single shot. He had about 4-5 practice swings at a 90 degree angle to the ball and then another 4-5 at address. He then proceeded to fall asleep over the ball for what seemed like about 10-15 seconds before swinging. I wouldn't mind but he wasn't even a good player. I might have sounded like an arsehole but I made a comment on the back nine to the effect that I felt he was thinking too much about his game and he needs to just get up and hit the ball...I said that he must have no energy left after all the practice swings to actually hit the ball.....probably should have kept my mouth shut but my game was going to muck just standing around every shot watching this routine and then him topping the ball. I think you need to maintain some tempo.

I am tolerant but by the third hole I was actually pissed off and getting frustrated. One of the other guys seemed to lose sight of his ball on every shot so I found myself tracking his ball everywhere just to save time. We let a few groups through but only on my suggestion...the others were of the opinion....'whatever, they'll finish when they finish'.....I felt a bit embarrassed tbh and was apologetic to the other groups when they eventually played through....

Mr. Larson

Leprechaun77 wrote: »

...but my game was going to muck just standing around every shot watching this routine and then him topping the ball....

I found myself tracking his ball everywhere just to save time.

This is kind of what gets me & I personally find that more off putting than being stuck behind a slow group. When you have someone in your group who is slow as hell and clueless to boot, I end up taking responsibility for the slow person, trying to speed things up, drop hints etc. All of which detracts from my own game.

JJJJNR

This part of the game really grinds my gears, its usually a just a couple of poulters just generally out to get back home to the missus as soon as possible. So many not fixing plug holes, raking bunkers and not returning divits, doing the things that delay play and are part of the game.

FixdePitchmark

JJJJNR wrote: »

This part of the game really grinds my gears, its usually a just a couple of poulters just generally out to get back home to the missus as soon as possible. So many not fixing plug holes, raking bunkers and not returning divits, doing the things that delay play and are part of the game.

Don't think anybody has pointed that out. Slow walking , too many practrice swings has come up.

Slow play is a real issue , it has been identified as a real problem for the development of the game, it has even been identified as an issue in the pro game.

And, most people do have something to get back to , work, kids and yes even a wife.

There is no reason for 4 practice swings and slow walking. I seen a lad put a rain cover on his clubs at the greenside - me standing in the rain waiting to hit ball. But his clubs were dry, could he not have walked a bit up the fairway.

Somebody who has no respect for others on the course are more likley to be disrespectable to the condition of the course IMO.

The lads who held up the whole show (in 30s too) , got their full game in , 2 groups behind them had to skip holes and not get their full game in -
They were the freezers over the put types too.

For Paws

Slow play is always the result when players have no consideration for anything but their own game, whether they play off 3 or 23. Their partners become aware of the slow pace of play and realise it's effect on the groups behind them, but I've never seen or heard anything but a mild 'best get a bit of a move on lads, we might be a bit slow' type comment directed at no-one in the group in particular.

If you know someone is a slow player, and you're asked or (worse still) drawn to play with them, then ffs say it to them.

Say it quietly, diplomatically and courteously. Make a joke of it if you can, but bring the players attention to it.

Realise it's not easy, but what choice ?

scrubber72

Usually the last to join their 4 ball on first tee, just at the time they are due off then organizes their bag and card. Chats about yesterday's footie and how the wife is wrecking his head cause he only got in at 4 am after a night out with the lads. decides on having a friendly 4 ball and throws 4 balls in the air to pick teams. Changes his mind cause him and Joe played together last week. Starts to mark his ball and organize who has honour. He waits for the group in front to be 350 yards ahead cause one time he cracked one 330 down hill and downwind and feels he is stronger now. Calls his strategy for today's game is course management but then realizes his 64 degree wedge is in the boot of his car so a lay up on seven isn't an option.
5 practice swings with his new r11s driver he brought in pro shop 30 mins ago, which he had to try out on range and thus caused him to be late.
Slices tee shot out of bounds and slams new driver into tee, goes back to bag pulls out another pro v 1 puts his special marking on it calls it a gerry Adams and it follows the first.
Rant over......for now

Danny dyers double

scrubber72 wrote: »

Usually the last to join their 4 ball on first tee, just at the time they are due off then organizes their bag and card. Chats about yesterday's footie and how the wife is wrecking his head cause he only got in at 4 am after a night out with the lads. decides on having a friendly 4 ball and throws 4 balls in the air to pick teams. Changes his mind cause him and Joe played together last week. Starts to mark his ball and organize who has honour. He waits for the group in front to be 350 yards ahead cause one time he cracked one 330 down hill and downwind and feels he is stronger now. Calls his strategy for today's game is course management but then realizes his 64 degree wedge is in the boot of his car so a lay up on seven isn't an option.
5 practice swings with his new r11s driver he brought in pro shop 30 mins ago, which he had to try out on range and thus caused him to be late.
Slices tee shot out of bounds and slams new driver into tee, goes back to bag pulls out another pro v 1 puts his special marking on it calls it a gerry Adams and it follows the first.
Rant over......for now

Great post 😊😊

FixdePitchmark

scrubber72 wrote: »

Usually the last to join their 4 ball on first tee, just at the time they are due off then organizes their bag and card. Chats about yesterday's footie and how the wife is wrecking his head cause he only got in at 4 am after a night out with the lads. decides on having a friendly 4 ball and throws 4 balls in the air to pick teams. Changes his mind cause him and Joe played together last week. Starts to mark his ball and organize who has honour. He waits for the group in front to be 350 yards ahead cause one time he cracked one 330 down hill and downwind and feels he is stronger now. Calls his strategy for today's game is course management but then realizes his 64 degree wedge is in the boot of his car so a lay up on seven isn't an option.
5 practice swings with his new r11s driver he brought in pro shop 30 mins ago, which he had to try out on range and thus caused him to be late.
Slices tee shot out of bounds and slams new driver into tee, goes back to bag pulls out another pro v 1 puts his special marking on it calls it a gerry Adams and it follows the first.
Rant over......for now

**** - that is me........

spacecoyote

Worst I've probably come across was a member of a society I used to play with. Was a 28 handicapper & despite probably playing golf for about 30 years or so, never had a prospect of getting any better than that.

Was always painful if you were stuck behind him, but I didn't really get it till I played with him, which only happened once thankfully.

He would hack away a tee shot, then walk up to his ball. Probably still 350 yrds from the hole. He would leave his bag by his ball, then walk on 40-50 yrds to have a look at what obstacles were up ahead, then walk back and hack another shot & repeat the process.

Got to the stage where we would practically race off ahead of him just trying to drag him up to speed. It's infuriating I have to say, as it throws off all the playing partners games

A slow golfer who takes 70 odd shots can be bearable, but when the guy can't break 100 you're in trouble

Oilbeefhooked!

We can and. We will talk and give out about slow play till the cows come home unfortunately! and I agree that a big part of the problem is people that, I won't call them ignorant but rather seem totally unaware of what's going on around them/behind them!

One thing I would like to see happen is for - whoever signs people in or takes the green fee at a given club , verbally tells( nicely) every single group heading to 1st tee that slow play is being monitored and to make sure and wall briskly and keep up with group ahead.
Costs the club nothing and is easy to implement.

Maybe it wouldn't help at all but I feel if those were the last words people hear from a club representative heading to the tee,then it would then be fresh in their minds and they may be more likely to show a bit of kop on and keep an eye on their surroundings instead of just blindly plodding on in their own little worlds while the course behind them is full of frustrated golfers leaning on their clubs!!??
Just a suggestion??

Keano

Only once I ever seen a course ranger on all the courses I've played who actually came out to get things moving along as the course was backed up!

Uncle Ben

If enough people spoke up and tackled the 'tortoises' there would be no problem. I have been out with lads who are held up and we don't have any worries in letting a shout at the offenders in front provided its within reason. On other occasions however, I have been out with lads who actually enjoy being in the group behind the slow players because it gives them an excuse also for playing slow, which further exaggerates the problem.

Most of us on here I would say belong to clubs where players as described in this post exist. Yet I would say that very very few on here would probably actually report or pull the players as per Rules of Golf.

ROS123

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Usually a second digit in their handicap is the first main giveaway.

Having one digit in your handicap is no guarantee of prompt play. I play regularly with high handicappers who are as quick or quicker than low handicappers. It's about golf etiquette, if I'm playing with a beginner, I will advise them that it doesn't matter how many shots they take as long as the follow some basic guidelines. Be ready to play their shot when it is their turn, walk promptly between shots, place their bag conveniently for moving on, pick up their ball when they have exceeded the max number if shots to score. Simples.

One issue I do have is the length of time some people take addressing their shots. Many golfers (new) who have had a lot of professional lessons, can take a very long time over their shots. As well as the technical advice, professionals should advise on the etiquette of prompt play. This might reduce some of the enmity towards this issue.

Senecio

I don't think you can stereotype slow players in honesty. They come in all shapes & sizes and of varying skill levels. The only way to improve the situation is for clubs to set some standards and more importantly to enforce them.

The last club that I was a member of back in Oz set a 4hr 20min limit on competition rounds with a maximum gap of 10mins from the group ahead. It was enforced with a "bundy" clock system and any violation was a 2 shot penalty for all members of the group, no appeals. It may sound a bit drastic but it worked and within 2 weeks any grumbles from the members were non-existent. In fact it made the membership base stronger as sub 4 hour rounds became the norm and visitors from other clubs migrated away from their home courses and +5hr rounds.

PARlance

Ankle braclets with a dual combo: tracking device + electric shock function.
Operated from the pro shop, you fall behind, the pro gets notified and tasers your a**.
Simple, effective and fitting of the crime

(Started of as a joke but am slowly wondering what can be done to make this happen).

GPS devices are 2 a penny now, a device could easily be given to each group and monitored as above.
Ok, the electric shock may be OTT (debatable) but an automatic text/alert could be sent if people are slow.

thewobbler

Senecio wrote: »

I don't think you can stereotype slow players in honesty. They come in all shapes & sizes and of varying skill levels. The only way to improve the situation is for clubs to set some standards and more importantly to enforce them.

The last club that I was a member of back in Oz set a 4hr 20min limit on competition rounds with a maximum gap of 10mins from the group ahead. It was enforced with a "bundy" clock system and any violation was a 2 shot penalty for all members of the group, no appeals. It may sound a bit drastic but it worked and within 2 weeks any grumbles from the members were non-existent. In fact it made the membership base stronger as sub 4 hour rounds became the norm and visitors from other clubs migrated away from their home courses and +5hr rounds.

It's one of the lost entirely sensible measures I've heard.

Some people might feel they're being rushed by a 4hr 20 min limit, but the nice thing is they'll start to identify ways to speed up their games (e.g. start thinking about a shot before you approach it) without impacting on routines.

I'd imagine there's the occasional row when a 'sprayer' continually takes their 5 mins to look for a ball that will never be found - but i'd harbour a guess that the committee who approved a clock are also the type of people who'll keep any eye out for the worst offenders, and factor this in as required.

Milkers

ajcurry123 wrote: »

GPS devices are 2 a penny now, a device could easily be given to each group and monitored as above.

When I played Castleknock last year they had this in operation.

FixdePitchmark

Milkers wrote: »

When I played Castleknock last year they had this in operation.

Bloke told me other day about it, great system. But said the policing of it requires staff to monitor.

Good idea, but a bit sad when you get that level.

GreeBo

thewobbler wrote: »

I'd imagine there's the occasional row when a 'sprayer' continually takes their 5 mins to look for a ball that will never be found - but i'd harbour a guess that the committee who approved a clock are also the type of people who'll keep any eye out for the worst offenders, and factor this in as required.

SHould you be penalised for looking for a lost ball?
What if you call the guys behind through straight away...you are entitled to look for it. If everyone looses a ball that 15 mins delay, seems unfair to give them all 2 shot penalty for that...they are not being slow.

For Paws

Some courses (& all courses imo should) post notice at intervals (maybe every third teebox) noting that 'a 2-ball /3-ball /4-ball should be here x / y / z minutes after their tee time'. Obviously this in itself is only more likely to make it obvious to certain groups that they are being held up. But as a previous poster noted, one slow group slows up all behind, and some of the groups behind begin to play more slowly too !

The GPS system tracking each group (maybe combined with a Committee member or experienced member appointed as Course Ranger & embuggied for the purpose) is obviously the ideal way.

We (own club) used to have a volunteer Course Ranger who controlled 1st Tee on Competition days and after seeing everyone off, then whizzed around in a buggy ensuring with a quiet but firm word that pace of play didn't exceed the time set by the Club. Sadly since that individuals passing no one has taken up the cudgels on behalf of 'the good times'

PARlance

Milkers wrote: »

When I played Castleknock last year they had this in operation.

*stops preparing pitch for Dragons Den*

FixdePitchmark

ajcurry123 wrote: »

*stops preparing pitch for Dragons Den*

Lol

No the electric shock is a good idea - also it gives you a shock if you have that Ping Pink Driver.

onlyfinewine

Senecio wrote: »

I don't think you can stereotype slow players in honesty. They come in all shapes & sizes and of varying skill levels. The only way to improve the situation is for clubs to set some standards and more importantly to enforce them.

The last club that I was a member of back in Oz set a 4hr 20min limit on competition rounds with a maximum gap of 10mins from the group ahead. It was enforced with a "bundy" clock system and any violation was a 2 shot penalty for all members of the group, no appeals. It may sound a bit drastic but it worked and within 2 weeks any grumbles from the members were non-existent. In fact it made the membership base stronger as sub 4 hour rounds became the norm and visitors from other clubs migrated away from their home courses and +5hr rounds.

I think this is a brilliant idea which has worked in a real situation and the beauty of it is it's simplicity.............submit your card on time after your round or you get penalised,..Simple and no need for any get-out clauses or considerations and to repeat what was said ..IT WORKS! BRAVO

Senecio

thewobbler wrote: »

It's one of the lost entirely sensible measures I've heard.

Some people might feel they're being rushed by a 4hr 20 min limit, but the nice thing is they'll start to identify ways to speed up their games (e.g. start thinking about a shot before you approach it) without impacting on routines.

I'd imagine there's the occasional row when a 'sprayer' continually takes their 5 mins to look for a ball that will never be found - but i'd harbour a guess that the committee who approved a clock are also the type of people who'll keep any eye out for the worst offenders, and factor this in as required.

I would hardly call 4hr 20min rushed. If anyone feels rushed by that they should consider themselves a slow player.

GreeBo wrote: »

SHould you be penalised for looking for a lost ball?
What if you call the guys behind through straight away...you are entitled to look for it. If everyone looses a ball that 15 mins delay, seems unfair to give them all 2 shot penalty for that...they are not being slow.

Yes they are. Unless the lost balls happen in the last couple of holes there is plenty of opportunity to make up lost time. Slow players drop a hole behind and justify it to themselves that we're entitled to look for our balls. Well paced players know that they can easily make up a dropped hole over the next 2-3 holes by making slight adjustments without impacting their round.

The game of golf is full of rules that many of us consider to be unfair (having to play out of a divot for example). Consider this a club rule that some may consider unfair. The vast majority however appreciated its introduction and I know we gained more members than we lost (if any).

blackwhite

onlyfinewine wrote: »

I think this is a brilliant idea which has worked in a real situation and the beauty of it is it's simplicity.............submit your card on time after your round or you get penalised,..Simple and no need for any get-out clauses or considerations and to repeat what was said ..IT WORKS! BRAVO

What then happens when a slow group refuses to let anyone through?

Do the groups who were held up by the gang in front then get penalised because they were caught behind an ignorant shower who wouldn't let them play through?
One slow group out at 9am could result in 20 groups all getting penalised through no fault of their own.

FixdePitchmark

blackwhite wrote: »

What then happens when a slow group refuses to let anyone through?

Do the groups who were held up by the gang in front then get penalised because they were caught behind an ignorant shower who wouldn't let them play through?
One slow group out at 9am could result in 20 groups all getting penalised through no fault of their own.

You could just penalise the first slow group.

blackwhite

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You could just penalise the first slow group.

And how do you decide that every single one of the groups behind them weren't slow in their own right, and just got lucky that the groups in front of them were being backed up?

FixdePitchmark

blackwhite wrote: »

And how do you decide that every single one of the groups behind them weren't slow in their own right, and just got lucky that the groups in front of them were being backed up?

Well it depends if it is computer based - as everything is these days. You apply an increased time allowance on all groups behind , based on how late group 1 was- a computer based system could also work out at what group the delay did not have an influence on and reset time at that point.

It would be easy enough if computer based. Sure they have it in place in Castleknock with GPS. It can say how long it takes every single group to play every hole.

I don't think I'm a fan - just give a well skilled older gent a ranger job. Way cheaper than a gps system.

It has got out of hand if gps system is needed - but if groups know they are on a clock they will move , they go out understanding time is an issue in golf.

thewobbler

blackwhite wrote: »

And how do you decide that every single one of the groups behind them weren't slow in their own right, and just got lucky that the groups in front of them were being backed up?

This really isn't complicated. If every group leaves at even intervals, they should come back at even intervals (within reason).

If the maximum time is 4 hrs 20 mins.

Group 1 goes out at 9.00am and is back at 1.00pm - They're well ahead of the pace, dead on.
Group 2 goes out 9.10am and is back at 1.20pm - They're ahead of the pace, dead on.
Group 3 goes out at 9.20am and is back at 2.00pm - They took 4.40, and are definitely a problem. Two shots off all around.
Group 4 goes out at 9.30am and is back at 2.10pm - They also took 4.40, but are exactly 10 mins behind the previous group, so played at the right pace.
Group 5 goes out at 9.40am, and is back at 2.30pm - They took 4.50. Although the problem started at group 3, these fellas have added another 10 mins on as well, so they're a problem too. Two shots off all around.
Group 6 goes out at 9.40am and is back at 2.40pm - We're still at 4.50 a round, but these guys have kept up with the pace of the group in front. No penalty.

And so on...


The big issue with this system is the potential for rows within a group.

To use my earlier "sprayer" example. One of my fourball loses balls at three holes on the front nine, and takes his allotted five mins on each occasions. He is unapologetic; it is his right.

As a result, we are touch and go to make the 4.20 time. It's the 18th. I've played perfectly fine all day and haven't even looked for a ball - but I put this one into the trees. I've kept an eye on it, and know where it should be, but play a provisional just in case. When I get there, the ball is not in plain sight. If I take my five mins, our group is going to be penalised two strokes. If I don't, I'm being penalised two strokes anyway. that's a punch-up waiting to happen.

link_2007

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I don't think I'm a fan - just give a well skilled older gent a ranger job. Way cheaper than a gps system.

I played Esker Hills over the Christmas and they had a ranger on duty. He was without a doubt one of the nicest people I have ever met. He would park the buggy a bit down the fairway and signal that you were safe to hit and then let you know that your drive was safe. He'd hang around until the group arrived down and exchange pleasantries and chit chat before advising you on your next shot and either waiting to watch the approach shot or heading off to his next destination. He gave me some advise to one approach shot and when it landed close, he was genuinely more excited than I was.

He never mentioned time or hurrying up (we weren't slow to start with) but he didn't need to. Just the sight that was a ranger on duty was enough to know that you shouldn't be hanging around.

In my short time playing golf it is the first time I have played a course and noticed a ranger on duty and I must say it couldn't have been a more different experience that some of those that I have read posted on here (One from Kevin Markham particularly springs to mind).

FixdePitchmark

link_2007 wrote: »

I played Esker Hills over the Christmas and they had a ranger on duty. He was without a doubt one of the nicest people I have ever met. He would park the buggy a bit down the fairway and signal that you were safe to hit and then let you know that your drive was safe. He'd hang around until the group arrived down and exchange pleasantries and chit chat before advising you on your next shot and either waiting to watch the approach shot or heading off to his next destination. He gave me some advise to one approach shot and when it landed close, he was genuinely more excited than I was.

He never mentioned time or hurrying up (we weren't slow to start with) but he didn't need to. Just the sight that was a ranger on duty was enough to know that you shouldn't be hanging around.

In my short time playing golf it is the first time I have played a course and noticed a ranger on duty and I must say it couldn't have been a more different experience that some of those that I have read posted on here (One from Kevin Markham particularly springs to mind).

Came across the exact same as that , Rathsallagh - see the thing is they, set the tone for the day. It is in the back of your mind - it does not need to ruin the day or put unnecessary pressure on you.

The real problem is if the person , has not got the skills and acts with inappropriate authority - it is a skiful job, to do it right.

But, it would cost 20 to 30 grand I guess ?

I'm told clubs are struggling , so this is not realistic. I got the feeling Esker hills gets a large number of societies and passing trade, Rathsallagh too , so makes more sense in places like that.

Sorry - started this thread as a half joke - but the way those lads in their 30s were walking and not once looking around -would do your head in, dangerous too. When I'm playing golf - I make sure I know where the next group is and the group behind, for my own safety and the safety of others.


This slow play issue, seems to be a real serious issue for people. I was shocked to hear about the GPS system, Is it there for commercial reasons - more green fees - Castleknock is another club with large passing trade.

GreeBo

Senecio wrote: »

Yes they are. Unless the lost balls happen in the last couple of holes there is plenty of opportunity to make up lost time. Slow players drop a hole behind and justify it to themselves that we're entitled to look for our balls. Well paced players know that they can easily make up a dropped hole over the next 2-3 holes by making slight adjustments without impacting their round.

No they are not, you missed my point.

As soon as I loose a ball I will call the group behind through (If Im planning on spending time looking for it)

If each member of my group loses a ball, thats 15 mins "later" than expected my group will return, but we havent held anyone else up and are not a slow group.

Why should we be penalised in this scenario?

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Came across the exact same as that , Rathsallagh - see the thing is they, set the tone for the day. It is in the back of your mind - it does not need to ruin the day or put unnecessary pressure on you.

The real problem is if the person , has not got the skills and acts with inappropriate authority - it is a skiful job, to do it right.

But, it would cost 20 to 30 grand I guess ?

I'm told clubs are struggling , so this is not realistic. I got the feeling Esker hills gets a large number of societies and passing trade, Rathsallagh too , so makes more sense in places like that.

Sorry - started this thread as a half joke - but the way those lads in their 30s were walking and not once looking around -would do your head in, dangerous too. When I'm playing golf - I make sure I know where the next group is and the group behind, for my own safety and the safety of others.


This slow play issue, seems to be a real serious issue for people. I was shocked to hear about the GPS system, Is it there for commercial reasons - more green fees - Castleknock is another club with large passing trade.

Sorry, what age were these lads again? I missed it the 17th time you mentioned 30's... :rolleyes:

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

No they are not, you missed my point.

As soon as I loose a ball I will call the group behind through (If Im planning on spending time looking for it)

If each member of my group loses a ball, thats 15 mins "later" than expected my group will return, but we havent held anyone else up and are not a slow group.

Why should we be penalised in this scenario?

Don't lose a ball then.

Only joking GreeBo.

Sorry , don't play too much formal golf yet - so could you explain.
"As soon as". Could that lad not walk up to his ball fast, start looking for first minute, let others take shots , 3 mins up all look for 2 minutes. Would letting the group behind through at very start not cause more problems?

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, what age were these lads again? I missed it the 17th time you mentioned 30's... :rolleyes:

Your in the mood today GreeBo - will stay clear.

I think it is important- these are lads who are watching pros too much and copying their routines. Then putting hands on hips and banging club, freezing over the ball - you never see lads in their 50s at that - generalisation.

I will remove my trousers now for a whip - 18 times, 19 times , 20 times up to 30.

the_syco

Senna wrote: »

No one was watching the ball and they don't have a clue where it is.

Personally, I can't track my own ball. If I look up midshot, it'll feck up the shot, and if I look after I shoot, I usually can't see the ball So if the person I'm playing with doesn't see where my ball went, I'll sometimes just take another shot. I'm only playing with one of the lads, so don't know how many rules that breaks, but I'm not going to look for a ball if I don't know where it's gone.

=-=

You know you're playing slow when a four-ball catches up :P Let them through, and they were gone by the time we (me and two mates) got onto the next hole. I'll probably be the "slow" player, as some of my shots are woeful, but meh, we'll let ye pass if yer playing fast.

FixdePitchmark

the_syco wrote: »

Personally, I can't track my own ball. If I look up midshot, it'll feck up the shot, and if I look after I shoot, I usually can't see the ball So if the person I'm playing with doesn't see where my ball went, I'll sometimes just take another shot. I'm only playing with one of the lads, so don't know how many rules that breaks, but I'm not going to look for a ball if I don't know where it's gone.

=-=

You know you're playing slow when a four-ball catches up :P Let them through, and they were gone by the time we (me and two mates) got onto the next hole. I'll probably be the "slow" player, as some of my shots are woeful, but meh, we'll let ye pass if yer playing fast.

Lol - great post.

Are your eyes ok - no joking , try the yellow balls , easier to see.

Are you in your 30s ?

BraveDonut

My four-ball was first out on the course on Saturday and the topic of pace-of-play came up for two reasons:
1. The group behind us were in buggies and we expected them to be breathing down our necks all day.
2. We felt that, as the first group out, we had a responsibility to set the pace for the day

We are all friends, so there would be no problem if you were told to "hurry the f**K up!". We played "ready golf" and just kept moving all day.

15-holes singles in just over 3 hours and the buggies never caught us. It was refreshing to play like that and still have a laugh together.

If the first few groups of the day are slow it sets the tone for the day - sometimes leading to some very slow rounds in the afternoon.

Ben1977

Played the weekend with 2 new members. Firstly one of the lads was late so we let the 4ball on the practice green go ahead.
At every hole they walked as slow as they liked. By the finish of the 4th it had taken us an hour for a 4ball. The lads had high handicaps and were just slow about everything.

An example of what went on was on the first and I knew I was in for a long round. We all hit our approaches 2 lads short, me long and the last player 80 yds short into a bunker. As the lad was sorting himself our in the bunker, I managed to walk past him up the LHS and around the green. Parked the bag near the next tee and had wedge in hand. I looked down the fairway, he had't even hit yet. when he did, he did't get it over the lip. The other 2 lads were actually standing 20 yards behind him.

I nearly pulled my hair out. I had said a couple of times to all that we need to get a move on.
They we actually to polite, waiting on who had the honor, and who was nearest the pin when there was a couple of inches between each ball.

Mad, when you think that in the winter it should be faster with the rough cut back, softer greens and forward tees and bunkers sometimes out of play.

blackwhite

thewobbler wrote: »

This really isn't complicated. If every group leaves at even intervals, they should come back at even intervals (within reason).

If the maximum time is 4 hrs 20 mins.

Group 1 goes out at 9.00am and is back at 1.00pm - They're well ahead of the pace, dead on.
Group 2 goes out 9.10am and is back at 1.20pm - They're ahead of the pace, dead on.
Group 3 goes out at 9.20am and is back at 2.00pm - They took 4.40, and are definitely a problem. Two shots off all around.
Group 4 goes out at 9.30am and is back at 2.10pm - They also took 4.40, but are exactly 10 mins behind the previous group, so played at the right pace.
Group 5 goes out at 9.40am, and is back at 2.30pm - They took 4.50. Although the problem started at group 3, these fellas have added another 10 mins on as well, so they're a problem too. Two shots off all around.
Group 6 goes out at 9.40am and is back at 2.40pm - We're still at 4.50 a round, but these guys have kept up with the pace of the group in front. No penalty.

And so on...


The big issue with this system is the potential for rows within a group.

To use my earlier "sprayer" example. One of my fourball loses balls at three holes on the front nine, and takes his allotted five mins on each occasions. He is unapologetic; it is his right.

As a result, we are touch and go to make the 4.20 time. It's the 18th. I've played perfectly fine all day and haven't even looked for a ball - but I put this one into the trees. I've kept an eye on it, and know where it should be, but play a provisional just in case. When I get there, the ball is not in plain sight. If I take my five mins, our group is going to be penalised two strokes. If I don't, I'm being penalised two strokes anyway. that's a punch-up waiting to happen.

There's still too many problems with it.

What about the group that takes 4.50 because they are all taking 7s and 8s on each hole, but let each following group through without delay. Once they aren't actually causing delays for anyone else should they still be penalised?

Or in the scenario you painted above, what if Group 5 were up the back of the group in front all day until the 17th, where they had two balls lost in the rough that added 10 minutes, but if it wasn't for the delays caused by the groups in front they would have already made up more than the 10 min lost?

The simple thing is to have a good pro-active ranger on duty. They can see for themselves what's causing problems, and deal with them as they arise.

Any system that involves someone sitting in the clubhouse looking at data without actually getting out on course and seeing what's actually causing the delays is going to throw out too many mistaken penalties.

the_syco

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Lol - great post.

Are your eyes ok - no joking , try the yellow balls , easier to see.

Are you in your 30s ?

Yes, in my 30's :pac: It seems people take up golf in the 16-20 and 25-30 ranges so probably explains why the "30's" are getting bashed so much, as those stating in the 16-20 range usually start off on the par 3's. The reason I play on the full golf courses is that for the most part, green fees for a full round of golf is sometimes only a few euro extra more than a par 3 if I shop around.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Are your eyes ok - no joking , try the yellow balls , easier to see.

It's more that I'm still learning (but tbh, who isn't?). I used to look at the ball when I hit, but found that when I did so, my right heel would lift, and this would cause my shot to go wide. Very wide. Have "unlearned" that bad habit, and now learning to swing correctly, and look at the ball after I hit it, as opposed to when hitting it, if that makes sense.

=-=

Oh, and when I say I'm a "slow" golfer, 4 hours to 4 and a half hours would be the usual game for the two or three ball game, so it seems what I call slow, and what other people call slow are two different things - if I can't find a ball within a few minutes, I'll take the hit, and drop a new one.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Don't lose a ball then.

Only joking GreeBo.

Sorry , don't play too much formal golf yet - so could you explain.
"As soon as". Could that lad not walk up to his ball fast, start looking for first minute, let others take shots , 3 mins up all look for 2 minutes. Would letting the group behind through at very start not cause more problems?

It depends on the scenario, there are many instances when you would want all 3 looking for the ball, if its in the hay for example.

Also, the group behind should be right behind, if you look for a min while the other two hit, you still have 4 mins of looking time left, more than enough for the guys behind to be ready to play, specially if you lost it around the green for example.

thewobbler

blackwhite wrote: »

There's still too many problems with it.


Any system that involves someone sitting in the clubhouse looking at data without actually getting out on course and seeing what's actually causing the delays is going to throw out too many mistaken penalties.

Yes, and agreed.

But here's the thing. 2-3 months of a system like this (and all the inevitable fall outs that go with it) would do more to improve slow play in a club, than 1,000 letters, notices and emails to members. It would get people thinking, talking, and addressing the issue as a collective. Very few people will admit to being slow golfers, and even those should be able to acknowledge what they can do to speed up between shots.

Golf as a sport in Ireland is on the decline, and courses are in trouble. Apart from cost, the sheer time involved is the single biggest barrier to entry, and it cannot afford to become standard to require 5 hours for a round.

FixdePitchmark

thewobbler wrote: »

Yes, and agreed.

But here's the thing. 2-3 months of a system like this (and all the inevitable fall outs that go with it) would do more to improve slow play in a club, than 1,000 letters, notices and emails to members. It would get people thinking, talking, and addressing the issue as a collective. Very few people will admit to being slow golfers, and even those should be able to acknowledge what they can do to speed up between shots.

Golf as a sport in Ireland is on the decline, and courses are in trouble. Apart from cost, the sheer time involved is the single biggest barrier to entry, and it cannot afford to become standard to require 5 hours for a round.

Great point wobbler.

A big factor for me not joining a club, was the time involved - I want to be there and back in half a working day - 5 to 6 hours is none runner.

Some lad here were slagging lads who need to get back to something - I'm afraid that if golf clubs want young people to join clubs , they are really limiting their market.

They are limiting me anyway, that is for sure - I want to go play and be back in 4 hour to 4.5 hours max.

I think the course design is a real factor too, I'm seeing this a bit more now. There is a great course near me , that due to land and design , it is 3.5 hour rounds max. I never considered that before, but it is great, you can take your time have a little practice and be out in 4 hours.

onlyfinewine

blackwhite wrote: »

There's still too many problems with it.

What about the group that takes 4.50 because they are all taking 7s and 8s on each hole, but let each following group through without delay. Once they aren't actually causing delays for anyone else should they still be penalised?

Maybe they should learn either to pick up or speed up so that they get up to normal pace (which should be achievable)

Or in the scenario you painted above, what if Group 5 were up the back of the group in front all day until the 17th, where they had two balls lost in the rough that added 10 minutes, but if it wasn't for the delays caused by the groups in front they would have already made up more than the 10 min lost?

Normal pace was working out at less than 4 hours 20 so there should still be a margin for some time to find balls.

The simple thing is to have a good pro-active ranger on duty. They can see for themselves what's causing problems, and deal with them as they arise.

But at what cost?

Any system that involves someone sitting in the clubhouse looking at data without actually getting out on course and seeing what's actually causing the delays is going to throw out too many mistaken penalties.

Penalties only apply if you do not meet the time allotted, and the system worked and people responded because they had targets to achieve which were known beforehand and doable.

The main point that is perhaps not being stressed enough is that it works! If people feel that they have a case they can make it to the committee afterwards and any required adjustments can be made, but in the meantime play is being speeded up significantly and at very little cost.
The simplest ideas are always the best.

nomunnnofun

thewobbler wrote: »

This really isn't complicated. If every group leaves at even intervals, they should come back at even intervals (within reason).

If the maximum time is 4 hrs 20 mins.

Group 1 goes out at 9.00am and is back at 1.00pm - They're well ahead of the pace, dead on.
Group 2 goes out 9.10am and is back at 1.20pm - They're ahead of the pace, dead on.
Group 3 goes out at 9.20am and is back at 2.00pm - They took 4.40, and are definitely a problem. Two shots off all around.
Group 4 goes out at 9.30am and is back at 2.10pm - They also took 4.40, but are exactly 10 mins behind the previous group, so played at the right pace.
Group 5 goes out at 9.40am, and is back at 2.30pm - They took 4.50. Although the problem started at group 3, these fellas have added another 10 mins on as well, so they're a problem too. Two shots off all around.
Group 6 goes out at 9.40am and is back at 2.40pm - We're still at 4.50 a round, but these guys have kept up with the pace of the group in front. No penalty.

And so on...


The big issue with this system is the potential for rows within a group.

To use my earlier "sprayer" example. One of my fourball loses balls at three holes on the front nine, and takes his allotted five mins on each occasions. He is unapologetic; it is his right.

As a result, we are touch and go to make the 4.20 time. It's the 18th. I've played perfectly fine all day and haven't even looked for a ball - but I put this one into the trees. I've kept an eye on it, and know where it should be, but play a provisional just in case. When I get there, the ball is not in plain sight. If I take my five mins, our group is going to be penalised two strokes. If I don't, I'm being penalised two strokes anyway. that's a punch-up waiting to happen.

I think this system when timing from start to finish point is a bit flawed as people have already pointed out. The two stroke penalty can be abused as mentioned before. Also see the two below scenarios.

1. My group starts and because we are so slow, we hold people up the whole way around until 16th hole when we let the group behind through. We finish out and end up only 10 minutes behind the group ahead of us. Total playing time 5 hours

2. My group tee off and after losing 2 balls on the 3rd hole, let the group behind play through. They then hold everyone up for the day and refuse to let us play back through. Total playing time 5 hours.

I think an alternative method would be to have a GPS tracking how far behind the group ahead of you. If you fall 20 minutes behind, an alert fires in which you have 20 minutes more to catch back up or let a group pass by. At this point you get deducted 2 strokes. Of course, if the group behind are searching for a ball and is not ready to play through at this point, you are f**ked. Ok, back to the ranger I guess.:P