If Hitler Won the War

chops018

http://headrambles.com/2011/11/15/if-hitler-won-the-war/

Do you ever wonder what the world would be like if Hitler had won the last war?

It’s impossible to say precisely of course, but we can take a rough guess.

First of all, Hitler may have had some fairly weird ideas but he was no fool. He wouldn’t have just created a vast Germany spreading across Europe. That would be too difficult to control. It would have made sense to leave each country as it was and even to allow democratic elections to keep the people mollified. Needless to say, those democratically elected governments would have no say and would be mere puppets, with Berlin pulling the strings. If the people elected someone who was opposed to Berlin, he would be quietly removed and replaced with a party lapdog.

Hitler, amongst other things was a health fanatic. He believed in total abstinence from alcohol, was a vegetarian and had a hatred of smoking. It is likely therefore that there would be a load of restrictions on what we ate or drank. He couldn’t have banned alcohol or tobacco as that would have led to outright rebellion, but he would have imposed severe restrictions……

Hang on………

This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar?

keithclancy

Not really.


http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/institutional_affairs/treaties/treaties_ecsc_en.htm

Thus the idea of pooling Franco-German coal and steel production came about and the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was formed. This choice was not only economic but also political, as these two raw materials were the basis of the industry and power of the two countries. The underlying political objective was to strengthen Franco-German solidarity, banish the spectre of war and open the way to European integration.

ejmaztec

chops018 wrote: »

http://headrambles.com/2011/11/15/if-hitler-won-the-war/

Do you ever wonder what the world would be like if Hitler had won the last war?

It’s impossible to say precisely of course, but we can take a rough guess.

First of all, Hitler may have had some fairly weird ideas but he was no fool. He wouldn’t have just created a vast Germany spreading across Europe. That would be too difficult to control. It would have made sense to leave each country as it was and even to allow democratic elections to keep the people mollified. Needless to say, those democratically elected governments would have no say and would be mere puppets, with Berlin pulling the strings. If the people elected someone who was opposed to Berlin, he would be quietly removed and replaced with a party lapdog.

Hitler, amongst other things was a health fanatic. He believed in total abstinence from alcohol, was a vegetarian and had a hatred of smoking. It is likely therefore that there would be a load of restrictions on what we ate or drank. He couldn’t have banned alcohol or tobacco as that would have led to outright rebellion, but he would have imposed severe restrictions……

Hang on………

This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar?

We'd all be walking round in our Hugo Boss designer overalls looking grim.:(

SEPT 23 1989

Germany today has achieved what Hitler never could

Nodin

chops018 wrote: »

.....

First of all, Hitler may have had some fairly weird ideas but he was no fool. ............

...started a war on two fronts, never authorised total war mobiliation of industry until the later stages of the war, disorganised and overlapping lines of command and supply, simplistic belief in "super weapons", driving out some of the most talented Germans who fled to the states and elsewhere......no, I'd say he was a bit of a fool allright.

kneemos

We would be drinking decent beer.

keithclancy

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Germany today has achieved what Hitler never could

Ah leave it out.

Nodin

kneemos wrote: »

We would be drinking decent beer.

Decent sausage and choccie too.

kfallon

What's with all the Hitler threads lately?

Here's a little treat for ye......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqZrAhbnGoQ

Urquell

If Hitler won ...

- We would be driving German Cars
- They would be crushing our National Football teams
- Our Kids would be learning German
- Berlin would be making our Economic decisions for us

Bullet dodged eh?

mconigol

Well for starters we'd all be going around doing whatever Germany demanded....imagine. IMAGINE! Try really hard to imagine that OP.

Edit: Also all have traffic lights would be like this: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/2533922845_fb0601f8e4.jpg

imitation

chops018 wrote: »

Hitler, amongst other things was a health fanatic. He believed in total abstinence from alcohol, was a vegetarian and had a hatred of smoking. It is likely therefore that there would be a load of restrictions on what we ate or drank. He couldn’t have banned alcohol or tobacco as that would have led to outright rebellion, but he would have imposed severe restrictions……

Hang on………

This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar?

Yes, because taxing booze, burgers and fags is totally the next step on your evil master plan after kicking off a world war and the systematic extermination of millions.

Retrovertigo

Here we go again.

Here's a new idea, do you tip delivery drivers and waiters, OP?

Zebra3

ejmaztec wrote: »

We'd all be walking round in our Hugo Boss designer overalls looking grim.:(

Better than all those walking around wearing tracksuits or pyjamas all the time.

Stillweak

Probably my last post on boards as I want to close account anyway. Going to get a lot of stick for this, but .........

I wonder about it all the time.

No Israeli land grabbing and imposing their own slightly more subtle holocaust.

No 9/11

Probably a united Ireland speaking German
(revenge to Britain and reward to our non involvement in war)

guerrilla warfare in most counties under German rule, which would be ruthlessly put down

copeyhagen

we wouldnt get the same threads over and over....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74188200

Burky126

This was a subject of a HBO mini series staring yer man from Blade Runner.Check it out if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5NV0LNtwY

Rented Mule

mconigol wrote: »

Edit: Also all have traffic lights would be like this: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/2533922845_fb0601f8e4.jpg

Why do they have pimps as their traffic lights ?

I will say that they look fabulous in green, amber and red.

seamus

If Germany had won, there would have been no Cold War. Instead there would have been a fairly monumental struggle between the US, the Soviets and the 3rd Reich as three superpowers all with enormous military capabilities and nuclear arsenals.

Although in order for Germany not to have lost, you'd need to roll back on some of the decisive defeats, such as the defeat in the Russian winter and the D-day landings. If Germany had won these, then they may have emerged as the strongest of the 3 superpowers and Russia and the USA may have agreed to stop the fighting in order to avoid getting their asses kicked.

If D-Day had failed, it's plausible that the U.S. would have pulled out of Europe completely to focus on the war against Japan and Germany would have then flattened the UK and gained complete control. If the U.S. then decided to get involved again after Japan surrendered, it would probably have a lobbed a couple of nukes in. But at that stage the Germans would probably have their own nukes, so that would be a big gamble.
Most likely, in the absence of any serious fighting in Europe with a German victory and therefore no reason for the US to get involved, there would be an uneasy truce between the three. At some point the Nazis and the Soviets would have made a play to conquer eachother, or would engage in proxy battles in Africa and the middle-east.

What the US would do could go either way. As the "last bastion" of democracy and freedom and faced with two enemies of enormous strength, they may have decided to become ultra-insular and protect their own interests. Or they may have been concerned that the other two would conspire to conquer South America before making a move on the USA, and fought with Russia versus the Germans or vice-versa.

Crooked Jack

chops018 wrote: »

http://headrambles.com/2011/11/15/if-hitler-won-the-war/

Do you ever wonder what the world would be like if Hitler had won the last war?

It’s impossible to say precisely of course, but we can take a rough guess.

First of all, Hitler may have had some fairly weird ideas but he was no fool. He wouldn’t have just created a vast Germany spreading across Europe. That would be too difficult to control. It would have made sense to leave each country as it was and even to allow democratic elections to keep the people mollified. Needless to say, those democratically elected governments would have no say and would be mere puppets, with Berlin pulling the strings. If the people elected someone who was opposed to Berlin, he would be quietly removed and replaced with a party lapdog.

Hitler, amongst other things was a health fanatic. He believed in total abstinence from alcohol, was a vegetarian and had a hatred of smoking. It is likely therefore that there would be a load of restrictions on what we ate or drank. He couldn’t have banned alcohol or tobacco as that would have led to outright rebellion, but he would have imposed severe restrictions……

Hang on………

This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar?

All your answers are in here...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/19/PKD-high_castle-penguinclassics.jpg/175px-PKD-high_castle-penguinclassics.jpg

dd972

People would speak German as a lingua franca, it wouldn't supplant any of the local indigenous languages, If Hitler hadn't been such an idiot and megalomaniac ie; invading Russia and overriding his Generals then the Nazi's would have coasted WW2.

I don't think that such an extreme ideology would have survived though, they'd have been under attack constantly by resistance movements.

Zebra3

seamus wrote: »

Although in order for Germany not to have lost, you'd need to roll back on some of the decisive defeats, such as the defeat in the Russian winter and the D-day landings.

D-day landing meant nothing.

Germany was finished at that stage.

Germany lost over 3,500,000 men on the eastern front and "just" 200,000 on the western front.

The D-day landings were about stopping Soviet western expansion and not about defeating Germany. The US and the British left that to the USSR.

WindSock

We'd be all be walking around saying 'das ist not eine booby' all day. Maybe.
Well I would. Probably.

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote: »

D-day landing meant nothing.

Germany was finished at that stage.

Germany lost over 3,500,000 men on the eastern front and "just" 200,000 on the western front.

The D-day landings were about stopping Soviet western expansion and not about defeating Germany. The US and the British left that to the USSR.

here we go:rolleyes:

gobnaitolunacy

Thank God it never came about.

I can't imagine pickled cabbage being appetising.

Herb Powell

To be quite honest, when I see people saying "Look, Germany controls Europe today, they actually won!", or any such equivalent, it looks no different to me than the people in America who call Obama a "muslim communist".

bullvine

Its possible that they may never been able to get to Britain as well, the sea held a massive advantage, so even if they hadn't invaded Russia but stopped with Poland, they may have been content with mainland Europe.

donvito99

Stillweak wrote: »

No Israeli land grabbing and imposing their own slightly more subtle holocaust.

As you said yourself, I'm surprised no one has brought you up on this.

That's an abysmally obnoxious thing to say, how dare you compare the two.

Zebra3

Fratton Fred wrote: »

here we go:rolleyes:

Yeah, great point. :rolleyes:

Pyr0

Zebra3 wrote: »

D-day landing meant nothing.

Germany was finished at that stage.

Germany lost over 3,500,000 men on the eastern front and "just" 200,000 on the western front.

The D-day landings were about stopping Soviet western expansion and not about defeating Germany. The US and the British left that to the USSR.

It was the Eastern Front that killed Germany, not the Western Front.

Alias G

I don't know why posters are suggesting there would somehow have been a three way stand off among the US, 3rd reich and USSR superpowers post world war II. The USSR would have been far from contending as a superpower for many decades. Most of her industry and resources would be entirely under the control of Greater Germany and cities such as Leningrad would have been entirely ethnically cleansed of Slavs and populated with Germans. It was the whole point of lebensraum after all.

seamus

Zebra3 wrote: »

D-day landing meant nothing.

Germany was finished at that stage.

There's more at play usually than pure numbers. An exceptionally decisive victory for Germany on that day could have been the morale boost that they needed to hold Europe against the Soviets. Not least because they may have been able to reduce the resources they needed to hold the west.

The defeats in the East certainly were a massive loss to the Germans and an indication that they would really struggle to hold the eastern front. D-Day was smaller by comparison but dealt the crushing blow to Nazi morale - they were now flanked on both sides by enemies who were winning. It was then the German forces started collapsing and breaking ranks.

Would the Soviets have destroyed Germany without D-Day? Possibly, but probably not in less than a year (as happened after D-Day), and certainly not without much larger casualities. Would the D-Day landings have been as decisive without the Soviets wins? Probably not.

Like I mention though, a scenario in which the Germans "won" would require that the Germans won in the east (or lost less badly) and won on D-Day. It would also have required that Hitler didn't become a raving loony towards the end.

Davidth88

An interesting one.

If Germany won World War 2 , I imagine they would have occupied the British Isles ( as in the geographic area ..... to stop any nonsense ) .

You would have seen the continuation of the persecutions of the racial minorities , so in Ireland you could expect any Jews , travellers etc wiped out.

Ireland would be used to supply the German 3rd Reich , so any exports would go there , you could expect a lot of men to be deported for slave labour etc

Really not a nice idea TBH.

If you look how they treated the Channel Isles for example , all radios banned lots of people deported .

Think of North Korea really .

Can't think of many up sides TBH

exiledelbows

mconigol wrote: »

Edit: Also all have traffic lights would be like this: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/2533922845_fb0601f8e4.jpg

Not true, they're an East German post-WW2 variation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelmännchen

wendell borton

Germany would have been a far stronger position if their policies had not forced some of the greatest scientest of that time out of the country, while at the same time constraining the remaining ones with their ideology.

B.A._Baracus

How come nobody has posted this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpvqn0fT1OY

Thats what would happen? :pac: :P

Wibbs

Stillweak wrote: »

Probably my last post on boards as I want to close account anyway. Going to get a lot of stick for this, but .........

I wonder about it all the time.

No Israeli land grabbing and imposing their own slightly more subtle holocaust.

Well hitler and some of his cronies were initially quite supportive of a Jewish homeland/Israel as one "solution" to the "Jewish problem", so Israel may well have come to be anyway.

No 9/11

No doubt other 911's would have happened.

Probably a united Ireland speaking German
(revenge to Britain and reward to our non involvement in war)

Hardly. Hitler wasn't particularly interested in Ireland. Chances are with the UK out of the war, he wouldn't have bothered with engaging with Ireland beyond low level diplomacy. Now at the wannasee conference when they were deciding what to do about Jews in Europe they reckoned Ireland had 4000 living here so that might have interested them, though they were wrong on the numbers.

guerrilla warfare in most counties under German rule, which would be ruthlessly put down

Maybe not. If hostilites had died down officially, guerrilla war may have also died down quickly enough, especially if the reich economy benefited locals. Where they really fooked up was with their daft racial purity guff. If they had said to the Russians "do you wanna be part of the reich?" they would have found many, if not millions of Russians who wanted shot of Stalin and his bully boys. I read one account by a russian pilot stationed outside a village in Russia who noticed the locals started breaking out their religious stuff and going to church services again and the same locals were suprised the germans allowed that. The locals even handed u the local party spy(apparently these were usually schoolteachers) There was a lot of hostility to Stalin and the party. A hostility the germans daftly didn't take advantage of.

One notion I'd have, odd though it may seem, is that if Hitler had won adnd had won early enough(UK sues for uneasy peace/non involvement in Europe in 1940 and Russia had been taken) then the holocaust may not have happened to nearly the degree it did. They had most certainly been persecuting Jews from early on, but the wholesale mechanised final solution came later after the Brits had held out and they were bogged down in Russia. The aforementioned Wannasee conference definitely has the feeling of "we need to do this as fast as possible before the jig is up" about it.

Wow, Godwin's Law was proved in the very first post :pac:

GalwayGuy2

The aforementioned Wannasee conference definitely has the feeling of "we need to do this as fast as possible before the jig is up" about it.

That's even worse. They were driven by hate that they were prepared to die for their ideology?:S

Wibbs

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

That's even worse. They were driven by hate that they were prepared to die for their ideology?:S

Pretty much yea. They diverted vast resources to it too. Resources they could have aimed elsewhere in winning the war. Mad.

FloatingVoter

We'd have wound up being ruled by Germany. That of course is not happening presently.

Zebra3

seamus wrote: »

There's more at play usually than pure numbers. An exceptionally decisive victory for Germany on that day could have been the morale boost that they needed to hold Europe against the Soviets. Not least because they may have been able to reduce the resources they needed to hold the west.

It wasn't gonna happen.

The German air force had been destroyed by the USSR. Germans defending Occupied France had no aerial cover. D-Day was a battle for the invading forces to lose. Britain and the US waited until Germany was on her knees so as to minimise losses of their own troops and to allow Germany and the USSR to destroy each other.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well hitler and some of his cronies were initially quite supportive of a Jewish homeland/Israel as one "solution" to the "Jewish problem", so Israel may well have come to be anyway.

Yeah, something that is "conveniently" written out of history was the collaboration between Nazi Germany and the Zionist movement in getting jews to Palestine.

FloatingVoter

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yeah, something that is "conveniently" written out of history was the collaboration between Nazi Germany and the Zionist movement in getting jews to Palestine.

Eichmann was sent to Palestine and promptly got deported investigating this possibility. Another madcap idea was resettling the Jewish people in Madagascar. These were all shelved. The extermination of the Jewish race in Europe is clearly outlined in Mein Kampf by one A. Hitler.
He had a pathological hatred of the Jewish people and would never have settled for anything less that their extinction. Any resettlement would only have delayed the Holocaust not prevented it.

jmayo

chops018 wrote: »

http://headrambles.com/2011/11/15/if-hitler-won-the-war/

Do you ever wonder what the world would be like if Hitler had won the last war?

Yes and then I thank God a lot of people died to stop him.

chops018 wrote: »

It’s impossible to say precisely of course, but we can take a rough guess.

First of all, Hitler may have had some fairly weird ideas but he was no fool.

Should I bother ? :rolleyes:

chops018 wrote: »

Hitler, amongst other things was a health fanatic. He believed in total abstinence from alcohol, was a vegetarian and had a hatred of smoking.

Why oh fooking why do people persist with this sh** that he was a vegetarian.
He wasn't and there is proof to the contrary he liked suasages, game pies, stuffed pidgeon, amongst other things.

I would bet it was mostly because people thought vegetarians are a bit precious and odd, but in your case you seem to think it shows him in a good light.
Either way you are wrong.

Oh and he didn't believe in total abstinence from alcohol, the SS commander of his personal guard was a big drinker and there is no evidence he stopped people in his company from totally drinking.
And there is even evidence that Hitler took the odd sip of wine or beer,
but he never allowed himself be drunk supposeldy because he was found past out as a young guy and also his father was an alcoholic.

So you were wrong in most of your asertions about hitler, just like you are wrong in your rosey outlook of what the Third Reich would mean for us and everyone else conquered.

bluecode

I know there are plenty of people who wish Hitler won the war. No doubt these same people would happily be poncing around in black uniforms terrorising the rest of us!

In fact it was almost impossible for Hitler and Germany to win the war. He completely underestimated the Soviets for a start and he had no regard for the Americans. If he had he would never have gone to war with either of them. Plus he was a crap general who ignored all professional military advice.

But if he had won the war, the holocaust that happened would have paled into insignificance compared to what was planned. He intended to wipe out most of the Poles and most of the Slavs. The rest of Europe would be vassal states including us.

But there is one thing many people don't consider. Hitler was a sick man by 1945, not helped by his quack of a Doctor. He would not have survived much longer anyway even if there wasn't another attempt to kill him.

The thing to remember is that the German military took an oath of loyalty directly to Hitler. When he died so did the oath. Hitler was very careful to keep his cronies at each others throats. So there was no natural successor. There could easily have been a something of a civil war between the SS and the German army led by different factions. Himmler fancied the job. So did Goering and the military generally despised the Nazis. Once released from their oath they would happily have rounded up all the Nazi leadership and shot the lot.

It could have been very messy indeed.

Capt'n Midnight

Hitler used a divide and conquer policy to gain
- The Ruhr
- Austria
- Bits of and later half of Czechoslovakia (only democracy in Eastern Europe 1.2m in their army, supplied 1/4 of the tanks used in invasion of France, most of the arms for the Atlantic wall )
- Bits of the Latvia?


- Half of Poland ( only happened because Poles / France / UK didn't do deal with Russia ) , Even without the Czech's or Russia and the small size of the BEF , France could still have invaded.

- Denmark was over before anyone could react
- Norway like Poland (and Czechoslovakia) showed that France / UK weren't really interested in a real war


Like a gambler on a lucky streak he hoped to deliver a knock out blow to the Russians , let's not forget that just a generation before the Russians had surrendered the Ukraine to Germany. Had Germany tried for peace , offering to defeat the Russian revolution at the start of 1918 the map of Europe might have been very different.

The big mistake was invading Russia at that time (Russia by then had gobbled up the Baltic States and bits of just about everyone else on their border.)

Another big mistakes were allying with Italy (though this was necessary to also ally with all the Eastern European countries like Finland, Romania, Slovakia etc. )




Hitler would have not continued to win. He should have quit while ahead.


Allying with Japan was a disaster. The Japanese didn't even bother to attack the shipping from USA to Russia's far eastern ports !!

Perhaps if he'd gotten Japan on-side for an attack on Russia he could have kept the US out of the war. (The US would still make money selling arms) But allying with Japan meant that peace with the colonial powers was off the table. An this was the same Japan that a generation previously had taken some of Germany's Pacific colonies.


Hitler could have tried to keep the peace with Russia.
A peace deal with the UK/ Russia against Japan could have resulted in a very different world. Plenty of living space in the Fench / Dutch Colonies.

Same for Japan. The US would have been far happier if Japan had gone north in to Siberia and just kept Manchukoko, allowing China to defeat the communists there.

seamus

Zebra3 wrote: »

It wasn't gonna happen.

Thankfully this is a "what if" thread, so we can ponder over theoretical scenarios no matter how unlikely

keithclancy

Wibbs wrote: »

Hardly. Hitler wasn't particularly interested in Ireland. Chances are with the UK out of the war, he wouldn't have bothered with engaging with Ireland beyond low level diplomacy. Now at the wannasee conference when they were deciding what to do about Jews in Europe they reckoned Ireland had 4000 living here so that might have interested them, though they were wrong on the numbers.

They just made up loads of 'he said she said' stories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Green_%28Ireland%29

Operation Green (German: Unternehmen Grün) often also referred to as Case Green (Fall Grün) or Plan Green (Plan Grün), was a full scale operations plan for a German invasion of Ireland in support of Operation Sea Lion (Unternehmen Seelöwe).[1][2] Despite its detailed nature, Green is thought to have been designed only as a credible threat, a feint, not an actual operation. Plan W, a planned occupation of all of the Irish Free State by British forces, was drafted by the British military in secret liaison with the Irish government to counteract any German invasion.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I remember reading about his obsession with healthy living, It's interesting to ponder would he have implemented widespread control over alcohol and tobacco products if he had won. He introduced a smoking ban in public places in Germany as well as an extensive anti smoking campaign in the print media. He also discouraged the practice in his military but of course it was still widely practiced, Goring for instance was a chain smoker. Eva Braun also smoked.

Hitler seemed to reach this conclusion about tobacco in his early 30s up until then he himself had been a heavy smoker and drinker.

Stillweak

donvito99 wrote: »

As you said yourself, I'm surprised no one has brought you up on this.

That's an abysmally obnoxious thing to say, how dare you compare the two.

I will quite happily compare the two.
What happened to the Jews at the hands of hitler was appalling murder of innocents.
What is happening to the Muslims in the middle east at the hands of Israel is appalling murder and dehumanisation of innocents.
The difference is Israel is just going about it in a slower less oblivious way. They will evidentially get to the 6 million mark.

Beaulieu

Len Deighton wrote a great book on this very topic back 30 yrs ago -SSGB.
Well worth a read and with a nice sting in the tail if I remember too;)