Vodafone mistakes leading to Intrum letter

dan185

Hi,


I was with vodafone for a period of time. Part of my contract was that I had 5 numbers to call and text for free. After a couple of months I wanted to change these, was able to as per Vodafone's website, no problems for the first month. But then it reset to the original 5, and every month it did the same. Basically they resolved it by just not charging me for whatever charges went above the contract amount of 69.99 a month. I would have to get on to them every month about this, but it was being resolved.

Until the last few months, where they weren't doing it, so I refused to pay the amounts they were saying as they were incorrect amounts and needed recalculation. I gave Vodafone lots of opportunities to recalculate for me, and I was willing to pay, but they didn't. I moved network in July/August time last year (the bill at that stage was over 500, when in reality it should've been 280) and I phoned them and asked for a final amount to settle my account and move on. They never did. I have always maintained I would pay what I owe, but they never have given the correct amount.

This week I received a letter from Intrum Credit Management services saying I owe €580. I contacted vodafone via boards.ie and their rep recalculated this to 380 (this is still wrong, it should be 280, I'm still talking to him about this). So the original 580 was completely wrong. Vodafone however are saying it's not their problem any more and my 580 is owed to Intrum. My argument is this 580 was never an amount I owed and only came about due to Vodafone's negligence, and now I have this company chasing me for it when it's not the correct amount.

Vodafone have made a complete mess of this all the way through, and the fact that this 580 is way off the actual amount has me annoyed.

For part understanding of how long I 'suffered' because of their mistakes whilst under contract, see this thread - http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2056286764/1#post72545499

Any advise appreciated.

Procrastastudy

Vodaphone have decided to contract with a credit agency that is their problem - just ignore the credit agency. In reality the moment the credit agency does anything even slightly out of line you can report them to the guards.

I'm not exactly sure how you've got into this situation but it looks as if you're pretty sure of the calculations. I'd pay Vodaphone what you think you owe them and tell them you'll see them in court for the rest. Just make sure you keep everything in writing.

P_1

Right first of all your contract is with Vodafone and you have no contract with Intrum so you should helpfully point this out to them.

Aside from that all I can suggest is that you continue to try to resolve this with Vodafone. Do you have proof/copies of all the interactions you have had with them in relation to this issue?

dan185

Thanks for the replies so far.

I have emails and private messages on this site dating back to 2011 with vodafone reps. I had text messages and phone calls with one of their former reps, however I have no record of these as I've changed phone. Also numerous calls with credit control/complaints/customer services.

I have been advised to write to Intrum with the following, which I will do tomorrow morning - http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/consumer_advice/pdf/debt.pdf

Vodafone's representative on boards is saying, and I quote from a private message relating to my question about why I owe an amount that is wrong to Intrum.

Thanks for that Dan. As I said previously, you'd need to get in contact with Intrum to talk about the amount owing as it is in there hands and not our's anymore.

Procrastastudy

dan185 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far.

I have emails and private messages on this site dating back to 2011 with vodafone reps. I had text messages and phone calls with one of their former reps, however I have no record of these as I've changed phone. Also numerous calls with credit control/complaints/customer services.

I have been advised to write to Intrum with the following, which I will do tomorrow morning - http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/consumer_advice/pdf/debt.pdf

Vodafone's representative on boards is saying, and I quote from a private message relating to my question about why I owe an amount that is wrong to Intrum.

I would not have any contact with Intrum what so ever. Just tell Vodaphone your contract is with them and you will not be dealing with third parties.

P_1

Well if you spoke to them on the phone they should have recordings of these phonecalls and you should be able to get those recordings off them.

I know a lot of shoulds...

dahamsta

Just to reiterate what others are saying, don't engage with Intrum, in any way. There's nothing to be gained by engaging with them, they'll use anything you say to get a foot in the door. Just ignore them.

Have another go off working it out with Vodafone but do it by post. Explain your position and provide copies of everything you have. If you still owe them money, tell them you're ready to pay the amount you owe, X, and that if they don't believe that's correct, they need to refute your explanation with proof of their own.

Ask them to reply in the same format by a fixed, reasonable date. Tell them that if you haven't heard from them by then, or if they refer you back to Intrum again, with whom you have no relationship, you consider the matter closed and don't wish to hear from them or Intrum again.

Don't discuss it with them in any other format from this point on, refer them to your letter and reiterate that they need to reply in the same format; and again, don't talk to Intrum at all. (They'll give up after a while, but if you're feeling harassed by them you should fire a very short letter at them telling them so, and that if you hear from them again you'll file a complaint with the Gardai on those grounds. And do it.)

Don't worry if you don't like writing letters, just draft it as an email, copy and paste it into word, add your address and theirs, and don't forget to stamp the envelope. And send it registered.

Procrastastudy

dahamsta wrote: »

Just to reiterate what others are saying, don't engage with Intrum, in any way. There's nothing to be gained by engaging with them, they'll use anything you say to get a foot in the door. Just ignore them.

Have another go off working it out with Vodafone but do it by post. Explain your position and provide copies of everything you have. If you still owe them money, tell them you're ready to pay the amount you owe, X, and that if they don't believe that's correct, they need to refute your explanation with proof of their own.

Ask them to reply in the same format by a fixed, reasonable date. Tell them that if you haven't heard from them by then, or if they refer you back to Intrum again, with whom you have no relationship, you consider the matter closed and don't wish to hear from them or Intrum again.

Don't discuss it with them in any other format from this point on, refer them to your letter and reiterate that they need to reply in the same format; and again, don't talk to Intrum at all. (They'll give up after a while, but if you're feeling harassed by them you should fire a very short letter at them telling them so, and that if you hear from them again you'll file a complaint with the Gardai on those grounds. And do it.)

Don't worry if you don't like writing letters, just draft it as an email, copy and paste it into word, add your address and theirs, and don't forget to stamp the envelope. And send it registered.

The only thing I would add to this excellent advise is send Vodaphone a cheque made payable to them and only them for the outstanding balance you know you owe. That way if it ever does go to court you can show you acted in good faith.

Please note none of what I, or any other poster for that matter, should be relied on; you should obtain proper legal advice. FLAC.ie would be a good option in this sort of situation.

dan185

Thank you very much Dahamsta, I am currently drafting a letter and will have a solicitor friend survey it before sending.

I will write a cheque for the fee I believe to be the correct amount and only correspond via letter.

P_1

Dan, just to reiterate what Procrastastudy has advised you above.

It wouldn't be wise to send off cheques or letters without first bouncing the idea off somebody who is trained in legal issues.

Its definitely a good idea to run it by your solicitor friend or FLAC, rather than just purely relying on the advise of 3 randomers on the internet.

dan185

In relation to paying off the full amount that I believe to be right, the €280, when I offer it, can I offer that it gets paid in 3 payments or would it have to be in one lump sum? 280+ is a lot for me to hand out in one go in my current situation.

P_1

TBH Dan, you'd be best asking your solicitor friend or FLAC that question. I wouldn't know myself.

dan185

thanks mate, will email my friend in the morning.


I'll keep this thread updated if he suggests it's okay to do so.

dahamsta

Please do.

I considered suggesting making payment with the letter but decided against it. If it was me, I'd want the matter resolved before handing anything over, otherwise there's a risk Vodafone will just take the dosh and hand the remainder back to Intrum for collection. Not giving them the money puts the onus on them to reply and fix things.

This is just my opinion though, and IANAL. Since you have access to a solicitor, you should definitely check with them first. Just remember that solicitors aren't gods, and their advice isn't gospel.

Procrastastudy

dahamsta wrote: »

olicitors aren't gods, and their advice isn't gospel.

Bear in mind, if part of proper consultation, it is insured though.

dahamsta

I'd like to see anyone collect on that these days.

Regardless, it doesn't negate my point. As as website operator, I've seen and been on the receiving end of ridiculously bad advice from solicitors, most recently a client that was advised to request IP address and personal data, in blatant disregard for the Data Protection Act. The solicitor then proceeded to follow up themselves with the same request, copperfastening a ridiculous level of ignorance of the law, or blatant disregard for the law.

So, like I said, they ain't gods, and their advice ain't gospel. The OP shouldn't take the advice of his friend as "The Answer", just a possible answer.

Procrastastudy

Regardless of anything else and without wanting to drag this thread off topic; OP if you are given legal advice follow it. If you think the legal advice is wrong get a second, legal, opinion. If it turns out that the first solicitor has been negligent then there are ways to resolve that - advice from boards.ie is not one of the better, of effective, ones.

dahamsta

Procrastastudy, I assume given your level of posting on the Legal forum that you're a solicitor or barrister, or given your username perhaps training to be one. If so, in circumstances such as this you might want to disclaim the fact. People might think you were trying to push business to your trade, and then where would we be?

Tow

If it was me. I would print out all the documentation and arrive up to the offices in Lepardstown early in the morning (be prepared to wait all day) and ask at reception to speak directly to a manager.

Procrastastudy

dahamsta wrote: »

Procrastastudy, I assume given your level of posting on the Legal forum that you're a solicitor or barrister, or given your username perhaps training to be one. If so, in circumstances such as this you might want to disclaim the fact. People might think you were trying to push business to your trade, and then where would we be?

I have on many occasions said I am a Law student at GCD. Most of the people that post here frequently know that - they are also aware of my previous user-name which as GCDLawstudent - which was changed as people , occasionally, thought it might be a good idea to rely on my advice, which it is not.

Barristers can not push their trade as they are not allowed to, with some narrow exceptions, advise clients directly. Every law student is aware however how the system works in regard to giving negligent legal advise.

I have tried to be polite and discrete about saying but I will just say iy plainly now and be done with this as, frankly dudara scares me a little bit and this is going way off topic. Only a fool would weigh the advice given by a legal professional with advice given by randomers on the the internet.

dahamsta

I'm not sure you understand what weighing means, but I'll leave it at that.

dudara

Procrastastudy & dahamsta Arguing back & forth between yourselves is not helping the OP. I think you both realise that, so let's leave it there.

dudara

dan185

I could do with some help on this again guys. Intrum are on my case with the below.

Dear Daniel

Please accept our apology for not getting back to you soon.
Credits have been applied on your account and can conform your balance is €262.53. however there is a charge of 75.93 relating in the account being passed over to Intrum. Your outstanding balance €338.46.

Regards

I am not going to reply for the time being, but this 75.93 is an absurd suggestion that I pay because a company made mistakes.

Procrastastudy

Dear Vodafone,

LOL - see you in court.

Regards

Dan.

If you agree the €262.53 is right pay it directly to Vodafone and then just ignore them.

dan185

But by my reckoning, I have no dealings with intrum. Intrum are the only ones to say to me "this is the final correct figure.". I have requested this off vodafone in my last email, dated 10/02/2013

i Rahsha,

Can you please confirm a full and final amount of which I owe, as I have requested on a number of occasions now.

Also, the manner in which Vodafone have approached this issue is nothing short of disgraceful and unprofessional. You can trust that I will never have a good word to say about the company in the future. As an administrator of a large internet forum, my experience is written and viewable by the forum's hundreds of members, the majority of whom will never use Vodafone for home or mobile services in the future.

I am extremely disgruntled at the manner in which this issue was dealt with, I do not appreciate the harassment I suffered from Intrum Justicia (I received numerous demanding phone calls), whom I never should have dealt with. I think the least vodafone can do is provide me with a full and frank written apology to my postal address, rather than an email.

Regards,

So I've still never been told a full amount by vodafone directly. And now Intrum are chucking in a 70 charge that I have nothing to answer for.

P_1

They're trying to bill you for them having to outsource the debt. Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't that be between Vodafone and Instrum and have nothing to do with you?

Fey!

Would a registered letter to Intrum such as this be any use, also copies to Vodafone along with a cheque for the now confirmed amount of €262.53?

Letter wrote:

To: (person who signed last letter) for Intrum
CC: (person who signed last letter) for Vodafone
RE: Vodafone Account Number ******

Dear Intrum.

Thank you for you latest correspondance confirming that my debt to Vodafone was €262.53, and not €580.00 as previosly incorrectly billed by them.

As this matter was forwarded to you due to mistakes by Vodafone and their reluctance to sort the matter out when contacted preceeding their contact with yourselves several months ago, I will not be held liable for your charge of €75.93.

Due to my contract being with Vodafone and not with yourselves, I have forwarded Vodafone a cheque for €262.53 along with a copy of this letter. I will consider this a closure of the account and an end to this matter.

Any further correspondance on this matter with the exception of a confirmation of this matter being closed from either yourselves or Vodafone will be considered harassment, and will be forwarded to An Garda Siochana as such with the view to having the undersigned of any such correspondance and the company they represent prosecuted.

Yours sincerely.

Dan185.

dan185

Thanks Fey, I'll discuss it with my solicitor friend and see if he thinks it's wise, but I like it.

Fey!

It's probably a bit too aggressive to use.

However, if your solicitor reckons it's ok and you use it, you might want to spellcheck it!!!

Good luck with it, and let us know how you get on.

Chris_5339762

I'd adjust the last paragraph to something like "I would appreciate confirmation that this closes the matter", or something like that. Remove the Garda bit for now.

daheff

I wouldnt send anything to Intrum.

Again request from Vodafone confirmation that they agree you owe the amount you have previously advised them and request vodafones payment details.


Do not even acknowledge Intrum...otherwise you are accepting that they are a party to the issue.

Sidetracker

For anyone who gets a Financial demand from "Intrum Justica", ignore it. If they continue to threaten you, ignore it. Keep all of your letters. If you reply to them you acknowledge them. If they send anyone to your home, get the persons name, who sent them and,if possible, their car reg. You then inform them that you are going to report them to the Gardai, under "The non fatal offences against the person Act". I have had experience of this company. They are bullies, but DONT engage with them. Keep your battle between you and your contractor.

dan185

Well this was never resolved. I emailed and wrote to Vodafone with the below quote. They never responded. They passed it on again to Intrum who got back to me saying that "
Please accept our apology for not getting back to you soon.
Credits have been applied on your account and can conform your balance is €262.53. however there is a charge of 75.93 relating in the account being passed over to Intrum. Your outstanding balance €338.46."

I refused to enter in to communication with Intrum as I have no contract with them. Anway, I'll continue below the quote.

Dear Sir/Madam

Reference: Former Contract issues - customer number

I am writing to you regarding an ongoing issue I have had with Vodafone throughout my contract, and currently as a third party have sent me a letter requesting payment of an incorrect sum relating to a bill due last July '12.

As per my contract, I had a free add-on of '5 free numbers to call and text' which were not to affect my normal billing. In April/May 2011 I changed these numbers on the vodafone.ie website, but a technical error led to this not being processed correctly. On 02/06/2011 I contacted Vodafone support via the boards.ie website, and had communication with representatives of Vodafone through both the forum and private messages. I have enclosed a copy of the boards.ie forum thread for your consideration. As can be seen in the thread, over the course of the rest of my contract I was being charged the wrong amount monthly because of an error on Vodafone's part. The resulting action for Vodafone to correct it was to reset my charges to €69.99 per month (€59.99 rental + €10 insurance), and credit any amount above this. I continually had to contact vodafone to try have this resolved as there was no permanent solution offered.

In July/August 2012 I received a bill for over €500, a figure I again disputed and that was to be recalculated for me. It had never been recalculated. I moved providers and undertook a phone call with a Vodafone representative detailing that I would like a full and correct final statement of amount due, but never received this.

On the 09/01/2013 I received a letter from a company named Intrum Justicia detailing that "our client VODAFONE has requested that we communicate their intention to collect the full outstanding balance" which is stated to be €582.10. I have no dealings with Intrum Justicia and my contract was with Vodafone, and thus I will not entertain communication from them on this matter.

On receipt of this letter I contacted Vodafone again via the boards.ie website, speaking to a customer service representative called Colm. I told Colm that I disputed the final outstanding balance and he replied to say that the account wasn't credited and he had now done so.

It looks like the credits for the June and July bills weren't applied for this but I have got them put on this morning. That was a credit of €243.64 including VAT.
There is now €378.40 owing on the account - these are from bills for April, May, June and July.

Firstly, this quashes the original figure of €582.10 that was stated as an outstanding balance from Intrum on behalf of Vodafone.
Secondly, I dispute this amount. The bills being discussed as unpaid are April, May, June and July, 4 months in total. As per the original agreement, anything above the €69.99 (€59.99 rental + €10 insurance) would be credited to the account. Thus, my calculations for the correct amount owed are €279.96. I therefore do not understand Vodafone's calculation of a new outstanding balance on the account of €378.40 and would like a full and proven answer if it is to be contradictory to the €279.96.

I therefore would request that Vodafone accept my offer of paying the full outstanding balance by my understanding of €279.96 within a reasonable time period, or provide me with a full breakdown of any figure that they suggest to be the final outstanding balance.

I have enclosed all documentation relating to the matter, including a full print out of the forum topic on the boards.ie website, private messages with Vodafone representatives on the boards.ie website, and email communication with a Vodafone representative.

If I do not receive communication via post from Vodafone within 14 days of receipt of this letter, or if Vodafone refer me back to Intrum again (with whom I have no relationship), I will consider this matter closed and would not wish to hear from Vodafone or Intrum Justicia acting on behalf of Vodafone again.

Yours faithfully

Intrum never pursued it further with me and I have heard nothing since February. My mother received a phone call and letter to my former address this week from CMOS (Credit management outsource solutions - http://www.cmos.ie/) saying that the account has been referred to them to recover a balance of €315.04.

I am completely baffled. I don't understand the calculation of €315.04. I don't understand how Vodafone can continue to pursue me using third parties when I offered to pay the balance in full. It's very much frustrating and I appreciate any further advice anybody can give regarding this.

Thanks guys.

wmpdd3

In my opinion, I think you are doing everything right, I would never start communication with a third party and your comms with Vodafone is concise and professional.

Did you raise a 'formal complaint' with Vodafone already, if so you could try complaining oto conreg too, but really they seem to remove themselves from billing queries.

Best of luck.

Did