Java programmer

skyfall2012

If you have just completed Java programmer certification, how easy is it to get a job, without any experience. My husband has been offered a job because he has this but he will not be working as a Developer, it would be product development.

So, we are not sure whether we should be grateful that he got offered the job and take it, or should we wait because he would be guaranteed to get something after completing Java programmer successfully?

CreepingDeath

Java certification only teachs you the syntax of the Java language, basic collection constructs and an introduction to multi-threading, not much more.

I work in a large multinational software development company.
Previously we'd only hire people with a full degree AND at least 1 or 2 years development experience.

Now, we're starting to look at degree graduates, but even they are pretty poor standard compared to 18 years ago when I graduated.

So if your husband has no third level computer qualifications or experience in the area except for the the Java certification, then his CV wouldn't make it past our recruitment agents nor our human resource department.

Sometimes, if you haven't got a full 3rd level qualification, the longer route to a development job is to start in QA or customer support, gain knowledge of the product while still teaching yourself more technologies out of office hours.
Then, after maybe a year or two, see if you can transfer internally to the product development department.

But a Java cert on it's own, is only the start.
There's a huge amount of technologies, frameworks and libraries that
are used within Java development especially in enterprise level J2EE eg.

- databases : Oracle, Db2, SQL Server, JDBC, hibernate
- application servers: JBoss, WebSphere, WebLogic
- frameworks : spring
- web : html, jsp, javascript, Ajax, JQuery, struts, servlets, applets, Rest
- webservices, xml
- security : encryption, message digests, Base64 encoding, certificates, https, code signing

regards,
CD

ChRoMe

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Java certification only teachs you the syntax of the Java language, basic collection constructs and an introduction to multi-threading, not much more.

I work in a large multinational software development company.
Previously we'd only hire people with a full degree AND at least 1 or 2 years development experience.

Now, we're starting to look at degree graduates, but even they are pretty poor standard compared to 18 years ago when I graduated.

So if your husband has no third level computer qualifications or experience in the area except for the the Java certification, then his CV wouldn't make it past our recruitment agents nor our human resource department.

Sometimes, if you haven't got a full 3rd level qualification, the longer route to a development job is to start in QA or customer support, gain knowledge of the product while still teaching yourself more technologies out of office hours.
Then, after maybe a year or two, see if you can transfer internally to the product development department.

But a Java cert on it's own, is only the start.
There's a huge amount of technologies, frameworks and libraries that
are used within Java development especially in enterprise level J2EE eg.

- databases : Oracle, Db2, SQL Server, JDBC, hibernate
- application servers: JBoss, WebSphere, WebLogic
- frameworks : spring
- web : html, jsp, javascript, Ajax, JQuery, struts, servlets, applets, Rest
- webservices, xml
- security : encryption, message digests, Base64 encoding, certificates, https, code signing

regards,
CD

Good list, I'll narrow it to what (in my experience) are the most commonly used.

DB: SQL server/MySQL (pedantic: JDBC and hibernate are not databases)
App Server: Apache Tomcat
Framework: Spring

If you have a good handle on those 3/4 you should be making decent money. Also its extremely important to be aware that, job titles in IT are a lot looser than in other industries. Product development could very easily be a "developer" position.

skyfall2012

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Java certification only teachs you the syntax of the Java language, basic collection constructs and an introduction to multi-threading, not much more.

I work in a large multinational software development company.
Previously we'd only hire people with a full degree AND at least 1 or 2 years development experience.

Now, we're starting to look at degree graduates, but even they are pretty poor standard compared to 18 years ago when I graduated.

So if your husband has no third level computer qualifications or experience in the area except for the the Java certification, then his CV wouldn't make it past our recruitment agents nor our human resource department.

Sometimes, if you haven't got a full 3rd level qualification, the longer route to a development job is to start in QA or customer support, gain knowledge of the product while still teaching yourself more technologies out of office hours.
Then, after maybe a year or two, see if you can transfer internally to the product development department.

But a Java cert on it's own, is only the start.
There's a huge amount of technologies, frameworks and libraries that
are used within Java development especially in enterprise level J2EE eg.

- databases : Oracle, Db2, SQL Server, JDBC, hibernate
- application servers: JBoss, WebSphere, WebLogic
- frameworks : spring
- web : html, jsp, javascript, Ajax, JQuery, struts, servlets, applets, Rest
- webservices, xml
- security : encryption, message digests, Base64 encoding, certificates, https, code signing

regards,
CD

This is invaluable information, thank you!

The company that want to hire him are a start up and have developers, they gave him a technical interview to see if they could use him in this role, which involved questions he could not answer as he did not cover this stuff in the certificate. They said they need developers that can hit the ground running and don't have the resources to train him in this area.

They still want to hire him because he is from a creative background which they need; illustration, flash, photoshop, web design etc.

The job offer is really low paid job (i think for 2 years @ €21,000), but they are offering him equity, which would be released to him after 2 years and have told him that is all they are paying themselves for now.

They have got funding and it seems to have high potential for success.

We are finding it difficult to decide whether to take a risk with this company or hold off. There would be a lot to be gained if it is successful. I think the experience, will pay off and maybe he could move into the development side after the 2 years, he is excellent at training himself up on stuff at home.

We don't have any debts and could live on this in the short term.

I have a Diploma in Computer Science (7 years ago DIT), but I stayed at home with kids, I was thinking, if I was going back should I go back now, maybe do one of these Java courses, would employers think I was out of college too long with little experience and not be interested.

ChRoMe

skyfall2012 wrote: »

This is invaluable information, thank you!

The company that want to hire him are a start up and have developers, they gave him a technical interview to see if they could use him in this role, which involved questions he could not answer as he did not cover this stuff in the certificate. They said they need developers that can hit the ground running and don't have the resources to train him in this area.

They still want to hire him because he is from a creative background which they need; illustration, flash, photoshop, web design etc.

The job offer is really low paid job (i think for 2 years @ €21,000), but they are offering him equity, which would be released to him after 2 years and have told him that is all they are paying themselves for now.

They have got funding and it seems to have high potential for success.

We are finding it difficult to decide whether to take a risk with this company or hold off. There would be a lot to be gained if it is successful. I think the experience, will pay off and maybe he could move into the development side after the 2 years, he is excellent at training himself up on stuff at home.

We don't have any debts and could live on this in the short term.

I have a Diploma in Computer Science (7 years ago DIT), but I stayed at home with kids, I was thinking, if I was going back should I go back now, maybe do one of these Java courses, would employers think I was out of college too long with little experience and not be interested.

Equity is completely worthless, or at least that's the only safe way to view it. You can't pay tax,rent or feed your kids with it. So remove that from your decision making process.

However, its a lot easier to find a job when you already have one, if things are tough at the moment, personally I'd take the job, its a foot in the door into the industry.

For him to actually make the move into development, he will need to do some coding on his own time so he can show personal projects to prospective employers. This proves that he a) has motivation and is capable of independent learning and that he has the required skills to be a productive member of the development team immediately.

Just curious, how old is your husband?

skyfall2012

ChRoMe wrote: »

Equity is completely worthless, or at least that's the only safe way to view it. You can't pay tax,rent or feed your kids with it. So remove that from your decision making process.

However, its a lot easier to find a job when you already have one, if things are tough at the moment, personally I'd take the job, its a foot in the door into the industry.

For him to actually make the move into development, he will need to do some coding on his own time so he can show personal projects to prospective employers. This proves that he a) has motivation and is capable of independent learning and that he has the required skills to be a productive member of the development team immediately.

Just curious, how old is your husband?

A young 38. Why? Could this affect his employability? He worked for himself in web design until the recession sucked the life out of that business and he decided to retrain, and go for the only jobs out there. He has really enjoyed the programming and was looking forward to working in this area.

ChRoMe

skyfall2012 wrote: »

A young 38. Why? Could this affect his employability? He worked for himself in web design until the recession sucked the life out of that business and he decided to retrain, and go for the only jobs out there. He has really enjoyed the programming and was looking forward to working in this area.

As I said curiosity, I felt that if I had a good understanding of the context he/you are operating in, I can make my advice as relevant as possible.

Will it affect his employability, not necessarily. Generally the industry doesn't discriminate as there are such few people who are capable of developing at a good level.

robbiezero

skyfall2012 wrote: »

A young 38. Why? Could this affect his employability? He worked for himself in web design until the recession sucked the life out of that business and he decided to retrain, and go for the only jobs out there. He has really enjoyed the programming and was looking forward to working in this area.

If its a small company he will probably end up doing some programming anyway and probably gain experience across multiple layers rather than just the presentation layer.
Pay is low, but the experience gained could be invaluable in a few years time.

skyfall2012

Thank you so much for the replies, I don't feel like we are making such an uninformed decision now. This gives me a lot more confidence and knowledge on what steps to take next. Really appreciate all your help!

croo

ChRoMe wrote: »

DB: SQL server/MySQL (pedantic: JDBC and hibernate are not databases)
App Server: Apache Tomcat
Framework: Spring

If we're being pedantic Tomcat is not an App Server!

ChRoMe

croo wrote: »

If we're being pedantic Tomcat is not an App Server!

It is, its an application server (provides middleware between JVM/OS and the application) part of which is a servlet container

skyfall2012

Just to say that my husband did his Java Developer exam today, they were only given 9 weeks to learn the content of that book, because the course was extended from the Java Associate course and that was all the time they were allowed (normally it would be 17 weeks). Anyhow he got 90%, sooo proud of him!

croo

ChRoMe wrote: »

It is, its an application server (provides middleware between JVM/OS and the application) part of which is a servlet container

I believe, if we are being pedantic, it's a webserver and servlet container. As an app server it's required to provide a lot more...ejbs spring to mind but there is more. Jboss, as an example, uses tomcat as its servlet cotainer but adds additional containers and services to fulfil the appserver api spec. Don't forget we are being pedantic!

croo

skyfall2012 wrote: »

Just to say that my husband did his Java Developer exam today, they were only given 9 weeks to learn the content of that book, because the course was extended from the Java Associate course and that was all the time they were allowed (normally it would be 17 weeks). Anyhow he got 90%, sooo proud of him!

Way ta go he deserves a big reward! :-)

ChRoMe

croo wrote: »

Don't forget we are being pedantic!

Its all in good fun

skyfall2012

croo wrote: »

Way ta go he deserves a big reward! :-)

Yes, like a good job, where he is well paid for his skills and abilities:(

I have no doubts as to what an App Server is now, I will spread the word.:)

croo

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its all in good fun

indeed. Though others probably take great pity on us because we can actually find fun in being pedantic.. About java api specs of all things. :-D
Keep a close eye on the hubby OP you don't want him to be reduced to this some day! Make sure he takes regular breaks and watch what he reads ... Too many tech specs could be bad for him. :-)

Evil Phil

tldr; I've skipped to the end.

A Java cert probably isn't going to get him a job. Perhaps he could take the job being offered and x-train over to development by continuing his education at night? He should discuss the possibility of this with the company.

pa_

A cert on its own doesn't necessarily get you jobs but there are many programmers who lack the knowledge required to get one. The Java exam is pretty tough so employers respect it somewhat. If he's picking up the cert/basics quickly and has his foot in the door of a company then it sounds like he has the work ethic and aptitude to do quite well.

Some people complain about age discrimination and that, but my guess is they are lazy. You have to keep your skills fresh in this industry and it's important to realise you can never afford to stop learning new things.

Edit - I've done both the Java Programmer and Java Web Component Developer exams. If he wants to get into web programming the following book is fun and covers the basics extremely well. Something to consider before diving into Spring and so on. It covers HTTP, Servlets, Tomcat and basic design patterns nicely.

http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Servlets-JSP-Certified/dp/0596005407