Traffic lights for pedestrians - how does it work w/o Zebra

josvill2010 · 10-01-2013 9:22am #1

Hi,

I am interested in hearing your 'legal' opinion on the following.
There is a crossing near where I work. There was a girl crossing it today and an upcoming driver who reacted very aggresively towards her. For what I got to see, she was in the middle of the crossing and the driver had plenty of time to react. He didnt make any attempt to slow down.

I thought in that specific crossing there is a right of way for the pedestrian but some colleagues at work are telling me that's not the case and that the driver has the right of way as this is not a zebra crossing. The pedestrian must excercise care and wait for the incoming car to pass the crossing before she went on it - leaving aside good manners on the road the driver was in a way 'right' to be 'upset'

Attached is a pic of the crossing

kaimera · 10-01-2013 9:26am

Give way to peds.

More vulnerable therefore higher priority.

As for the driver, upset over that? Clown.

monkeypants · 10-01-2013 9:26am

Swords? Once the pedestrian is on the road, they have right of way in my opinion. Being aggressive to a pedestrian in a car is dickish, unless they're threatening you in some way.

If they are threatening you; you're in a car.

challengemaster · 10-01-2013 9:27am

Legally once a pedestrian is on the road, they have right of way. Doesn't matter if there's a crossing or not

djimi · 10-01-2013 9:41am

You hit a pedestrian with a car and you are likely to seriously injure or kill them; ergo they have right of way and you do whatever it takes to avoid them. The legalities of the matter are pretty much irrelevant.

Matt Simis · 10-01-2013 9:47am

josvill2010 wrote: »

Hi,

I thought in that specific crossing there is a right of way for the pedestrian but some colleagues at work are telling me that's not the case and that the driver has the right of way as this is not a zebra crossing. The pedestrian must excercise care and wait for the incoming car to pass the crossing before she went on it - leaving aside good manners on the road the driver was in a way 'right' to be 'upset'

These colleagues pass a driving test in Ireland? As pointed out, they are completely incorrect. Its a basic part of the ROR.

awec · 10-01-2013 10:13am

This post has been deleted.

djimi · 10-01-2013 10:17am

awec wrote: »

I have a related question.

Traffic lights that have the orange flashing arrow to turn left - do you give way to pedestrians crossing here? If there is a pedestrian standing at the side of the road waiting, are you supposed to stop and let them across?

I never did driving lessons down here and we don't have these flashing filter arrows up home, and my experience on the road is that some people stop to let pedestrians cross and some don't (making the pedestrian wait until the lights go red and the green man light comes on for them).

I may be wrong about this, but I suspect that if the road has a flashing amber it means that the pedestrian lights are probably red? The flashing amber lights usually means you can proceed if it is clear to do so, ie if there is no oncoming traffic. I dont think a light sequence will ever have it so that a car can drive while there is even a chance that a pedestrian will still be on the road; the pedestrian light will go red well before the road light goes green.

Like I said I might have that wrong though.

doolox · 10-01-2013 10:24am

The picture shows a traffic calming speed bump.

It is not a pelican crossing.

It is not a traffic light junction as far as I can see.

Pedestrians do not have the right to walk out in front of traffic at speed bumps..

Pedestrians can only go on a green man at traffic light controlled crossings but can cross if the road is clear of traffic.

Pedestrians must wait for the cars to stop at pelican crossings. While it is customary for cars to stop at pelican crossings they must be given reasonable time to do so, pedestrians cannot assume they have right of way and bolt out in front of moving traffic. They are supposed to wait until the cars have stopped but it is reasonable to assume that they can go when both sets of cars have slowed down indicating their intention to stop.

awec · 10-01-2013 10:30am

This post has been deleted.

djimi · 10-01-2013 10:49am

awec wrote: »

Yea the pedestrian lights are red whilst the flashing amber filter arrow is on. But I've noticed that some people seem to think they are supposed to give way to pedestrians too whilst this arrow is flashing. I don't, but I was wondering if I was wrong.

If the pedestrian lights are red then they are not supposed to cross. Of course, if they are in the process of crossing anyway then you stop; that is just common sense! Otherwise the amber arrow means that you can proceed provided it is clear to do so.

stevenmu · 10-01-2013 10:56am

AFAIK the flashing amber filter light is supposed to mean that you can go if there are no pedestrians attempting to cross, as opposed to a solid green which means you can go and pedestrians have to wait. I'd guess that it's only meant to be used in places where there are no lights for the pedestrians, but as usual they messed it up.

antodeco · 10-01-2013 10:59am

doolox wrote: »

The picture shows a traffic calming speed bump.

It is not a pelican crossing.

It is not a traffic light junction as far as I can see.

Pedestrians do not have the right to walk out in front of traffic at speed bumps..

Pedestrians can only go on a green man at traffic light controlled crossings but can cross if the road is clear of traffic.

Pedestrians must wait for the cars to stop at pelican crossings. While it is customary for cars to stop at pelican crossings they must be given reasonable time to do so, pedestrians cannot assume they have right of way and bolt out in front of moving traffic. They are supposed to wait until the cars have stopped but it is reasonable to assume that they can go when both sets of cars have slowed down indicating their intention to stop.

This was my thinking too. It doesnt look like a pedestrain crossing, so cars have right of way. Obviously it differs if there is somebody already on it as you approach, but its not a walkway where pedestrians can just walk out in front of you.

10-01-2013 11:13am

awec wrote: »

I have a related question.

Traffic lights that have the orange flashing arrow to turn left - do you give way to pedestrians crossing here? If there is a pedestrian standing at the side of the road waiting, are you supposed to stop and let them across?

I never did driving lessons down here and we don't have these flashing filter arrows up home, and my experience on the road is that some people stop to let pedestrians cross and some don't (making the pedestrian wait until the lights go red and the green man light comes on for them).

From the ROR:

A flashing amber arrow pointing left can appear at a junction with another road. It means that you may move on past the traffic light, but only if you first give way to traffic already coming through the junction on the other road.

Emphasis mine. So give way to traffic, not pedestrians. The reason it's confusing is that a solid flashing amber light means give way to pedestrians in other situations, always accompanied by a flashing green "walk" man

Mr Benevolent · 10-01-2013 11:43am

antodeco wrote: »

This was my thinking too. It doesnt look like a pedestrain crossing, so cars have right of way. Obviously it differs if there is somebody already on it as you approach, but its not a walkway where pedestrians can just walk out in front of you.

Legally pedestrians can walk out in front of you and they'll still have right of way. Doesn't matter about the situation, zebra crossing, lights etc, they still have right of way.

alias no.9 · 10-01-2013 11:50am

If you look at what is actually there, true it's not a zebra or pelican crossing, but it's also more than a traffic calming ramp, the road rises up to a plateau, level with the surrounding footpath and then returns to road level. I treat these as if the road is crossing the footpath rather than the other way around, I give way to pedestrians.

I'm not sure they have any status in law but I'm pretty sure that's their intended function. I know this one is a tarred surface, probably for cost and durability reasons, but they can often be constructed of the same materials as the footpath too.

cml387 · 10-01-2013 11:55am

antodeco wrote: »

This was my thinking too. It doesnt look like a pedestrain crossing, so cars have right of way. Obviously it differs if there is somebody already on it as you approach, but its not a walkway where pedestrians can just walk out in front of you.

From the rules of the road:

You must always yield to:

pedestrians already crossing at a junction,

antodeco · 10-01-2013 12:00pm

cml387 wrote: »

From the rules of the road:

You must always yield to:
pedestrians already crossing at a junction,

Which is what I said! :rolleyes:
If they are already crossing, they have right of way. But if they havent, they cant just walk out in front of you

cml387 · 10-01-2013 12:03pm

antodeco wrote: »

Which is what I said! :rolleyes:
If they are already crossing, they have right of way. But if they havent, they cant just walk out in front of you

I wonder about your definition of "Right of way".

It means that they can walk out in front of you and they have the right (whether it's wise is another question)..

antodeco · 10-01-2013 12:05pm

cml387 wrote: »

I wonder about your definition of "Right of way".

It means that they can walk out in front of you and they have the right (whether it's wise is another question)..

Right of way meaning that if I hit them, I am at fault.

cml387 · 10-01-2013 12:11pm

antodeco wrote: »

Right of way meaning that if I hit them, I am at fault.

Yup

josvill2010 · 10-01-2013 12:24pm

Matt Simis wrote: »

These colleagues pass a driving test in Ireland? As pointed out, they are completely incorrect. Its a basic part of the ROR.

yes, they did pass the test in Ireland. But they have a fair point regarding the zebra crossing. Though I am also of the view, being a driver myself, the pedestrian must always be protected
By the way I am the only foreigner in the office

ironclaw · 10-01-2013 1:20pm

antodeco wrote: »

If they are already crossing, they have right of way. But if they havent, they cant just walk out in front of you

Your wrong.

If a skydiver magically drops in front of you, and you hit them, your at fault.

Pedestrians have utmost right of way in any situation. You should be proceeding at a speed and with enough forward vision to stop in the event someone steps out in front of you. Its stupid I know, but such is the way of our world. I always treat pedestrians with the utmost of care and a wide berth because frankly most of them are stupid.

If you hit a pedestrian, I wish you the very best of luck defending yourself unless you have a DVR, several witness's and they leap in front of you at the last minute and you with no reasonable way of stopping. Even then, you'll probably lose.

seamus · 10-01-2013 1:29pm

ironclaw wrote: »

If a skydiver magically drops in front of you, and you hit them, your at fault.

Legally incorrect.

There is no legal magical automatic right of way for a pedestrian on a roadway. Before crossing, a pedestrian is legally required to give way to oncoming traffic.

This was recently tested when two men were killed while fighting in the overtaking lane of an unlit motorway in the middle of the night. The driver was found to not be at fault for the deaths.

In terms of the OP, if the vehicle had turned or was turning from the road at the top of the image, then they must yield to any pedestrians crossing the road. However, if the driver was approaching the junction from the bottom of the image, then the onus was on the pedestrian to ensure that the road was clear of oncoming traffic.

In practice, courts and even insurance companies will assign blame to the driver and awards costs the pedestrian unless there are very exceptional circumstances. This reflects the fact that the pedestrian will usually suffer much greater loss from the incident and goes with the commonly-acceptd principle that the greater duty of care is on the person driving the vehicle. The typical justification is the onus on the driver to drive in a such a manner that allows them stop within the distance they can see to be clear. If they hit a pedestrian then they have probably failed to do this.

However, legally the pedestrian does not automatically have right-of-way as soon as they step onto the road.

josvill2010 · 10-01-2013 2:29pm

the car was coming from the bottom of the image heading towards the junction

Stheno · 10-01-2013 3:04pm

antodeco wrote: »

This was my thinking too. It doesnt look like a pedestrain crossing, so cars have right of way. Obviously it differs if there is somebody already on it as you approach, but its not a walkway where pedestrians can just walk out in front of you.

Yeah that's my thinking on that ramp too, there are no signs or lights or markings to indicate it's a designated pedestrian crossing area.

Further up the main street after you go left there, there is a similar ramp clearly marked with a sign that it is a crossing.

ofcork · 10-01-2013 6:40pm

There are a couple of these on academy street in cork and alot of cars will stop to let people across which can cause tailbacks at times.One thing gets my goat are people who walk out on the road only looking one way or jay walkers,patrick street is murder for them.

Stheno · 10-01-2013 7:48pm

ofcork wrote: »

.One thing gets my goat are people who walk out on the road only looking one way or jay walkers,patrick street is murder for them.

Ah yes Patrick St. I reckon if a few more opticians opened up there they'd make a fortune

AugustusMinimus · 10-01-2013 8:52pm

Confab wrote: »

Legally pedestrians can walk out in front of you and they'll still have right of way. Doesn't matter about the situation, zebra crossing, lights etc, they still have right of way.

This is not true at all.

You must give way to pedestrians if they are already crossing ahead of you. However, they have no right to just walk out in front of you if you are about to pass them on the side of the road. No right at all.

If this isn't the case, why would we have zebra crossings at all if pedestrians would have the right to walk out in front of cars anyways ?

Traffic lights for pedestrians - how does it work w/o Zebra

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