Do Dublin Bus still have any single decker busses in their fleet?

AngryLips

I remember the old 123 route when everyone was forced onto the one level ...some of the characters on that bus were hilarious. Don't see them anymore since all the different heads go off to their own sections

KD345

AngryLips wrote: »

I remember the old 123 route when everyone was forced onto the one level ...some of the characters on that bus were hilarious. Don't see them anymore since all the different heads go off to their own sections

Yes, 6 single decker buses remain in service with Donnybrook depot for routes 44B, 59 and 63.

AngryLips

Is there any reason there are only six? What are the economics of running a single decker over a double decker bus? Are double decker busses just as economical even on low ridership routes?

L1011

AFAIK they're only used on routes with low bridges now?

LXFlyer

There are no low bridges on routes 44b, 59 and 63.

The only route that has to be single deck operated is the 44b due to the nature of the roads south of Lamb Doyles.

CIE

lxflyer wrote: »

There are no low bridges on routes 44B, 59 and 63.

The only route that has to be single deck operated is the 44B due to the nature of the roads south of Lamb Doyles.

I once rode on a VanHool-McArdle-bodied Atlantean on route 44B out to the Ballybrack loop in Glencullen. Funny how the "nature" of those roads has not changed in the 30 years since I was lucky enough to catch a ride on one of those, so it makes one wonder what the NRA has been doing with all its money. The only buses that really "fit" on those roads are the old ME and ML class minibuses that used to run on the City Imp services; not even the old C-class Leyland Leopards or KC-class were a good fit through Barnacullia or Ballyedmonduff. (Anyone think that the 44B would be better off extended to Enniskerry?)

Out of the Dublin routes that still exist, the ones that used to be double deck most or all of the time aside from the three mentioned already (and those that weren't City Imp or CitySwift) are the 17, 17A, 27 and 70 ; on route 84, most of the trips originating at Bray Daly Station (if not all) used to be single-deck.

Peregrine

Does anyone know what happened to the articulated buses? I remember seeing them on the No. 4 everyday. I don't know what happened, they just disappeared and I didn't notice. No. 4 seems to be served mostly by GTs now.

Aard

I got a single-decker 75 last year. A once-off occurance though. And I seem to remember getting a single-decker 17 fairly frequently about 10 years ago.

I wonder if these orbital routes (somebody mentioned the 17a above) would only warrant a single-decker? I know that Dublin is relatively unusual in Europe in that it relies heavily on its bus network, but surely running double-deckers on almost all routes is overkill? Or maybe it's cheaper all round to have a single type of bus, I dunno.

Genuinely interested in whether more routes could be single-deckers. I find them more comfortable, and less susceptible to anti-social behaviour. Easier to get out of too.

Cookie_Monster

Aard wrote: »

I know that Dublin is relatively unusual in Europe in that it relies heavily on its bus network,

how is that unusual?
London is mostly bus; 6m vs 3m tube. I would say the same of most UK cities though cannot find stats off hand for europe

Genuinely interested in whether more routes could be single-deckers. I find them more comfortable, and less susceptible to anti-social behaviour. Easier to get out of too.

without question I would say, especially outside of rush hour and late at night when they run mostly empty anyway.

dfx-

Aard wrote: »

I got a single-decker 75 last year. A once-off occurance though. And I seem to remember getting a single-decker 17 fairly frequently about 10 years ago.

The 17 was probably one of the VLs, here: http://www.dublinbus.cc/vls.htm

The single deckers that operated the 123 were held together with elastic bands by the end..

Aard

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how is that unusual?
London is mostly bus; 6m vs 3m tube. I would say the same of most UK cities though cannot find stats off hand for europe

Hmm I was probably being a bit flippant there. I guess I meant that we don't have railway networks as developed as German, Dutch, French, or Spanish cities... Pretend I didn't say it!

Cookie_Monster

bring back those gas powered single deckers :pac:
easily the worst bus DB ever bought, I don't think I ever saw one that didn't have one corner on partially collapsed suspension

KD345

Aard wrote: »

I got a single-decker 75 last year. A once-off occurance though. And I seem to remember getting a single-decker 17 fairly frequently about 10 years ago.

The remaining single deck buses do sometimes stray onto other routes.

Aard wrote: »

I wonder if these orbital routes (somebody mentioned the 17a above) would only warrant a single-decker?

The 17a is a busy route and requires a double decker. Most orbital routes have busy periods throughout the day, particularly those serving shopping centres and schools. For example, the 75 would have near full loads at weekends to Drundrum in both directions.

Aard wrote: »

surely running double-deckers on almost all routes is overkill? Or maybe it's cheaper all round to have a single type of bus, I dunno.

The increase in double deck vehicles occurred in the late nineties. At the time, many frequent routes were operated by mini buses and single deckers. Passenger numbers increased and there were serious capacity problems. In some cases, larger minibuses were purchased and some routes like the 122 and 155 were upgraded to larger single deckers with these vehicles taken from other routes like the 39 which was also suffering with over capacity. Most City Swift routes were converted to double deck operation.

Further problems arose in the noughties when Dublin Bus were prevented from expanding their fleet and only allowed replace buses. With capacity still a problem, they replaced all single deck buses as double deckers and in some cases by tri-axel deckers. This was at a time when the city was expanding at a rapid rate. With passengers being left behind at stops it would have been wrong to purchase more single deck vehicles.

This led us to the situation we have today. In the last two years the fleet has reduced and there are now around 950 double deck buses in service. There are a few routes which could operate just fine with a single decker, and perhaps we may see a return to a mixture of bus sizes in the future. For the moment, the fleet is what it is because of the demand in the past.

seanmacc

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Does anyone know what happened to the articulated buses? I remember seeing them on the No. 4 everyday. I don't know what happened, they just disappeared and I didn't notice. No. 4 seems to be served mostly by GTs now.

Phased out due to saftey concerns. A couple of cyclists and pedestrians lost their lives in a few instances on the Continent. They're now being done away with all over Europe except for cities with designated bus only lanes.

I remember getting the No. 10 into UCD on one every other morning. It was never a pleasant sensation going round a corner when you were hung over/still drunk from the night before. The sensation of one end of the bus moving before the other could be nausiating.

Eathrin

Two good reasons why the 63 bus is single decker are
1) There is quite a lot of antisocial behaviour in the Ballyogan area, eliminating the top deck of the bus allows the driver to keep a close eye on the passengers.
2) Anytime I've got the bus there were very few passengers so it may be more economical to do so.

bmaxi

seanmacc wrote: »

I remember getting the No. 10 into UCD on one every other morning. It was never a pleasant sensation going round a corner when you were hung over/still drunk from the night before. The sensation of one end of the bus moving before the other could be nausiating.

Classic Irish logic. It was the movement of the bus more so than the surfeit of drink that caused the nausea.

Conway635

Traditional single-deck routes up until the mid 80s were as follows


17*
17A*
27*
36*
36A*
36B**
44B*
46
47 (old 47, not the current day one)
47B
52*$
53A*
59*
63
70*
76*
80*
85*
88*



Those with an asterix * were one-man operated (it was all men until the end of the 70s) and could never use double-decks unless in exceptional circumstances.

Route 36B marked ** was highly unusual, mixed one-man single-deck and two-man double-deck (particularly on Saturdays)

Route 52 (City to Sandymount) had a low-bridge, so could never ever be double-deck worked.

Note that in those days the 53 and 53A were entirely seperate routes, not interworked - 53 was double-deck, and 53A one-man singledeck.

The 46, 47, 47B and 63 at Donnybrook were two-man single-deck, and would often see double-decks as peak extras. (note, in those days 47/47B were interworked single-deck, 47A to Churchtown was a distinct service, double-deck worked).

The 84 had been single-deck, but became double-deck in the mid 70s when a road under a railway bridge at Greystones was lowered.

After 1984, single-decks spread much more around the system, as the number in the fleet increased steadily, reaching a peak in the mid 90s before declining again.

The 44B was unusual in that road size and dimensions presented a problem, and so was often the haunt of the oldest single-decks in the fleet (as vehicle size increased over time) - it hosted Donnybrook's last Ps in the early 70s, the last Us, Donnybrook's last Cs in 1983/4, and was the last route in Donnybrook operated by the final two KCs in the depot in November 2000.

The timetable had to be arranged so that when there were two buses on the route, they could never meet each other beyond Lamb Doyles pub, as they wouldn't be able to pass.

As regards poster CIE's experience of a double-deck 44B, I'm wondering if in fact what he travelled on was that strange phenomonon of the 1990s, the 44B that was really a 44C. When the 44C to Ballyogan loop was introduced, there number was not on Donnybrook blinds, and so all buses on this route happily displayed 44B as their number for a period of about 10 years, with the typically Irish assumption that the regular passengers would know where the bus was going anyway. I have a picture somewhere of a packed Olympian at Merrior Square displaying 44B Ballyogan as late as 1999 ! CIE, was the Loop you describe a one-way working around a small isolated housing estate accessed from a country roadway (as Ballyogan Road was until 10 years ago) ?


C635

flazio

Could it be that double deckers are easier to set up for disabled transport? Wheelchairs could line the lower deck if needed while able bodies travel upstairs?

dazberry

AngryLips wrote: »

I remember the old 123 route when everyone was forced onto the one level ...some of the characters on that bus were hilarious. Don't see them anymore since all the different heads go off to their own sections

Not the 123 route, but my memory of single deckers on other routes is not so positive, for instance having a junkie shout at me for 20 minutes because he wanted the rear emergency door of the bus opened (why?) and I was sitting beside it (think that was a 51), or the old 68A swanning down Tyrconnell Rd just to pass you and keep going...

bmaxi wrote: »

Classic Irish logic. It was the movement of the bus more so than the surfeit of drink that caused the nausea.

I remember feeling distinctly unwell after 3 pints of Guinness one evening on the last 51 of the evening as it sped down Conyngham Rd, really was like a funderland ride at that time of the evening - drink or no drink.

D.

LXFlyer

flazio wrote: »

Could it be that double deckers are easier to set up for disabled transport? Wheelchairs could line the lower deck if needed while able bodies travel upstairs?

No the primary reason was the ban on additional vehicles during the noughties.

DB were only allowed purchase replacement vehicles and in order to resolve capacity issues they purchased double decks rather than single decks.

The articulated buses were not chosen by DB, but forced on them by the DTO. They were introduced with no proper infrastructure put in place for their safe operation by Dublin City Council (lengthened bus bays at bus stops) and frankly were never able to be operated properly. Their withdrawal was down principally to their appalling reliability record.

trad

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Does anyone know what happened to the articulated buses? I remember seeing them on the No. 4 everyday. I don't know what happened, they just disappeared and I didn't notice. No. 4 seems to be served mostly by GTs now.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOLVO-B7-WRIGHT-BODY-BUS-COACH-BREAKING-EXPORT-SPARES-/121043313375?pt=UK_Minibuses_Buses_Coaches&hash=item1c2ebe62df

AngryLips

I wonder if the lack of single decker busses in the DB fleet has resulted in a reluctance on DB's part to open new routes to low ridership parts of the city.

LXFlyer

Opening up new routes is not really an option as the funding is not there to do it.

Any new route would require a subsidy increase.

Nothing to do with single -v- double decks.

KD345

AngryLips wrote: »

I wonder if the lack of single decker busses in the DB fleet has resulted in a reluctance on DB's part to open new routes to low ridership parts of the city.

What areas of the city do you feel are not served? I don't think having double deck buses has prevented or discouraged them from operating a service on quiet routes.

popebenny16

Conway635 wrote: »

Traditional single-deck routes up until the mid 80s were as follows


17*
17A*
27*
36*
36A*
36B**
44B*
46
47 (old 47, not the current day one)
47B
52*$
53A*
59*
63
70*
76*
80*
85*
88*



Those with an asterix * were one-man operated (it was all men until the end of the 70s) and could never use double-decks unless in exceptional circumstances.

Route 36B marked ** was highly unusual, mixed one-man single-deck and two-man double-deck (particularly on Saturdays)

Route 52 (City to Sandymount) had a low-bridge, so could never ever be double-deck worked.

Note that in those days the 53 and 53A were entirely seperate routes, not interworked - 53 was double-deck, and 53A one-man singledeck.

The 46, 47, 47B and 63 at Donnybrook were two-man single-deck, and would often see double-decks as peak extras. (note, in those days 47/47B were interworked single-deck, 47A to Churchtown was a distinct service, double-deck worked).

The 84 had been single-deck, but became double-deck in the mid 70s when a road under a railway bridge at Greystones was lowered.

After 1984, single-decks spread much more around the system, as the number in the fleet increased steadily, reaching a peak in the mid 90s before declining again.

The 44B was unusual in that road size and dimensions presented a problem, and so was often the haunt of the oldest single-decks in the fleet (as vehicle size increased over time) - it hosted Donnybrook's last Ps in the early 70s, the last Us, Donnybrook's last Cs in 1983/4, and was the last route in Donnybrook operated by the final two KCs in the depot in November 2000.

The timetable had to be arranged so that when there were two buses on the route, they could never meet each other beyond Lamb Doyles pub, as they wouldn't be able to pass.

As regards poster CIE's experience of a double-deck 44B, I'm wondering if in fact what he travelled on was that strange phenomonon of the 1990s, the 44B that was really a 44C. When the 44C to Ballyogan loop was introduced, there number was not on Donnybrook blinds, and so all buses on this route happily displayed 44B as their number for a period of about 10 years, with the typically Irish assumption that the regular passengers would know where the bus was going anyway. I have a picture somewhere of a packed Olympian at Merrior Square displaying 44B Ballyogan as late as 1999 ! CIE, was the Loop you describe a one-way working around a small isolated housing estate accessed from a country roadway (as Ballyogan Road was until 10 years ago) ?


C635

36B was normally a double deck with single decks added to it, i remember the rear enterance buses, blue and navy metal bodied atlantians on it. Even, once or twice, Van Hools. With the introduction of the GAC single deckers that all went out and soon after it the 36B. (in fact the first single deck bombardier was a regular and a great bus on the route, totally different to what followed).

the 36 also had a lot of rear doored double decks as well, but with their withdrawals we got the GAC single decks untill the abolition of the 36 in the mid 90's. A totally inadequate bus, frequently packed like a cattle truck as empty double deckers to more affluent areas of the city sailed past. That said, they were a slight improvment on the old leopards - from the perspective of shoppers and users of prams anyway.

Same with the 17a. When it ever did decide to turn up, it was always packed and it wasnt till the late 80's that summerhill decided to throw us the very odd double decker.

the groutch

Eathrin wrote: »

Two good reasons why the 63 bus is single decker are
1) There is quite a lot of antisocial behaviour in the Ballyogan area, eliminating the top deck of the bus allows the driver to keep a close eye on the passengers.
2) Anytime I've got the bus there were very few passengers so it may be more economical to do so.

and the route itself is quite tight in spots eg. Monkstown Farm, Cornelscourt Hill, top of the Glenamuck Road, etc.

Eathrin

the groutch wrote: »

and the route itself is quite tight in spots eg. Monkstown Farm, Cornelscourt Hill, top of the Glenamuck Road, etc.

Nothing worse than the routes up in the Dublin Mountains for space

Are they all single deck? I can't recall.

LXFlyer

Only the 44b, 59 and 63.

The 61 and 161 are both double deck as they are integrated with the 14.

CIE

Conway635 wrote: »

Traditional single-deck routes up until the mid 80s were as follows:

17* 17A* 27* 36* 36A* 36B** 44B* 46 47 (old 47, not the current day one) 47B 52*$ 53A* 59* 63 70* 76* 80* 85* 88*

Those with an asterix * were one-man operated (it was all men until the end of the 70s) and could never use double-decks unless in exceptional circumstances.

Route 36B marked ** was highly unusual, mixed one-man single-deck and two-man double-deck (particularly on Saturdays)

Route 52 (City to Sandymount) had a low bridge, so could never ever be double-deck worked.

Note that in those days the 53 and 53A were entirely separate routes, not interworked - 53 was double-deck, and 53A one-man singledeck.

The 46, 47, 47B and 63 at Donnybrook were two-man single-deck, and would often see double-decks as peak extras. (note, in those days 47/47B were interworked single-deck, 47A to Churchtown was a distinct service, double-deck worked).

The 84 had been single-deck, but became double-deck in the mid 70s when a road under a railway bridge at Greystones was lowered.

After 1984, single-decks spread much more around the system, as the number in the fleet increased steadily, reaching a peak in the mid 90s before declining again.

The 44B was unusual in that road size and dimensions presented a problem, and so was often the haunt of the oldest single-decks in the fleet (as vehicle size increased over time) - it hosted Donnybrook's last Ps in the early 70s, the last Us, Donnybrook's last Cs in 1983/4, and was the last route in Donnybrook operated by the final two KCs in the depot in November 2000.

The timetable had to be arranged so that when there were two buses on the route, they could never meet each other beyond Lamb Doyles pub, as they wouldn't be able to pass.

As regards poster CIE's experience of a double-deck 44B, I'm wondering if in fact what he travelled on was that strange phenomonon of the 1990s, the 44B that was really a 44C. When the 44C to Ballyogan loop was introduced, there number was not on Donnybrook blinds, and so all buses on this route happily displayed 44B as their number for a period of about 10 years, with the typically Irish assumption that the regular passengers would know where the bus was going anyway. I have a picture somewhere of a packed Olympian at Merrion Square displaying 44B Ballyogan as late as 1999! CIE, was the Loop you describe a one-way working around a small isolated housing estate accessed from a country roadway (as Ballyogan Road was until 10 years ago)?

It was definitely a 44B to Glencullen using a VanHool-bodied Atlantean from Donnybrook, and it was in the very early 80s. And it was unusual looking down from the top deck upon the narrow roads beyond the first half-mile of Woodside Road, not to say aught of the tight junction between Burrow Road and Ballyedmonduff Road. There were definitely no buses on Ballyogan Road at that time, and the 44 was still going via Lamb's Cross as well as bumping against the footpath on Hillcrest Road (at the time way too narrow to allow two double-deckers to pass each other, as with the junction with Kilgobbin Road).

Out of that list above: The 27A was also just about always single-deck, i.e. the former route to Kilmore via Bunratty Road, which IIRC before its end terminated at Beaumont Hospital. When the Rockbrook branch of the 47 became the 47A (as opposed to the original 47A which was a forerunner to today's 14 via Orwell Road), that route stayed single-deck, that I recall.

Also, all the original DART feeder routes used single-deck buses, usually of the KC-class (e.g. 101, 102, 103 on the north side and 111, 113, 114 on the south side). Interesting operation with trying to sell railway tickets on board too; most drivers when I used the 101 were pleased that I had the monthly pass.

When the 84 got double-deckers following the increase of clearance under the bridge on Victoria Road, those were usually on the buses going to the city centre (or "To Dublin" as the timetable used to say; it was the only route that said "From Dublin" or "To Dublin" in the old Dublin District timetable booklet); buses originating at Bray Daly Station for destinations south still operated with single-deck Leopards and later KCs, two-man crew as I remember.

PS. Bath Avenue bridge on the old route 52 to Sandymount is still a low bridge, IINM. And you left out route 60, which always looked to me to be an extension of the old route 36B to Santry Avenue; I always felt that the 60 should have had a permanent terminus in Swords. I once rode a double-deck CIE-bodied Atlantean on route 60 to the Leas Cross terminus, in the middle of nowhere back then as today.

dfx-

KD345 wrote: »

Yes, 6 single decker buses remain in service with Donnybrook depot for routes 44B, 59 and 63.

Except on weekends for the 59 and 63. I caught a couple of AX500s on both routes a few months ago..

bmaxi

dazberry wrote: »

I remember feeling distinctly unwell after 3 pints of Guinness one evening on the last 51 of the evening as it sped down Conyngham Rd, really was like a funderland ride at that time of the evening - drink or no drink.

D.

I don't want to take the thread off topic but that's essentially the same logic as the other poster.

Cookie_Monster

is the 59 not largely DD these days, it certainly was in the last 6 months I was in Irl up to Aug 11

KD345

The 59 and 63 are double deck operated with a few single deckers mixed in.