Tyrannoneustes, a new giant sea croc

Adam Khor

According to what I've been told, Tyrannoneustes ("swimming tyrant") would be around 9 meters long and is the oldest known big game-hunting sea croc. It was found in England's Oxford Clay formation.

Unfortunately there is still very little info and no pics. It would probably look kinda like these guys, but bigger:



I'll ban anyone who calls it "T-Rex of the sea".


... Oh, crap...

Rubecula

So this Allosaurus of the sea

What do we know about it? I have never heard of it before Adam.

Adam Khor

Rubecula wrote: »

So this Allosaurus of the sea

What do we know about it? I have never heard of it before Adam.

Haha :pac:

I don´t know much, just that it's seemingly the oldest sea croc adapted to feed on large game rather than fish, and that it was very big. It was closely related to Geosaurus so it must have looked somewhat similar but don´t quote me on this; I'm afraid we'll have to wait until a picture is published. U-U

Rubecula

Well if we know little we at least can imagine a lot can't we. That is something I like doing, Not knowing, but making educated guesses (or in my case Uneducated guesses ), and later seeing how close your ideas are to the experts.

I imagine it was a top predator at the time it was alive (Obviously) But did it manage to live in shallow lagoon type conditions and grab the occasional land creature as it crossed from place to place (Much like Nile crocs grab a zebra) or did it go after marine creatures. If it was "finned" rather than "legged" it would tend to indicate a more marine type preference and living in slightly deeper waters, or even blue water. However I am assuming it was a Jurassic creature (age of the clay) so it would have avoided the biggies of the cretaceous (Mososaurs etc)

Adam Khor

Rubecula wrote: »

Well if we know little we at least can imagine a lot can't we. That is something I like doing, Not knowing, but making educated guesses (or in my case Uneducated guesses ), and later seeing how close your ideas are to the experts.

I imagine it was a top predator at the time it was alive (Obviously) But did it manage to live in shallow lagoon type conditions and grab the occasional land creature as it crossed from place to place (Much like Nile crocs grab a zebra) or did it go after marine creatures. If it was "finned" rather than "legged" it would tend to indicate a more marine type preference and living in slightly deeper waters, or even blue water. However I am assuming it was a Jurassic creature (age of the clay) so it would have avoided the biggies of the cretaceous (Mososaurs etc)

Well here's the paper's summary:

"The Oxford Clay Formation of England has yielded numerous sympatric
species of metriorhynchid crocodylomorphs, although disagreement has
persisted regarding the number of valid species. For over 140 years
teeth reminiscent of the genus Dakosaurus have been known from the
Oxford Clay Formation but these have never been properly described and
their taxonomy and systematic affinity remain contentious.
Furthermore, an enigmatic mandible and associated postcranial skeleton
discovered by Alfred Leeds in the Fletton brick pits near Peterborough
also remains undescribed. We show that this specimen, and several
isolated teeth, represents the oldest known remains of a large-bodied
predatory metriorhynchid. This material is described herein and
referred to Tyrannoneustes lythrodectikos gen. et sp. nov. This
species has a unique occlusal pattern: the dentition was arranged so
that the posterior maxillodentary teeth interlock in the same plane
and occlude mesiodistally. It is the first described crocodylomorph
with microscopic denticles that are not contiguous along the carinae
(forming short series of up to 10 denticles) and do not noticeably
alter the height of the keel. Additionally, the dorsally expanded and
curved posterior region of the mandible ventrally displaced the
dentary tooth row relative to the jaw joint facilitating the
enlargement of the dentition and increasing optimum gape. Therefore,
Tyrannoneustes would have been a large-bodied marine predator that was
well-suited to feed on larger prey than other contemporaneous
metriorhynchids. A new phylogenetic analysis finds Tyrannoneustes to
be the sister taxon to the subclade Geosaurini. An isolated tooth,
humerus, and well-preserved mandible suggest a second species of
metriorhynchid super-predator may also have lived in the Oxford Clay
sea. Finally, we revise the diagnoses and descriptions of the other
Oxford Clay metriorhynchid species, providing a guide for
differentiating the many contemporaneous taxa from this exceptional
fossil assemblage."

It was middle Jurassic so it didn´t see any mosasaurs but apparently there was another large sea croc around at the time, and then there were plesiosaurs too.

Rubecula

Yes that is great Adam thank you. (Reading it again avidly Marine animal head on again I am afraid)

I was browsing and came across this too:

http://www.academia.edu/267293/A_new_metriorhynchid_crocodile_Mesoeucrocodylia_Thalattosuchia_from_the_Kimmeridgian_Upper_Jurassic_of_Wiltshire_UK

Capt'n Midnight

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120702-biggest-crocodile-lolong-guinness-world-records-animals-science/

Lolong has hit the big time—at 20.24 feet (6.17 meters) long, the saltwater crocodile is officially the largest in captivity, the Guinness World Records announced recently.
...
What's more, Britton noted, the 2,370-pound (1,075-kilogram) Lolong may have a sizable impact on crocodile conservation in the Philippines

And salties have been found far out to sea even though there are killer whales and great whites out there.

Galvasean

Tyrannoneustes, sounds like piggyback naming - as if the people who described it wanted it to be compared to T. rex.

Kess73

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120702-biggest-crocodile-lolong-guinness-world-records-animals-science/

And salties have been found far out to sea even though there are killer whales and great whites out there.

National Geo really have become a tabloid type site when it comes to info and facts.

That article is dated July 2012, yet Lolong was caught almost a year earlier, something that National Geo reported on at that time as well.

Lolong may be listed as the biggest in captivity, but there is an even bigger croc recognised by the Guinness Book of World Records.

http://www.underwatertimes.com/news.php?article_id=51790108324


One really has to wonder as to how big Salties actually grew before man impacted on the species, and how big they may grow again given their populations are growing again in Australia and India.

Galvasean

Very big

Adam Khor

Kess73 wrote: »

One really has to wonder as to how big Salties actually grew before man impacted on the species, and how big they may grow again given their populations are growing again in Australia and India.

Some old books (70s or so) I have give the saltwater crocodile a maximum length of 10 meters (not much smaller than your average Deinosuchus if you think about it).
In Mexico, an 8 meter long American crocodile was once reported. And the false gharial is so rare nowadays that adults rarely ever grow very large, yet the recent case of the man-eating false gharial is proof that these CAN be huge too, if given the chance:

Rubecula

I seem to remember a documentary from some years ago about a big croc getting moved to a safer location on the back of a large lorry. It overhung the end of the lorry by quite a bit. But I can't find any reference to it. I am sure I wasn't imagining it though.

Kess73

If we look at the confirmed and/or accepted maximum lengths of salties, then there certainly is a pattern of larger crocs being found since the 1950's.


The longest accepted/confirmed length in the early 1960's was a few inches over 20 foot, but now by early 2013 we have at least one accepted 23 footer and have had numerous confirmations of salties that tipped the 20 foot mark that was once seen as their maximum size.


The crocodile sanctuary in the Bhitarkanika National Park in India really does seem the best bet as the location for the breaking of the 23 foot mark given they already have the longest accepted length for a living specimen as well as another 100 or so specimens that are estimated at being over the 20 foot mark.


Have seen salties in the 16 to 18 foot range in Northern Oz, and they looked very impressive, so can only imagine what a 23 footer must be like to see in the flesh.

One thing about big crocs is that they inspire a far greater feeling of respect/fear in me than Great white sharks. Have been in the water with some very big great whites, and whilst I was in awe of the big sharks they did not garner the same level of caution in my mind as the big salties did.

The great whites gave off a feeling of power, but at the same time they can be quite twitchy animals, whereas a really big saltie comes with an air of primal patience that seems to be saying "I have all the time in the world to hang here and watch you. But if I change my mind there is nothing you can do about what comes next"

I think that for me the only other predator that gives off a vibe that comes somewhat close to the saltie would be the Tiger shark.

Capt'n Midnight

Kess73 wrote: »

One thing about big crocs is that they inspire a far greater feeling of respect/fear in me than Great white sharks.

A shark will only attack if you are wet.

http://iberianature.com/wildworld/tag/massacre-by-crocodiles-on-ramree-island/

“That night was the most horrible that any member of the motor launch crews ever experienced. The scattered rifle shots in the pitch black swamp punctured by the screams of wounded men crushed in the jaws of huge reptiles, and the blurred worrying sound of spinning crocodiles made a cacophony of hell that has rarely been duplicated on earth. At dawn the vultures arrived to clean up what the crocodiles had left…Of about 1,000 Japanese soldiers that entered the swamps of Ramree, only about 20 were found alive.”

It's rare to see a croc galloping/bounding, but they have a rarely used mode of locomotion like rabbits - more common in smaller ones, but

http://crocodilian.com/cnhc/cj-gallop1-slow.htm

Rubecula

It is true that freshies (as opposed to salties) are more often to be seen galloping than salties, yet the big salties are fully capable. I have only seen it on the tv but it is an impressive sight.

Crocs are very much an apex predator and I admire them. I actually think they have a certain beauty of their own. (Yes ok I am weird)

Capt'n Midnight

Rubecula wrote: »

Crocs are very much an apex predator and I admire them. I actually think they have a certain beauty of their own. (Yes ok I am weird)

Like the Eagle transporters in Space 1999 you have to admire the obvious functionality of the design.

The way the armour plating on the body behaves differently when walking and when swimming

Rubecula

Exactly Capt'n that is what I was trying to say.

Galvasean

Well, variations of the crocodile form have been around for the best part of 300 million years. It's been a case of refinement for quite some time now.

Adam Khor

Rubecula wrote: »

Crocs are very much an apex predator and I admire them. I actually think they have a certain beauty of their own. (Yes ok I am weird)

If you're weird, then I'm weird too. They certainly DO have beauty, it's just hard to see for people who won´t look past their jaws. And baby crocodiles with their chirping sounds are about as cute as they come.

Adam Khor

Here's an article on Tyrannoneustes. If that picture is supossed to be it, I must say it's quite underwhelming (the pic, not the croc), especially compared to that awesome Thalattoarchon by Raul Martin...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50400004/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.UOy89ayx1ac

Rubecula

Adam Khor wrote: »

Here's an article on Tyrannoneustes. If that picture is supossed to be it, I must say it's quite underwhelming (the pic, not the croc), especially compared to that awesome Thalattoarchon by Raul Martin...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50400004/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.UOy89ayx1ac

I see what you mean, the picture makes it look like it is on it's last legs due to old age.

Galvasean

Looks like one of those stock images from the old Dinosaurs! magazines.

Galvasean

Oh no he DIDN't! :pac:

Rubecula

Galvasean wrote: »

Oh no he DIDN't! :pac:

Yes he did!!!!!! (shock - horror) :pac:

And whoever did the picture made it look like a pike too

Adam Khor

Rubecula wrote: »

Yes he did!!!!!! (shock - horror) :pac:

And whoever did the picture made it look like a pike too

I think that picture actually depicts Dakosaurus

Galvasean

As it says in the caption: "Dakosaurus – Tyrannoneustes would have looked similar."
It's hard to find good images of new discoveries without getting sucked into a copyright quagmire. The wikimedia commons is a good place to find images, but generally it takes a while for images of new stuff to appear.

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

As it says in the caption: "Dakosaurus – Tyrannoneustes would have looked similar."

Right... my mistake

Galvasean

Not that there's anything wrong with looking like a pike... those are some scary fish!

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

Not that there's anything wrong with looking like a pike... those are some scary fish!

They're kittens compared to alligator gar:

Galvasean

Goliath tiger fish laughs at puny 'gator-fish...

Adam Khor

Galvasean wrote: »

Goliath tiger fish laughs at puny 'gator-fish...

Man-eating goonch is not impressed...

Rubecula

My ex goes to those foot spar places, any chance I could borrow those fish? :pac:

Owryan

Galvasean wrote: »

Oh no he DIDN't! :pac:

I like the fact that the first picture under the article is of RVP

Capt'n Midnight

Galvasean wrote: »

Well, variations of the crocodile form have been around for the best part of 300 million years. It's been a case of refinement for quite some time now.

Galvasean

Owryan wrote: »

I like the fact that the first picture under the article is of RVP

HUUUWHHHAAAATTT!?!?!?!?