Fixed penalties on way to curb unruly cyclists

Death and Taxes

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fixed-penalties-on-way-to-curb-unruly-cyclists-3343449.html

Dublin's unruly cyclists, who have been described by pedestrians as often resembling "winged rats", face fixed penalties in the wake of an intervention by Transport Minister Leo Varadkar.

The behaviour of some of the city's cyclists has become an increasing source of concern to the gardai who have been inundated with complaints from policing committees and citizens.

Personally I believe it is time that those cyclists who have no regard for the rules of the road were tackled, not sure I would describe cyclists as rats though, seems a bit trollish!

Ray Palmer

It won't really make a difference. A cop has to see the cyclist and catch up with them.
Considering I have been told by a cop to get out of a cycle lane because he didn't realise it was a cycle lane I don't see them doing a good job.

It will most likely abused. Who are you going to fine? A cyclist avoiding a car/person in the cycle lane or the cyclist? If they enforced the current rules on all road users cyclists would be better behaved

AnarchistKen

Great news and about time.

Just hope it is enforced!

drunkmonkey

Think we should send mr Leo to amsterdam on a fact finding mission.

opti0nal

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If they enforced the current rules on all road users cyclists would be better behaved

....and there would be fewer motorists to bother them many drivers would have lost their licences.

im invisible

WileyCoyote wrote:

not sure I would describe cyclists as rats though, seems a bit trollish!

Bats, i thought

hardCopy

im invisible wrote: »

Bats, i thought

I always thought winged rats referred to pigeons

endacl

Most original thread ever! Hasn't this been done?

Death and Taxes

endacl wrote: »

Most original thread ever! Hasn't this been done?

The article I linked only appeared in this mornings paper :rolleyes:

HoPpiE

im invisible wrote: »

Bats, i thought

I always thought bats had wings, regardless.

That's an excellent opening piece by John Drennan which easily matches the standards I expect from the Indo.

Icyseanfitz

waiting for imminent george hook rant on cyclists :pac:

MysticalRain

I think "winged rat" rather aptly describes the average Sunday Indo journalist these days.

Wicklowrider

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The article I linked only appeared in this mornings paper :rolleyes:

10 pages thread here if anyone really cares:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056842518&page=10

RED Lynam

I dunno, I hope the Guards can get it right though as to what unsafe cycling is. There are some cyclist out there with their fixed gear lugged framed bikes running reds and blatantly going against all rules of safety but that's only a few. The worst cyclists I see are the ones who hop on one of those rental bikes and take off down the street with out much experience. The amount of times I've seen safe looking cyclists all dressed up with their helmets and reflective gear waving their hand out to turn (which is great) but not actually look at what's coming up behind them. I think the finger is being point at the cyclists that are a lot better and generally safer on the road (fixed gear hipsters in particular) which isn't completely right...though you do get some idiots who blatantly cycle out in front of cars knowing they get away with it. I don't think it would be any harm to introduce a bicycle license which you'd have to do a good cycle test before obtaining.

opti0nal

RED Lynam wrote: »

I don't think it would be any harm to introduce a bicycle license which you'd have to do a good cycle test before obtaining.

Just look how that worked out with motorists. Only 78% of them break speed limits.

Biggins

WileyCoyote wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fixed-penalties-on-way-to-curb-unruly-cyclists-3343449.html

Dublin's unruly cyclists...

Those darn town cyclists! They are all naughty bold boys and girls!

ArmaniJeanss

RED Lynam wrote: »

I don't think it would be any harm to introduce a bicycle license which you'd have to do a good cycle test before obtaining.

Most of us wouldn't bother going through the process of getting a license.
So you'd take 95% of cyclists off the road, making cycling massively more dangerous for the 5% who remain.

seamus

RED Lynam wrote: »

I don't think it would be any harm to introduce a bicycle license which you'd have to do a good cycle test before obtaining.

And then when nobody under 16 is riding a bike anymore we'll wonder why obesity has become our number 1 health problem and there are no bike shops left in Ireland.

Cycling needs to be more accessible, not less. Every km moved from car to bike results in a net profit for the state. Anything which makes cycling less attractive is cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Enforcement of existing traffic laws for cyclists will result in an improvement in perceived safety for cyclists and therefore an increase in cycling.

RED Lynam

I meant it more about teaching some cyclists how to cycle better (and I know breaking a speed limit is not better but speed limits aren't something you really need to worry about when cycling). Just some cyclists aren't that road smart or confident.

Inquitus

RED Lynam wrote: »

Just some cyclists aren't that road smart or confident.

And a huge swathe of car drivers are the same, only they pilot @ 1 tonne vehicles capable of doing 120kph+

Beasty

RED Lynam wrote: »

but speed limits aren't something you really need to worry about when cycling

Correct - they don't actually apply to cyclists (only motorised vehicles);)

I have absolutely no problem with fixed penalties being introduced and enforced for clear law breaking by cyclists. I would guess that in practice any "clamp down" will primarily focus on red light jumping - this is one thing that winds motorists up possibly more than any other (and indeed the I suspect a significant majority of cyclists would actually condemn it). It's the one area where we have had numerous reports of court summons being issued to cyclists which is a bit OTT when motorists can usually avoid any court appearance for similar breaches of the law

Gongoozler

I understand the annoyance at the red light jumping, and beginning cycling around dublin city recently, I was well prepared to stick to the rules. The issue I have with red lights is they'll suddenly change, and for a cyclist to get going and gain speed in front of a line of cars, it would seem to make sense to me to allow cyclists get a head start. I could actually swear that I read something like this in the rules of the road - that it is recommended. I always feel like I'm holding up the people in cars behind me, so I've started taking off just before the lights change to green (provided I can tell). I think in terms of keeping traffic flowing, it's best like this.

monkeypants

In the same paper there's another article about this plan to reduce Garda numbers by 1,000. As much as hardy anyone has a problem with this proposal in theory, cyclist or motorist, without enforcement it's not going to amount to much.

Beasty

Gongoozler wrote: »

it would seem to make sense to me to allow cyclists get a head start. I could actually swear that I read something like this in the rules of the road - that it is recommended.

Cyclists are not entitled to any "head start". Indeed trying to get away before the lights change is particularly dangerous given the blatant red light breaking often done my motor vehiclse trying to get through after the lights change from green. You will often find cars still flying through the junction when the lights have changed to green for vehicles coming in other direction.

Usually there is a bit of a "holding area" in front of where motorists are allowed to stop which should give opportunity to get away ahead of motor vehicles (except when motor vehicles encroach into it:rolleyes:).

Gongoozler

Well obviously I don't go if there's a chance of a vehicle coming that way. I can watch lights very well, as I always have done, and I know when it's safe to go ahead - I wouldn't take the chance otherwise.

And yeah the 'holding area' would be great if it were actually everywhere, but not once have I come across this on the routes I've taken. It would still leave me with the same issue anyway.

Dyr

Inquitus wrote: »

And a huge swathe of car drivers are the same, only they pilot @ 1 tonne vehicles capable of doing 120kph+

But oddly enough the car drivers dont use the footpath as their own personal highway

seamus

Bambi wrote: »

But oddly enough the card drivers dont use the footpath as their own personal highway

No, just as their own private parking spot.

Dyr

seamus wrote: »

No, just as their own private parking spot.

Unlike cyclists?

Gongoozler

I have gotten annoyed too at cyclists on footpaths, but tbh there are so many one way systems in Dublin that I don't blame them now that I'm a cyclist - most of those cycling on the footpath that I've encountered so far have been going the opposite way to the traffic.
If I ever have to bring the bike up onto the path, I do so only when necessary, and I don't ding people out of my way. Some people are just ignorant though and will expect that you should move for them to get past. That's a people issue, not a cyclist one.

Potatoeman

What about pedestrians that just step out onto the road or the growing number of drivers unable to indicate?

Licences are impractical, if they want to educate people they should bring in training at schools and increase the number of bike lanes. There are far too many disappearing and reappearing lanes around the city.

I don’t cycle around Dublin city much as I have seen two cyclists get hit by cars. You can dislike cyclists particularly bad ones all you like but a bad driver in far more likely too kill someone.

RED Lynam

seamus wrote: »

And then when nobody under 16 is riding a bike anymore we'll wonder why obesity has become our number 1 health problem and there are no bike shops left in Ireland.

Obesity in children under the age of 16 doesn't have anything to do with the access of bikes. Children under 16 are USUALLY obese cause they are bone ass lazy and care more about their computer games/mobile phones than actually getting out and doing something with themselves. Obesity in children under 16 also has a lot to do with bad parenting and dietary habits.

Cycling in this city is very accessible and I love cycling around town but there are a lot of cyclists that aren't great at it. What I would be more concerned about are cyclists who don't use front or rear lights and people who cycle under the influence.

Gongoozler

I've seen plenty of pedestrians doing stupid things, probably a few more drivers doing stupid things, and of course cyclists. I think people are the problem here, lack of awareness of possible dangers they are causing, and lack of fear a lot of the time.

Pride Fighter

The true menace of the roads are cars and trucks. I used to cycle and all of the friends I know who do cycle have had near death experiences, all due to bad driving by people in cars or truck drivers who may be bad drivers or just unaware of the numerous blind spots their vehicles have.

Most of the near catastrophic incidences I have had are with bad drivers who did not indicate and nearly ploughed into me, once it looked as though I was going to get hit, but the car slammed on the breaks and stopped and the driver started beeping and shouting at me. Maybe he should have indicated is what I said along with some expletitives and certain hand signals.

The same applies for motorbikes. People have this perception as motorbike drivers as a menace and something dangerous to do. It would not be dangerous if drivers were better as nearly 3 quarters of motorbike crashes are caused by bad car drivers.

A driver should not be allowed to drive a car unless they have experience cycling and driving a motorbike. The best car drivers I know cycle to work or use a motorbike at weekends. Most other car drivers are atrociously bad, with exceptions though.

previous user

WileyCoyote wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fixed-penalties-on-way-to-curb-unruly-cyclists-3343449.html

Dublin's unruly cyclists, who have been described by pedestrians as often resembling "winged rats", face fixed penalties in the wake of an intervention by Transport Minister Leo Varadkar.

The behaviour of some of the city's cyclists has become an increasing source of concern to the gardai who have been inundated with complaints from policing committees and citizens.

Personally I believe it is time that those cyclists who have no regard for the rules of the road were tackled, not sure I would describe cyclists as rats though, seems a bit trollish!

I do agree but at the same time the coucil should be making better cycle paths instead of letting them be cut off at certain points in a journey.

seamus

Bambi wrote: »

Unlike cyclists?

Cyclists are permitted to park their bike on the path.

StinkyMunkey

I've been everything in this thread - a pedestrian, a cyclist, car driver & motorcyclist.

I believe in common courtesy and common sense.

I don't play with traffic as a pedestrian.

I don't break red lights as a motorist, drive down one way streets, change lanes without looking, I don't drive on the pavement, undertake on the inside etc....

I don't break red lights as a motorcyclist, drive down one way streets, change lanes without looking, I don't drive on the pavement, undertake on the inside etc....

I don't break red lights as a cyclist, cycle down one way streets, change lanes without looking, I don't cycle on the pavement, undertake on the inside etc....

I'm not without faults, I've made mistakes. But not knowingly break every rule of the road as often as I can. A large portion of cyclists in Dublin (i say Dublin because ive no experience in other counties) have a total disregard for the rules of the road. It would be funny had cyclists not given me so many scares, I drive through town every day, and see first hand just how bad they are. I make it a point to give them a wide berth.

Not all cyclists in Dublin are lunatics, but are huge percentage are. I'm lot as wary with any other road user.

Sure their are bad pedestrian's, motorist's & motorcyclist's. But from first hand experience not nearly the ratio that is that of cyclists.

Potatoeman

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The true menace of the roads are cars and trucks. I used to cycle and all of the friends I know who do cycle have had near death experiences, all due to bad driving by people in cars or truck drivers who may be bad drivers or just unaware of the numerous blind spots their vehicles have.

Most of the near catastrophic incidences I have had are with bad drivers who did not indicate and nearly ploughed into me, once it looked as though I was going to get hit, but the car slammed on the breaks and stopped and the driver started beeping and shouting at me. Maybe he should have indicated is what I said along with some expletitives and certain hand signals.

The same applies for motorbikes. People have this perception as motorbike drivers as a menace and something dangerous to do. It would not be dangerous if drivers were better as nearly 3 quarters of motorbike crashes are caused by bad car drivers.

A driver should not be allowed to drive a car unless they have experience cycling and driving a motorbike. The best car drivers I know cycle to work or use a motorbike at weekends. Most other car drivers are atrociously bad, with exceptions though.

Motorbikes in the city shouldn’t weave and speed as much. Speeding up the outside of parked traffic is also dangerous not to mention veering onto the wrong side of the road to by pass traffic. If you hit someone you will probably kill them a cyclist probably won’t.

RainyDay

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Not all cyclists in Dublin are lunatics, but are huge percentage are. I'm lot as wary with any other road user.

More than the 78% of motorists that break speed limits?

mcmoustache

I agree, stinky. Cycling is my only means of transportation in dublin and the proportion of cyclists in need of an education is stupidly high. I presume that this is because to ride a bike, you only have to get access to a bike. A driver goes through lessons and a test at the very least. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of terrible drivers out there but at least they are partially aware of what they should be doing. I'm also not advocating cyclist registration - see seamus's post earlier.

Unfortunately, there is almost no chance of enforcement of traffic legislation on cyclists as the law stands. I think that a sudden and well publicised clampdown, even if only on the obvious ones like RLJing, footpath cycling and salmon cycling would quickly remove dangerous gobshítes from the road and make others cop on a bit. It might also raise a few bob. Proper cyclists would be unaffected by this (as long as there was an appeals process for those times when a traffic guard gets it wrong).

Fr_Dougal

Potatoeman wrote: »

Motorbikes in the city shouldn’t weave and speed as much. Speeding up the outside of parked traffic is also dangerous not to mention veering onto the wrong side of the road to by pass traffic. If you hit someone you will probably kill them a cyclist probably won’t.

That's a pretty uninformed post.

Potatoeman

mcmoustache wrote: »

I agree, stinky. Cycling is my only means of transportation in dublin and the proportion of cyclists in need of an education is stupidly high. I presume that this is because to ride a bike, you only have to get access to a bike. A driver goes through lessons and a test at the very least. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of terrible drivers out there but at least they are partially aware of what they should be doing. I'm also not advocating cyclist registration - see seamus's post earlier.

Unfortunately, there is almost no chance of enforcement of traffic legislation on cyclists as the law stands. I think that a sudden and well publicised clampdown, even if only on the obvious ones like RLJing, footpath cycling and salmon cycling would quickly remove dangerous gobshítes from the road and make others cop on a bit. It might also raise a few bob. Proper cyclists would be unaffected by this (as long as there was an appeals process for those times when a traffic guard gets it wrong).

Cyclist should not be sharing the road with vehicles what we really need is cycle lanes on footpaths. The Dutch seem to have it down.

StinkyMunkey

Potatoeman wrote: »

Motorbikes in the city shouldn’t weave and speed as much. Speeding up the outside of parked traffic is also dangerous not to mention veering onto the wrong side of the road to by pass traffic. If you hit someone you will probably kill them a cyclist probably won’t.

Quiet true, it's rarely a cyclist kills anyone only themselves.

Motorists generally kill more pedestrians and cyclists because of the motorbike to car ratio on the roads.

The problem with motorcyclists is they will also probably die as well if the hit a cyclists. I remember one nasty experience where a cyclist came through a red light at a major junction in town causing me to hit all the hammers and emergency break (I was on my motorbike), I nearly shat myself, gave me quiet a scare. Luckily I wasn't speeding and half anticipated it.

Potatoeman

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Quiet true, it's rarely a cyclist kills anyone only themselves.

Motorists generally kill more pedestrians and cyclists because of the motorbike to car ratio on the roads.

The problem with motorcyclists is they will also probably die as well if the hit a cyclists. I remember one nasty experience where a cyclist came through a red light at a major junction in town causing me to hit all the hammers and emergency break (I was on my motorbike), I nearly shat myself, gave me quiet a scare. Luckily I wasn't speeding and half anticipated it.

We also don’t have enough pedestrian crossings. Motorcyclists travelling in stationary traffic can surprise pedestrians especially when passing large vehicles.

seamus

RED Lynam wrote: »

Obesity in children under the age of 16 doesn't have anything to do with the access of bikes. Children under 16 are USUALLY obese cause they are bone ass lazy and care more about their computer games/mobile phones than actually getting out and doing something with themselves. Obesity in children under 16 also has a lot to do with bad parenting and dietary habits.

It's more complex than that, and it's more complex than bikes. But in terms of transport options for medium-length trips, children from 12 to 18 generally have 3 options - cycle, bus or get a lift. If you take away cycling, then you remove the only option which provides any degree of exercise. It exacerbates a number of problems, not only obesity but traffic congestion & road safety (less cyclists == more dangerous roads).

Cycling in this city is very accessible and I love cycling around town but there are a lot of cyclists that aren't great at it.

It's no different from driving in my experience. A lot of drivers are really, really bad at it too. Breaches by people on bikes may appear more blatant, but that's only because they get away with it.

Remove the "getting away with it" element by enforcing the laws and you'll find behaviour among cyclists improves dramatically. People aren't bad at using the roads because they're ignorant, they're bad at using the roads because they're selfish and arrogant and will do whatever they can get away with.

StinkyMunkey

RainyDay wrote: »

More than the 78% of motorists that break speed limits?

Bicycles generally don't come with engines (as in petrol ones), so don't have many opportunities to break the speed limit. This thread is about bad cyclists not speeding motorists!

Potatoeman

seamus wrote: »

It's more complex than that, and it's more complex than bikes. But in terms of transport options for medium-length trips, children from 12 to 18 generally have 3 options - cycle, bus or get a lift. If you take away cycling, then you remove the only option which provides any degree of exercise. It exacerbates a number of problems, not only obesity but traffic congestion & road safety (less cyclists == more dangerous roads).
It's no different from driving in my experience. A lot of drivers are really, really bad at it too. Breaches by people on bikes may appear more blatant, but that's only because they get away with it.

Remove the "getting away with it" element by enforcing the laws and you'll find behaviour among cyclists improves dramatically. People aren't bad at using the roads because they're ignorant, they're bad at using the roads because they're selfish and arrogant and will do whatever they can get away with.

I agree that dangerous cyclist should be fined but there are some circumstances where breaking the rules of the road is the safer option. If we had proper bike lanes that didn’t disappear or have people parked in them it would help.

Potatoeman

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Bicycles generally don't come with engines (as in petrol ones), so don't have many opportunities to break the speed limit. This thread is about bad cyclists not speeding motorists!

It’s relevant because vehicles with engines can kill people fairly easily.

StinkyMunkey

Potatoeman wrote: »

It’s relevant because vehicles with engines can kill people fairly easily.

I agree, any vehicle with an engine generally has the chance to kill someone if it hits them. But is that not off topic?

Potatoeman

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

I agree, any vehicle with an engine generally has the chance to kill someone if it hits them. But is that not off topic?

Not really as it raises the question if dangerous pedestrians should be fined.

opti0nal

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Bicycles generally don't come with engines (as in petrol ones), so don't have many opportunities to break the speed limit. This thread is about bad cyclists not speeding motorists!

Preventing death and injury should the highest concern, not picking on one type of road user.

The point I was making is that despite a licensing system, training and testing, most drivers break the law most of the time. It was proposed that a similar regime be imposed on cyclists, I think it would have a negligible outcome in terms of compliance.

Diverting scarce resources to prosecuting the nuisance of errant cyclists and away from the very real threat posed by drivers shows a lack of risk awareness.