electric shower

navara man

would it be legal for a non electrician to wire up a new electric shower even if it done to same sandard of a qualified electrician ?

2011

This would be "permitted" once the work is certified.
However it would probably be cheaper to pay an electrician to do it.

EDIT: Correction, electrical work such as wiring a shower must be carried out by a qualified electrician.

M cebee

it can't be done to the same standard

how is the non-electrician going to test his work-assuming he did everything right which is extremely unlikely ime?

2011

M cebee wrote: »

it can't be done to the same standard

Why not?
If it is tested, passed and certified (and this can only be done by a suitably qualified person) it is up to the required standard

how is the non-electrician going to test his work-assuming he did everything right which is extremely unlikely ime?

Point taken, but this is a seperate question to what the OP asked.
I wired, tested and had the installation certified before I qualified as an electrician, so it can be done.

Davy

I may be wrong here, but always thought if you were being paid for a job, doing something outside your own home then you need to certified, insurance etc.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

Why not?
If it is tested, passed and certified by (and this can only be done by a suitably qualified person) it is up to the required standard


Point taken, but this is a seperate question to what the OP asked.
I wired, tested and had the installation certified before I qualified as an electrician, so it can be done.

non-electrician to me means handyman
i just rule it out personally as i don't believe it's possible at all -based on what i've seen over the years

rockatansky

When you say wire up, are you talking about wiring it up from the main board, or just replacing an old shower with a new one?

Is it legal for any one just to replace an old electric shower (in their own home) with a new one or would this have to be done by a qualified electrician also?

2011

Davy wrote: »

I may be wrong here, but always thought if you were being paid for a job, doing something outside your own home then you need to certified, insurance etc.

I think you are correct about insurance. However the OP never mentioned payment or if the job in question was outside of his home.

It is possible to get the ECSSA or RECI to certify (for a fee). I have done this in the past.

Personally, I would only do electrical installation work if I had the correct insurance in place and was able to provide the correct paperwork (cert. etc.).

hufpc8w3adnk65

I agree with the point of an non quailified person cannot carry out the works as good as a quailified person!

Theres a reason we spend 4r5 years too finish our trade!!If you trust a "handy man" or "jack of all trades" with your life or better still your family's (yes thats what it boils down too) then go ahead! Water and Electricity has the potential too kill a person with just ONE small mistake
Theres more too wireing an electric shower then running the cable

*Earthing issue's
*Main tail's
*Bath & Hot press's bonded
*Correct circut breaker's
Etc Etc Etc


Not as easy as Blue too Blue and Brown too Brown (From an electrcician of 15 years)

M cebee

yes
-the non-electrician will connect up and hope it's alright
-no testing
-and what he doesn't know doesn't bother him

that's what you get for your money

2011

MrMac84 wrote: »

I agree with the point of an non quailified person cannot carry out the works as good as a quailified person!

Agreed, I too would expect a qualified person to produce a higher standard of work. But the question as to can someone that is not a qualified electrician can produce work of the same standard is a separate topic.

Theres more too wireing an electric shower then running the cable

*Earthing issue's
*Main tail's
*Bath & Hot press's bonded
*Correct circut breaker's
Etc Etc Etc

Agreed totally and all of your points are valid, but the question the OP asked is a question of legality. The answer to that question is legally you do not have to be a qualified electrician. The fact that you and I may have fundamental issues with this is a separate matter.

It is important to note that the OP specifically stated the work would be "done to same sandard of a qualified electrician". Therefore the answer only applies to that situation.

From an electrcician of 15 years

Points well made by an experienced electrician.
...from an electrician of over nearly 20 years :eek: God I feel old!

2011

M cebee wrote: »

yes
-the non-electrician will connect up and hope it's alright

That is not what is suggested.

My answer to the OP in my first reply is the opposite:
"This would be "permitted" once the work is certified"

In a nutshell, electrical work carried out by anyone to the correct standard that is certified (and therefore independently tested by a suitably qualified person) is permitted.

frankmul

My answer to the OP in my first reply is the opposite:
"This would be "permitted" once the work is certified"

In a nutshell, electrical work carried out by anyone to the correct standard that is certified (and therefore independently tested by a suitably qualified person) is permitted.[/Quote]

are RECI and ECSSA issuing certs to people who are not qualified?

2011

frankmul wrote: »

are RECI and ECSSA issuing certs to people who are not qualified?

Yes, RECI did this for me before I was qualified.

M cebee

-reci won't issue a cert without PL
-presumably you need a qualification to get PL

-is none of this work restricted in any way to 'qualified' persons

leeomurchu

M cebee wrote: »

-reci won't issue a cert without PL
-presumably you need a qualification to get PL

-is none of this work restricted in any way to 'qualified' persons

Eccsa will issue a cert without public liability but I don't think either of them will issue a cert to an unqualified spark. I think it states on the cert that the qualified electrician who carried out the work has to be present on site when testing is being carried out and sign the cert also.


That being said I've used them on previous jobs and not once have they asked to see my card so it could have been bob the builder signing off on it for all they were concerned.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

-reci won't issue a cert without PL
-presumably you need a qualification to get PL

-is none of this work restricted in any way to 'qualified' persons

Perhaps RECI won't anymore without insurance but they did for me. ECSSA will certify for a fee. I rang them recently and insurance was not a requirement.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps RECI won't anymore without insurance but they did for me. ECSSA will certify for a fee. I rang them recently and insurance was not a requirement.

yes but as above
-do they stipulate a qualified electrician who carried out the work should be present?

leeomurchu

M cebee wrote: »

yes but as above
-do they stipulate a qualified electrician who carried out the work should be present?

They do.

M cebee

leeomurchu wrote: »

They do.

so thats that then!

leeomurchu

M cebee wrote: »

so thats that then!

haha true but that's in a perfect world as I was saying earlier it could've been anybody signing it.

Also you have to carry out insul. res, faut loop tests etc and send them in with you application. I doubt a handy man would have a megger or Robin meters and they're pricey to rent but then again who's to say a handy man wouldn't just enter nominal values.

M cebee

leeomurchu wrote: »

haha true but that's in a perfect world as I was saying earlier it could've been anybody signing it.

Also you have to carry out insul. res, faut loop tests etc and send them in with you application. I doubt a handy man would have a megger or Robin meters and they're pricey to rent but then again who's to say a handy man wouldn't just enter nominal values.

yes you have to fill out a sheet for inspector
-that is beyond the capabilities of a handyman realistically

leeomurchu

M cebee wrote: »

yes you have to fill out a sheet for inspector
-that is beyond the capabilities of a handyman realistically

Yeah but internet is full of all kinds of info

frankmul

leeomurchu wrote: »

haha true but that's in a perfect world as I was saying earlier it could've been anybody signing it.

Also you have to carry out insul. res, faut loop tests etc and send them in with you application. I doubt a handy man would have a megger or Robin meters and they're pricey to rent but then again who's to say a handy man wouldn't just enter nominal values.

don't they do some tests themselves and comparye to the test record sheet

2011

M cebee wrote: »

yes but as above
-do they stipulate a qualified electrician who carried out the work should be present?

I take it all back, following a Google I think you are correct!

I just had a look at the form from the ECSSA, here.

I see that it states:

Have your Electrician complete & sign the attached TEST RECORD SHEET.

This suggests to me that despite my experience in the past the situation now is that a qualified electrician must carry out the work.

M cebee

frankmul wrote: »

don't they do some tests themselves and comparye to the test record sheet

they do afaik

leeomurchu

frankmul wrote: »

don't they do some tests themselves and comparye to the test record sheet

they do.

2011

frankmul wrote: »

don't they do some tests themselves and comparye to the test record sheet

They did with me.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

I take it all back, following a Google I think you are correct!

I just had a look at the form from the ECSSA, here.

I see that it states:


This suggests to me that despite my experience in the past the situation now is that a qualified electrician must carry out the work.

ya
tbh i agree with your viewpoint

-if hypothetically, a non-spark is able to do a job 100% and fill out paperwork

i don't see a problem notwithstanding the issue of insurance

realistically i can't envisage such a scenario

liveandnetural

navara man wrote: »

would it be legal for a non electrician to wire up a new electric shower even if it done to same sandard of a qualified electrician ?

why do you ask???have you fitted the shower yourself or has some fiited a shower for you

the answer to your legal question is in here
http://www.cer.ie/en/electricity-safety-controlled-works.aspx

M cebee

liveandnetural wrote: »

why do you ask???have you fitted the shower yourself or has some fiited a shower for you

the answer to your legal question is in here
http://www.cer.ie/en/electricity-safety-controlled-works.aspx

what does it say on it?

leeomurchu

M cebee wrote: »

what does it say on it?

It just echoes what's already been said. I think this thread is done.

whizbang

. I think this thread is done.

Please dont give up that easily! All I read from this thread; only one poster gave a distinct answer, all others appear to be clueless about the OP's question.

The referenced document is as clear as mud. It appears to apply only to registered tradespersons ????

leeomurchu

whizbang wrote: »

Please dont give up that easily! All I read from this thread; only one poster gave a distinct answer, all others appear to be clueless about the OP's question.

The referenced document is as clear as mud. It appears to apply only to registered tradespersons ????

I thought it was quite clear seeing as how it makes reference to both registered and non registered contractors and the routes each should take.

It doesn't make reference to a handyman (regardless of ability which may well be better than some qualified electricians) as electrical work should be carried out by qualified electricians.

Yes a handyman may well be able to carry out the work but it'll never be to the same standard as an electrician as he is unable to test or certify his work.

frankmul

Here is some light reading for everyone

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1999/en/act/pub/0023/index.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0009/index.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0040/sec0002.html#sec2

http://www.cer.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=886952c8-f9c5-4685-b5eb-782f0161b49d

Might I suggest reconvening in a weeks time when we all have read the Revelant acts?

leeomurchu

frankmul wrote: »

Here is some light reading for everyone

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1999/en/act/pub/0023/index.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0009/index.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0040/sec0002.html#sec2

http://www.cer.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=886952c8-f9c5-4685-b5eb-782f0161b49d

Might I suggest reconvening in a weeks time when we all have read the Revelant acts?

Pass thanks, send me the minutes

frankmul

I think is what has been said, all electrical work needs to be certified from industrial to replacing a shower with a minor work cert. You need to be qualified to get a cert, whatever about pl. CER have the power to issue legal proceedings if necessary.

navara man

thank for replies i leave to electrician so. i got a quote for 500 for job i guess not bad for a qualified electrician

whizbang

Controlled Works are major electrical installation works (including additions,
alterations and/or extensions) which are covered by the National Wiring Rules and
which involve:

1. the installation, commissioning, inspection, and testing of a new fixed
electrical installation requiring connection or reconnection to the electricity
network;

2. the installation or replacement of a Distribution Board or Consumer Unit,
or new installation in special locations as defined in Part 7 of the National
Wiring Rules ET101 and ET105;

3. the installation or replacement of one or more extra circuits in an existing
installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices
for such circuits on a distribution board;

4. Subsystems installed in Commercial, Industrial, and Domestic installations
where the installation falls within the remit of the National Wiring Rules;

5. the inspection, testing and certification of existing electrical installations
(in accordance with Chapter 62 of the Wiring Rules (ET 101 –Fourth Edition-
2008 and to conform with Regulation 89 of SI No 732 of 2007

So: as long as its not one of the above, or anr restricted works, then no legal requirements exist ???

frankmul

whizbang wrote: »

So: as long as its not one of the above, or anr restricted works, then no legal requirements exist ???

Having read through The definition of control work, you are right whizbang, I went too far with the requirements for certification. I looks like there is no cert required for the direct replacement of a shower. If that is what the op is doing then legally anyone can do it,
A quote of 500 sounds a bit more that a direct replacement, so maybe the job does require certification.

leeomurchu

navara man wrote: »

thank for replies i leave to electrician so. i got a quote for 500 for job i guess not bad for a qualified electrician

€500??? :eek:

Is that for a direct Replacement of just the shower unit or wiring,plumbing and fitting new shower?

For a direct replacement I'd have though €350-€400 would be closer the mark depending on distance travelled could be higher/lower

Does it not state on the shower itself that it should be installed by a qualified electrician and I'm sure it'd have a knock on effect on your house insurance.

Either way would you let a handy man perform heart surgery on you or would you rather a surgeon did it?

Horses for courses and all that.

Bruthal

leeomurchu wrote: »

Either way would you let a handy man perform heart surgery on you or would you rather a surgeon did it?

People would be more choosy in picking a car mechanic etc, than a surgeon if needed.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Is it a mains shower or a pumped shower?And is it a full installtion or replacement job?

navara man

MrMac84 wrote: »

Is it a mains shower or a pumped shower?And is it a full installtion or replacement job?

full installtion pumped shower

leeomurchu

robbie7730 wrote: »

People would be more choosy in picking a car mechanic etc, than a surgeon if needed.

Maybe you would be happy with a random surgeon operating on you but given the choice I'd want the most qualified.

2011 running with the herd again.. haha :rolleyes:

Bruthal

leeomurchu wrote: »

Maybe you would be happy with a random surgeon operating on you but given the choice I'd want the most qualified.

Never said what I would be happy with or not. But dont forget to vet your anesthetist too, with whom your first words to are likely to be a short count into unconsciousness. Three times last year in a week, and still I didnt know her name:)

2011 running with the herd again.. haha :rolleyes:

That roll eyes should be banned. Stupid bloody thing.

leeomurchu

robbie7730 wrote: »

Never said what I would be happy with or not. But dont forget to vet your anesthetist too, with whom your first words to are likely to be a short count into unconsciousness. Three times last year in a week, and still I didnt know her name:)



That roll eyes should be banned. Stupid bloody thing.

Ah yes but aren't they all qualified to do the job in hand which is the point in question is it not?

Ban it I think you should be able to label some folk with it

Bruthal

leeomurchu wrote: »

Ah yes but aren't they all qualified to do the job in hand which is the point in question is it not?

Ban it I think you should be able to label some folk with it

Put in a new socket, and its probably over regulated, jobs for the boys type stuff.

Put in a new heart, patient dies on table, and its "next please".

2011

Most people that pay for electrical work lack any understanding of the technicalities involved or the risks they are exposed to when they employ someone other that a qualified electrician to carry out electrical work.

They will often select an individual to carry out electrical work based on very different criteria that an individual with electrical training might. For example Mrs. Smith may select the local handyman, Bob Gunter to carry out some electrical work because be won't go wrecking her patio by installing a "useless" earth electrode and besides she may want someone will also paint the kitchen and fix that leaky tap while they are at it.

To many if the electrical work appears to be neat, they turn on the light switch and the light comes on they are convinced that it is a job well done. They do not look beyond that nor do they care once the price is right.

Generally speaking a handyman will get away with it too. This is because 99% of the time costly items such as MCBs, RCDs and earthing systems make no difference to the operation of the electrical system that the end user can see. They could have the entire house on one circuit with sockets in the bathroom, no earths and the cooker wired in flex and still be perceived as an electrical genius. I have even seen 230V lights wired in alarm cable by one proud handyman.

This is why the conscientious electrical contractor that insists on doing everything by the book can loose out. He has to pay for all of the things that the handyman that dose not bother with such as insurance, proper cable sizes, larger distribution boards, certification, reasonable rates of pay for electricians etc. It is may view that that is part of the reason that so many electricians find themselves without employment or poorly paid.

Apologies if this appears to be "running with the herd" :D:D

hufpc8w3adnk65

navara man wrote: »

full installtion pumped shower

Well then i think thats a fair price.Just make sure you get a Mira Elite ST or a Triton T80z.Both are top notch reliable showers!

2011

I think this thread has run its course now.