Use of the term 'ELITE' in current sporting set-ups

NIMAN

I was listening to a radio interview tonight when Jamie Heaslip used the 'Elite' term on a number of occasions when referring to the players on the Ireland panel (this thread could equally be in the boxing forum, as I have heard our boxers refer to themselves being part of the elite boxing group).

Do these current sports people consider themselves 'elite' I wonder?

What about our boxers and rugby players of yesteryear? Were they elite or not?

godtabh

An oylmpic boxer/rugby international would surely be considered elite athletes as opposed to you or me?

Clareman

I always thought it was just a way to show the difference between levels of players, Academy, Club, Internationals and Elite, you can be an international player but not be on an Elite contract, Mike Mc and DoC v2 would be examples.

irishbucsfan

It's all relative

NIMAN

godtabh wrote: »

An oylmpic boxer/rugby international would surely be considered elite athletes as opposed to you or me?

Agreed, but then again sports 'stars' of years gone by were also elite compared to the common man in the street, but they didn't call themselves 'elite'. The coaches are also termed as 'elite', they must have specialised training too!;)

Perhaps its just a phrase or buzz word that you see in the modern world that you wouldn't have seen in the past, such as Team Ireland or Team GB (whats wrong with plain old Ireland?).

Gambas

'Elite' athletes are created in a 'Centre of Excellence'.

Like in Wicklow GAA Centre of Excellence.

http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/sport/gaelic-football/good-progress-on-gaas-centre-of-excellence-2878450.html

leonidas83

NIMAN wrote: »

I was listening to a radio interview tonight when Jamie Heaslip used the 'Elite' term on a number of occasions when referring to the players on the Ireland panel (this thread could equally be in the boxing forum, as I have heard our boxers refer to themselves being part of the elite boxing group).

Do these current sports people consider themselves 'elite' I wonder?

What about our boxers and rugby players of yesteryear? Were they elite or not?

Well they've been far from Elite the way they've been playing lately & I would include his performances in that. I dont think its necessary to use the word Elite as it has connotations with greatness & standing out above the rest. The Irish team are far from that at the moment, the sooner O'Connell & O'Driscoll are back the better. The less airtime this idiot has can only be a good thing, he should stick to his twitter page

beaner88

What is the problem? They are the sporting elite, competing in the top 1% of their field.

CatFromHue

leonidas83 wrote: »

Well they've been far from Elite the way they've been playing lately & I would include his performances in that. I dont think its necessary to use the word Elite as it has connotations with greatness & standing out above the rest. The Irish team are far from that at the moment, the sooner O'Connell & O'Driscoll are back the better. The less airtime this idiot has can only be a good thing, he should stick to his twitter page

B&I Lions
Ireland
Ireland A
Leinster HEC
Leinster Rabo
Leinster B&I
AIL Club 1sts
AIL Club 2nds
AIL Club 3rds

He is playing at many levels above me and at the highest level possible so the use of word elite is correct.

leonidas83

CatFromHue wrote: »

B&I Lions
Ireland
Ireland A
Leinster HEC
Leinster Rabo
Leinster B&I
AIL Club 1sts
AIL Club 2nds
AIL Club 3rds

He is playing at many levels above me and at the highest level possible so the use of word elite is correct.

Hasnt made the Lions 2013 squad yet & I doubt he will, just because he's playing many levels above you doesnt mean he's elite

irishbucsfan

leonidas83 wrote: »

Hasnt made the Lions 2013 squad yet & I doubt he will, just because he's playing many levels above you doesnt mean he's elite

He was a Lion last time out and was one of the best players on the tour, so he is still a Lion. And when his name is called out by Gatland in April he'll be a Lion again.

CatFromHue

leonidas83 wrote: »

Hasnt made the Lions 2013 squad yet & I doubt he will, just because he's playing many levels above you doesnt mean he's elite

I suppose it's like ex presidents of USA in that they're called President XYZ even after they leave office.

He's played in three Lions tests so to me he is a Lion even if he's not selected on this years tour.

It's not just that he's playing many levels above me it's that he's playing at the highest level available that only a small number can play at. That's what's elite.

Felexicon

leonidas83 wrote: »

Hasnt made the Lions 2013 squad yet & I doubt he will, just because he's playing many levels above you doesnt mean he's elite

Really? You do know what elite means don't you?

e·lite

/ɪˈlit, eɪˈlit/ Show Spelled [ih-leet, ey-leet]
noun 1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

So the fact that players are good enough to play at the highest level makes them elite athletes.
This is fact.
If you beleive Jamie Heaslip to be good enough for the B&I Lions team is opinion. One I disagree with you on but that's for a different thread

leonidas83

Felexicon wrote: »

Really? You do know what elite means don't you?

e·lite

/ɪˈlit, eɪˈlit/ Show Spelled [ih-leet, ey-leet]
noun 1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

So the fact that players are good enough to play at the highest level makes them elite athletes.
This is fact.
If you beleive Jamie Heaslip to be good enough for the B&I Lions team is opinion. One I disagree with you on but that's for a different thread

Just as a matter of interest would ye consider the Russian national team or Romania's players to be elite aswell

Felexicon

leonidas83 wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest would ye consider the Russian national team or Romania's players to be elite aswell

In comparison to the level of play at lower levels in their respective countries, yes I do.

Skid

NIMAN wrote: »

Perhaps its just a phrase or buzz word that you see in the modern world that you wouldn't have seen in the past, such as Team Ireland or Team GB (whats wrong with plain old Ireland?).

The use of the term 'elite' when referring to top level athletes is not a recent development by any means.

leonidas83

Felexicon wrote: »

In comparison to the level of play at lower levels in their respective countries, yes I do.

Yes but would they or others refer to themselves as such, I seriously doubt they would & thats the same for the Irish team, they have no business referring to themselves in that context with the way they have playing lately although technically may be correct.

For me the elite's in this sport currently would be NZ, SA, Australia & France. Not this Irish team who are only one spot ahead of Samoa ffs.

Felexicon

leonidas83 wrote: »

Yes but would they or others refer to themselves as such, I seriously doubt they would & thats the same for the Irish team, they have no business referring to themselves in that context with the way they have playing lately although technically may be correct.

For me the elite's in this sport currently would be NZ, SA, Australia & France. Not this Irish team who are only one spot ahead of Samoa ffs.

Ok. So if you want to concentrate solely on international rugby and act like there is no club competion or amatuer sides then yes you can say the only elite rugby players in the world are the starting 15s of those 4 countries.

Of course in reality it is not only international rugby that is played so your point loses relevance

irishbucsfan

We're not talking about which teams are elite though. It's about which players are elite. Even if the Irish side isn't elite by some interpretations of the term (although 6th in the world is pretty elite), there are players in the side who definitely are. Just as there are players in the Argentinian side who definitely are.

leonidas83

Felexicon wrote: »

Ok. So if you want to concentrate solely on international rugby and act like there is no club competion or amatuer sides then yes you can say the only elite rugby players in the world are the starting 15s of those 4 countries.

Of course in reality it is not only international rugby that is played so your point loses relevance

Club rugby is nowhere near as difficult, intense & competitive as International rugby so yes I think we should be only using those type of words in relation to those teams. Heaslip is good at talking the talk about himself & some of his over rated & over hyped team mates

Higher

leonidas83 wrote: »

Yes but would they or others refer to themselves as such, I seriously doubt they would & thats the same for the Irish team, they have no business referring to themselves in that context with the way they have playing lately although technically may be correct.

For me the elite's in this sport currently would be NZ, SA, Australia & France. Not this Irish team who are only one spot ahead of Samoa ffs.

hmmm Started for the Lions at 8 last time out. Sounds pretty elite.... How many 8s have there been for the Lions that have started all 3 games in its 130+ year history?

irishbucsfan

Higher wrote: »

hmmm Started for the Lions at 8 last time out. Sounds pretty elite.... How many 8s have there been for the Lions that have started all 3 games in its 130+ year history?

How many also started at 8 for the Grand Slam and Heineken Cup champions in the same year? :pac:

Higher

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How many also started at 8 for the Grand Slam and Heineken Cup champions in the same year? :pac:

I like this game. How many 8s in World Rugby have 3 HC medals?

Felexicon

leonidas83 wrote: »

Club rugby is nowhere near as difficult, intense & competitive as International rugby so yes I think we should be only using those type of words in relation to those teams. Heaslip is good at talking the talk about himself & some of his over rated & over hyped team mates

Well it seems you'd rather discuss the form of the current Irish squad as opposed to answer the question posed by the OP. For the sake of keeping the thread on topic I will agree to disagree with you on this one

who_me

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How many also started at 8 for the Grand Slam and Heineken Cup champions in the same year? :pac:

Maybe he's just really lucky. Like... "elite" lucky.

leonidas83

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We're not talking about which teams are elite though. It's about which players are elite. Even if the Irish side isn't elite by some interpretations of the term (although 6th in the world is pretty elite), there are players in the side who definitely are. Just as there are players in the Argentinian side who definitely are.

We may be 6th but there is a huge gap between us & the top four teams especially when the world cup comes around, thats the mark of an elite team.

In relation to individual players being elite, I agree with you there but I dont think anyone in the Irish squad is deserving of this praise at the moment. In the past I would have said O'Connell, O'Driscoll, O'Gara, Wood at times were at this level but I dont think anyone is deserving of this at the moment. Maybe Bowe & Sexton but thats stretching it.

Its the mindset I'm talking about, here we have the new Captain of Ireland (big mistake) talking about himself & a few others in the Irish squad being elite when in reality we havent had such an average squad in a long time. Even with much better Irish teams we've never made the last four of any world cup, even Scotland & Argentina have achieved this. He or anybody else that refer's to them as Elite in the sport of rugby is deluded.

justsomebloke

leonidas83 the topic is the use of the term 'elite', It's not about you taking pop shots at players. So please stick to the topic at hand or don't bother posting

justsomebloke

'Elite player' is just a coin of phrase used by the IRFU, so in interviews carried out by Irish players, they too will use the term for consistancy. Nothing more to it then that

JustinDee

leonidas83 wrote: »

For me the elite's in this sport currently would be NZ, SA, Australia & France. Not this Irish team who are only one spot ahead of Samoa ffs.

It refers to what would be considered the elite level of the game in Ireland and, subjectively, in each level leading to and residing within the professional Irish setup. That's about all there is to it really.
Just a term of reference.

Thud

it's just a word, get over it

Felexicon

Thud wrote: »

it's just a word, get over it

TBF though, as tea cakes go those are of an elite standard

irishbucsfan

Felexicon wrote: »

TBF though, as tea cakes go those are of an elite standard

Maybe in Ireland, but only an idiot would think they stack up against great international tea cake brands

CatFromHue

Thud wrote: »

it's just a word, get over it

Funnily enough that picture emphasises why I don't like the word elite.

It's usually used by individuals who actually aren't elite. Tunnocks Tea Cakes are elite, they're the Daddy of tea cakes. Jacobs are second division in comparison.

Jaime Heaslip is obviously an elite rugby player though.