home LPG supply for cars

iamthest1g

hi all

just wondering has anyone ventured down the road of getting an LPG outlet installed on your property and buying directly off the gas companies. if they can deliver domestic LPG supplies to houses can they deliver automotive LPG
really im wondering if its viable to get a tank installed at all, does anyone know the price of LPG off the likes of calor or flogas, and how much they would cost to install into the yard?

Seweryn

iamthest1g wrote: »

hi all

just wondering has anyone ventured down the road of getting an LPG outlet installed on your property and buying directly off the gas companies. if they can deliver domestic LPG supplies to houses can they deliver automotive LPG
really im wondering if its viable to get a tank installed at all, does anyone know the price of LPG off the likes of calor or flogas, and how much they would cost to install into the yard?

Did you work out how you are going to fill your car from the tank in the yard?

mullingar

http://www.lpgasuk.com/assets/docs/2200_Skid_Unit_Sep08.pdf

mickdw

mullingar wrote: »

http://www.lpgasuk.com/assets/docs/2200_Skid_Unit_Sep08.pdf

Now that is interesting.
Is it possible to actually get an lpg fill at home?

Stinicker

That tanks costs close to €3,000 though, I am also actively looking into getting a Bulk supply also.

Eric Cartman

Stinicker wrote: »

That tanks costs close to €3,000 though, I am also actively looking into getting a Bulk supply also.

A few outlets like the one on the n4 at palmerstown have a self contained unit with meter, nozzel and and tank , looks the job

Stinicker

Eric Cartman wrote: »

A few outlets like the one on the n4 at palmerstown have a self contained unit with meter, nozzel and and tank , looks the job

I was not aware there was a place selling LPG there, do you have details? I have a list of garages and places selling LPG so as to hedge my fuel effectively especially if I am going on a long journey. Those sort of units are more aimed at commercial retailers and you'd be looking at several thousand for one I'd say. The homefill tanks are a much simpler affair.

Eric Cartman

Stinicker wrote: »

I was not aware there was a place selling LPG there, do you have details? I have a list of garages and places selling LPG so as to hedge my fuel effectively especially if I am going on a long journey. Those sort of units are more aimed at commercial retailers and you'd be looking at several thousand for one I'd say. The homefill tanks are a much simpler affair.

The place is only there a month or so, its in the former lexus garage there between esso and that n4 car sales place, you can see the lpg unit in the yard and their sign says "lpg autogas"

Stinicker

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The place is only there a month or so, its in the former lexus garage there between esso and that n4 car sales place, you can see the lpg unit in the yard and their sign says "lpg autogas"

Great always good to know. I live in Kerry but up until a year ago there was no place selling lpg at all in Co. Dublin! That was crazy now there is several and many conversion places open too. I'm glad to see this small industry starting to take off.

Judge Weiner

If you get one of these tanks, I suspect you have a few visits from the council planning enforcement section and the chief fire officer.

mickdw

Judge Weiner wrote: »

If you get one of these tanks, I suspect you have a few visits from the council planning enforcement section and the chief fire officer.

You could always comply with their requirements

Matt Simis

Judge Weiner wrote: »

If you get one of these tanks, I suspect you have a few visits from the council planning enforcement section and the chief fire officer.

No you dont. Seriously people need to just call Calor or Flogas and ask about the Skid Pump Bulk tank install. There are requirements and inspections (not from the council or fire brigade!!), but its all sensible stuff.

Eric Cartman

Matt Simis wrote: »

No you dont. Seriously people need to just call Calor or Flogas and ask about the Skid Pump Bulk tank install. There are requirements and inspections (not from the council or fire brigade!!), but its all sensible stuff.

+1 Its probably just that it has its own circuit breaker, IP rated plugs and not within 5 meters of trees, wooden structures etc... Similar rules to petrol pumps.

iamthest1g

great responces so far, it seems very viable, does anyone have a ball park figure as to how much a skid unit costs all in? and the price of LPG these days?

mullingar

The Irish rules are here:

http://www.flogas.ie/index.php?id=64

green fuel for europe

Matt Simis wrote: »

No you dont. Seriously people need to just call Calor or Flogas and ask about the Skid Pump Bulk tank install. There are requirements and inspections (not from the council or fire brigade!!), but its all sensible stuff.

Do not forget the neighbors they are the ears and eyes of County Council, Fire Brigade etc...

stephendevlin

I imagine this would have a disastrous effect on your home insurance and if I am not mistaken those tanks would need to inspected regularly also adding to the cost.

mickdw

stephendevlin wrote: »

I imagine this would have a disastrous effect on your home insurance and if I am not mistaken those tanks would need to inspected regularly also adding to the cost.

The link to inspection rules and specification was earlier in this thread. Once yearly inspection, nothing too troublesome involved. Re house insurance, you are no doubt correct that the insurers would load your premium big time even though there is little reason to do so but as usual, any excuse.

galwaytt

stephendevlin wrote: »

I imagine this would have a disastrous effect on your home insurance and if I am not mistaken those tanks would need to inspected regularly also adding to the cost.

Nonsense. How do you think heating LPG is done ?

That skid is actually simpler and less risky than the installation for a heating system imho.

Annual inspection is standard for LPG installations already.

stephendevlin

galwaytt wrote: »

Nonsense. How do you think heating LPG is done ?
Annual inspection is standard for LPG installations already.

I made 2 points 1. Your insurance will go up (which it will) and 2. your tank will need to be inspected (which isnt done for free) .. whats nonsense about that?

Matt Simis

stephendevlin wrote: »

I made 2 points 1. Your insurance will go up (which it will) and 2. your tank will need to be inspected (which isnt done for free) .. whats nonsense about that?

Well you are wrong but are claiming it as fact is whats nonsense! I dont actually understand why you are even making these claims and fliing mud on something so new and tentative.

Does your insurance go up with an Kero Oil tank planted right outside your kids bedroom wall? Is it checked or inspected even?

The LPG tanks have subject to specific safety orientated installations (ie well away from your house), having multiple signoffs before commissioning (as does a NG/LPG boiler, separately) have safety cuttoffs/release valves, have 24hr support and have to use specific fire safe wiring going to/from them (if using pump or something, normal tank doesnt use power). Even the plastic used for the wiring surrounds have to be UV and penetration safe. Compared to the 25 year old used house purchase with drippy corroded Kero fittings and Z rated, gas leaking old Kero boiler, its a world of safety higher, insurance isnt affected. Besides, home insurance is pittance compared to car insurance or to the point of this thread, microscopic compared to fuel costs for a car. Its a null issue no matter how its sliced.


Inspections are required but they are performed by Calor / Flogas / Whoever as part of the service, its not an additional charge, its part of the existing pricing for tank rental.

As I already said, Calor and Flogas are just a phonecall away, why is there so much random guesswork going on in this thread? You make out like this is all iffy weird new stuff, thousands of people across the country have bulk LPG tanks at home for the last decade or more.

stephendevlin

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well you are wrong but are claiming it as fact is whats nonsense! I dont actually understand why you are even making these claims and fliing mud on something so new and tentative.

Does your insurance go up with an Kero Oil tank planted right outside your kids bedroom wall? Is it checked or inspected even?

The LPG tanks have subject to specific safety orientated installations (ie well away from your house), having multiple signoffs before commissioning (as does a NG/LPG boiler, separately) have safety cuttoffs/release valves, have 24hr support and have to use specific fire safe wiring going to/from them (if using pump or something, normal tank doesnt use power). Even the plastic used for the wiring surrounds have to be UV and penetration safe. Compared to the 25 year old used house purchase with drippy corroded Kero fittings and Z rated, gas leaking old Kero boiler, its a world of safety higher, insurance isnt affected. Besides, home insurance is pittance compared to car insurance or to the point of this thread, microscopic compared to fuel costs for a car. Its a null issue no matter how its sliced.


Inspections are required but they are performed by Calor / Flogas / Whoever as part of the service, its not an additional charge, its part of the existing pricing for tank rental.

As I already said, Calor and Flogas are just a phonecall away, why is there so much random guesswork going on in this thread? You make out like this is all iffy weird new stuff, thousands of people across the country have bulk LPG tanks at home for the last decade or more.

Wind your neck back in.

So you have just validated point 2, that it costs to have this inspected (I didnt say it was an extra!).

Point number 1 was about insurance, care to elaborate as to how my house insurance wont go up as I have a tank of LPG in the garden.

You seemed to babble on a bit there but what is it that I am claiming that is so wrong?

kirving

stephendevlin wrote: »

Point number 1 was about insurance, care to elaborate as to how my house insurance wont go up as I have a tank of LPG in the garden.

It'll probably go up somewhat, but I don't see how having such a tank is any more dangerous than a Kerosene tank, or plumbed natural gas in the home. There are numerous gas appliances in my house, and any nubmer of fittings which could be loose, or not up to spec. Noone has ever checked them besides an annual service, and the insurance company don't care.

Matt Simis

stephendevlin wrote: »

Wind your neck back in.
You seemed to babble on a bit there but what is it that I am claiming that is so wrong?

Yeah, you can forget that, you arent even remotely trying to actually understand and accept replies, only try to back up your earlier incorrect or misleading claims which will be a never ending he said she said quote vest. This thread is about LPG home supply.

In a nutshell, to those genuinely interested in actual realworld experience and facts (ie everyone else):

- Ask your insurance company directly if you want, given the regulatory restrictions on LPG installs, its not a problem if you do it above board (only option if you want mainstream Calor/Flogas service)
- Cost of inspections are not an additional factor as they are required by regulation and therefore included in the costs quoted for Home LPG bulk tank installs. Its not a hidden extra cost and should it be no more a surprise than the fact Petrol Stations incorporate their own required inspections into the cost of fuel (gasp horror).

stephendevlin

Matt Simis wrote: »

Its not a hidden extra cost.

You can obviously read my previous posts. I never mentioned that it was.

Matt Simis

stephendevlin wrote: »

You can obviously read my previous posts. I never mentioned that it was.

My last reply to you on this matter:

stephendevlin wrote: »

I imagine this would have a disastrous effect on your home insurance and if I am not mistaken those tanks would need to inspected regularly also adding to the cost.

Adding:

The Dictionary, a good read wrote:

to be or serve as an addition (usually followed by to

or to mean an "additional or extra cost" in this scenario.

Try remember what you actually claimed before arguing with people who have real world experience of the topic.

stephendevlin

Matt Simis wrote: »

In a nutshell, to those genuinely interested in actual realworld experience and facts (ie everyone else):

LOL, Listen to yourself. All I said was your insurance would go up (which it would) and that it needs to be inspected, ( and costs) which it does as its included in the price as you say. No need to have a fanny attack

repsol

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well you are wrong but are claiming it as fact is whats nonsense! I dont actually understand why you are even making these claims and fliing mud on something so new and tentative.

Does your insurance go up with an Kero Oil tank planted right outside your kids bedroom wall? Is it checked or inspected even?

The LPG tanks have subject to specific safety orientated installations (ie well away from your house), having multiple signoffs before commissioning (as does a NG/LPG boiler, separately) have safety cuttoffs/release valves, have 24hr support and have to use specific fire safe wiring going to/from them (if using pump or something, normal tank doesnt use power). Even the plastic used for the wiring surrounds have to be UV and penetration safe. Compared to the 25 year old used house purchase with drippy corroded Kero fittings and Z rated, gas leaking old Kero boiler, its a world of safety higher, insurance isnt affected. Besides, home insurance is pittance compared to car insurance or to the point of this thread, microscopic compared to fuel costs for a car. Its a null issue no matter how its sliced.


Inspections are required but they are performed by Calor / Flogas / Whoever as part of the service, its not an additional charge, its part of the existing pricing for tank rental.

As I already said, Calor and Flogas are just a phonecall away, why is there so much random guesswork going on in this thread? You make out like this is all iffy weird new stuff, thousands of people across the country have bulk LPG tanks at home for the last decade or more.

You are overlooking the obvious difference between gas tanks for a heating system and a gas tank for a vehicle.The difference is that the vehicle tank will have to have its gas decanted into the tank of the car which creates an additional hazard and risk of fire.I have an underground tank in my house so I am familiar with their workings.The only way an insurance company is not going to increase a premium for turning your house into in their eyes a mini petrol station is if you don't tell them.

stephendevlin

Matt Simis wrote: »

My last reply to you on this matter:


Adding:

or to mean an "additional or extra cost" in this scenario.

Try remember what you actually claimed before arguing with people who have real world experience of the topic.

I didnt say it was an additional cost though. I said it "adds to the cost" merely implying that you have to pay someone to inspect this type of fuel tank as opposed to others even if its included or extra.

Matt Simis

repsol wrote: »

You are overlooking the obvious difference between gas tanks for a heating system and a gas tank for a vehicle.The difference is that the vehicle tank will have to have its gas decanted into the tank of the car which creates an additional hazard and risk of fire.I have an underground tank in my house so I am familiar with their workings.The only way an insurance company is not going to increase a premium for turning your house into in their eyes a mini petrol station is if you don't tell them.

While I would point out they are the same tanks (no matter the usage, same base tank) and the "decanting" as you put it is fairly idiot proof (decant implies a kind of pouring, open air operation, its not, would be like pump charging an orange Calor tank, which several of my neighbours do all the time) I think we should all stop making speculations and simply ask a couple of Insurers.

I would stand by my claim I dont think it would be "disastrous to insurance premiums" but thats just opinion.

mickdw

How much are people paying per litre for lpg bulk delivered versus service station price?

mullingar

Bulk domestic LPG is aroung 65c/litre inc the vat and carbon tax.

To be fully tax compliant for road use, duty is payable at around 10c litre.

green fuel for europe

repsol wrote: »

You are overlooking the obvious difference between gas tanks for a heating system and a gas tank for a vehicle.The difference is that the vehicle tank will have to have its gas decanted into the tank of the car which creates an additional hazard and risk of fire.I have an underground tank in my house so I am familiar with their workings.The only way an insurance company is not going to increase a premium for turning your house into in their eyes a mini petrol station is if you don't tell them.

You have absolutelly no sense about "risk of fire" for a vehicle equipped with LPG tank.:cool:

Matt Simis

mullingar wrote: »

Bulk domestic LPG is aroung 65c/litre inc the vat and carbon tax.

To be fully tax compliant for road use, duty is payable at around 10c litre.

Its up around 74c Inc vat now though isn't it?

Gosub

Just a question. In theory, could one LPG tank be used for home heating and filling a vehicle, or other tank/cylinder?

galwaytt

Gosub wrote: »

Just a question. In theory, could one LPG tank be used for home heating and filling a vehicle, or other tank/cylinder?

Yes. It's been done.

galwaytt

So you have just validated point 2, that it costs to have this inspected (I didnt say it was an extra!).

Point number 1 was about insurance, care to elaborate as to how my house insurance wont go up as I have a tank of LPG in the garden.

You seemed to babble on a bit there but what is it that I am claiming that is so wrong?

Have you got an LPG tank?

If not, defer to someone who does. Better still, to someone that has 2.

Annual inspection is €110.

Gosub

galwaytt wrote: »

Yes. It's been done.

Officially or otherwise?

repsol

green fuel for europe wrote: »

You have absolutelly no sense about "risk of fire" for a vehicle equipped with LPG tank.:cool:

The issue is not vehicles equipped with LPG,its the filling of the car with LPG which is potentially dangerous.I have 20 years experience as a full time firefighter.What experience do you have?

mullingar

Why must the keyboard warriors do so much scaremongering?

LPG as a fuel is probably the safest non-solid domestic fuel that I know of as there are so many different levels of safety sign off.

Last Autumn, I was inquiring about changing a dinosaur of an oil system to LPG that I use for heating the water during the summer ,as well as a full back-up, to the wood-pellet heating. I rang the house insurance provider, there was ZERO extra premium as long as they received a copy of the safety certificates

repsol

mullingar wrote: »

Why must the keyboard warriors do so much scaremongering?

LPG as a fuel is probably the safest non-solid domestic fuel that I know of as there are so many different levels of safety sign off.

Last Autumn, I was inquiring about changing a dinosaur of an oil system to LPG that I use for heating the water during the summer ,as well as a full back-up, to the wood-pellet heating. I rang the house insurance provider, there was ZERO extra premium as long as they received a copy of the safety certificates

As a household fuel,it is very safe. When you are transferring it,its a whole different ball game.Tanker drivers have to do specific training,work within specific guidelines(line of sight for example)etc

stephendevlin

galwaytt wrote: »

Have you got an LPG tank?

If not, defer to someone who does. Better still, to someone that has 2.

Annual inspection is €110.

I dont need an LPG tank.

Deter what? Who has 2 tanks? You? Is this your way of proclaiming you have 2 tanks? If you know it all then answer this question I have

A: How did will this effect the insurance premium of your home? Its a simple question really I dont get what the big deal everyone is making


I mean I speak about insurance and that it needs to be inspected and that costs ...so what? Some very sensitive people on this thread.

green fuel for europe

repsol wrote: »

The issue is not vehicles equipped with LPG,its the filling of the car with LPG which is potentially dangerous.I have 20 years experience as a full time firefighter.What experience do you have?

10 years as certified autogas installer with 2 different manufacturers certificates, hope it is enough. I have never seen LPG tank fitted in the vehicle catch fire or explode. If you are talking about refueling vehicle, it is same for any type of fuel:petrol, diesel or LPG... :eek: (never seen LPG spillages:cool:)

repsol

green fuel for europe wrote: »

10 years as certified autogas installer with 2 different manufacturers certificates, hope it is enough. I have never seen LPG tank fitted in the vehicle catch fire or explode. If you are talking about refueling vehicle, it is same for any type of fuel:petrol, diesel or LPG... :eek: (never seen LPG spillages:cool:)

I have never personally witnessed a BLEVE but that doesn't mean it cannot happen.I never said LPG was excessively dangerous in a vehicle,the issue is getting the gas from the tank the OP wants to install in his home into his car.It has been stated on here that his insurance will be unaffected when clearly it will.LPG spillages are very serious due to its weight and tendency to flow down drains etc.

Matt Simis

repsol wrote: »

I have never personally witnessed a BLEVE but that doesn't mean it cannot happen.I never said LPG was excessively dangerous in a vehicle,the issue is getting the gas from the tank the OP wants to install in his home into his car.It has been stated on here that his insurance will be unaffected when clearly it will.LPG spillages are very serious due to its weight and tendency to flow down drains etc.

Yeah, this still sounds like theory not reality. Ive never personally seen a petrol lawnmower explode and burn down a garage, but Im sure it happens also (more than LPG issues for sure too).
Have you actually even seen (let alone used) a skid mounted high pressure LPG pump? Its a totally sealed system.
If you go out, take the filler and aim at the air, pull the trigger.. nothing happens. You have to screw it into the tank to fill it. It also cuts off automatically in case of overfill. In the case of excessive back pressure (on the pump side) it also has an overpressure valve. You would have to intentionally mess with the hose to create a "spillage".

If there was such a spillage:
LPG home tanks need to be over 5meters (IRC) from a home, outdoors (obviously), away from drains, away from walls, surrounded by warning placards, owner gets a briefing from two Installation Vetters as well as a safety document. And they come out and check the place from time to time and ensure vegetation etc hasnt grown around the tank.


And please stop saying "clearly insurance goes up". You are not an Insurance Risk assessor, its your opinion it might go up, its not a fact. You might be right, you might not. I would still consider this an entirely pointless tangent. Home insurance is EUR300 - 500 for most people, fuel costs are 10 to 15 times this.

Stinicker

repsol wrote: »

I have never personally witnessed a BLEVE but that doesn't mean it cannot happen.I never said LPG was excessively dangerous in a vehicle,the issue is getting the gas from the tank the OP wants to install in his home into his car.It has been stated on here that his insurance will be unaffected when clearly it will.LPG spillages are very serious due to its weight and tendency to flow down drains etc.

LPG boils at around -40c so should there be a leak in a bulk tank it will have evaporated out into thin air before it ever gets the opportunity to go down drains. It is not like Petrol or Diesel in that it only says liquid when it is in the bulk tank. It is much safer than traditional liquid fuels in this regard, if there was a leak in your car then the gas would vapourise and disperse safely into thin air unless ignited, Petrol would remain under the car or tank waiting for a spark. With Diesel you can throw a lit match into a can of diesel and it will quench due to its higher flash point, try this with Petrol and you'll be lucky if only your eyebrows get singed.

All fuels are dangerous but LPG if handled correctly is even safer than petrol in my opinion. Every pump has a breakaway valve something I have never seen in petrol cars.

repsol

Stinicker wrote: »

LPG boils at around -40c so should there be a leak in a bulk tank it will have evaporated out into thin air before it ever gets the opportunity to go down drains. It is not like Petrol or Diesel in that it only says liquid when it is in the bulk tank. It is much safer than traditional liquid fuels in this regard, if there was a leak in your car then the gas would vapourise and disperse safely into thin air unless ignited, Petrol would remain under the car or tank waiting for a spark. With Diesel you can throw a lit match into a can of diesel and it will quench due to its higher flash point, try this with Petrol and you'll be lucky if only your eyebrows get singed.

All fuels are dangerous but LPG if handled correctly is even safer than petrol in my opinion. Every pump has a breakaway valve something I have never seen in petrol cars.

If handled correctly.Not handled in a domestic dwelling by an untrained person

Eric Cartman

repsol wrote: »

If handled correctly.Not handled in a domestic dwelling by an untrained person

the skid unit is pre-assembled , all the pipework is welded and the tank tested , meter and pump calibrated at the factory , theres not much to mishandle, you wouldnt be filling the tank , the only interaction youd have with the unit would be picking up the nozzle and filling your car, unless you drive a car into it theres very little for any 'untrained' person to mess up.

Stinicker

repsol wrote: »

If handled correctly.Not handled in a domestic dwelling by an untrained person

There is no training required to fill your car at the LPG pump, I was shown how to do it the first time and after that no problem. There is more fail safes at the LPG pump than at any Petrol or Diesel pump, with the dead mans handle and the breakaway valve on the filler hose. All skid units are also protected by crash barriers so it is also unlikely that you'd happen to collide with a tank which is is very robust anyway compared to the flimsy plastic tanks Diesel and Kerosene are stored in.

The amount of people in Ireland that would require a home LPG filling tank is very small anyway, considering how small the LPG market is, so I hardly think we are talking about your average motorist who'd drive off from the petrol pumps without putting back the petrol cap and then release the handbrake 5 miles down the road.

zone131

is there any good installer in Dublin?

Matt Simis

zone131 wrote: »

is there any good installer in Dublin?

Installer for what? For Home LPG tanks the tank is owned by the gas company and must be installed and dropped off by their agent(s). You dont organise or select a tank or installer or commissioning agent aside from using who they refer in your locality.

Did you read the thread at all!?