Build my own wheels.

cdaly_

Gonna try building my first set of wheels. I'm thinking of DT Swiss R520 rims on shimano 105 hubs. Along with DT Swiss spokes it comes in at just over EUR200.

I'm looking at these as touring/audax wheels with no intention of racing or nothing...

Any thoughts?

Flandria

Dura Ace hubs are nicer...

Crow92

cdaly_ wrote: »

Gonna try building my first set of wheels. I'm thinking of DT Swiss R520 rims on shimano 105 hubs. Along with DT Swiss spokes it comes in at just over EUR200.

I'm looking at these as touring/audax wheels with no intention of racing or nothing...

Any thoughts?

As an alternative I built my own wheels for commuting/touring made up using mavic A719 rims 50 quid each i think. Dtswiss alpine iii spokes. 8.50 per 20 from rosebike and shimano xt t780 trekking hubs I also got from rosebike. I think it came to sround 220 or so delivered.
Done just over 2k km commuting across Dublin and they're going strong.

CillianL

I've built wheels myself before so what I'd recommend is

1.Radial Wheels are a lovely build, are light and look great but are unreliable so get used to servicing them and replacing broken spokes every couple of thousand miles.

2. 3 Cross 36 Spoke Wheels last the longest for home builds. They're not glamorous but at the end of the day you want something that lasts.

3. Don't use cheap spokes.
I used Sapim spokes from Cycleways for all of my builds, I was quite happy with them, otherwise DT Swiss are supposed to be very good as well.

4. Make sure you tighten the spokes nipples evenly as you go around the wheel tensioning it
I learnt that the hard way

5. Sheldon Browns articles on wheelbuilding are very good as well check out the bike tube channel on youtube.

6. Front wheels are easier to build than rear wheels because you dont have to worry about the dish of the wheel. As well if you get the wheel laterally true you still have to worry about radial truing which is an absolute tear-jerker.

7. Wheel builds will kick you in the teeth if you don't pay attention

LeftBlank

Is there a database around where you can find what length spokes are needed for hub/rim combinations?

CillianL

LeftBlank wrote: »

Is there a database around where you can find what length spokes are needed for hub/rim combinations?

Sheldon Brown has a small database but its a few years out of date so I wouldn't bother with it.

You're better off getting the correct measuerments for your the parts and use the DT Swiss Spoke Calculator and the Bike Institute calculator to cross check.

You'll learn more that way as well.
If its a 36 spoke 3 cross rear wheel 292mm drive side and 294mm spokes will probably do but theres no use being a lazy fool for something that might not work

cdaly_

Flandria wrote: »

Dura Ace hubs are nicer...

I'm sure they are but I can get 5 sets of 105 hubs for the price of one set of dura ace hubs...

Diarmuid

cdaly_ wrote: »

Gonna try building my first set of wheels. I'm thinking of DT Swiss R520 rims on shimano 105 hubs. Along with DT Swiss spokes it comes in at just over EUR200.

I'm looking at these as touring/audax wheels with no intention of racing or nothing...

How about OpenPro rims, DT Comp spokes and Ultegra Hubs. All the parts come to €260. I think it's worth the €50 increase over your selection. Better hubs, rims ( I guess this is debatable) and spokes

Diarmuid

I reckon the Open Pro's will come in about 1850g, the Mavics at 2150g. If you want to save money use the 105s instead of the Ultegra hubs

smacl

While I know nada about wheel building, if I was building a set of wheels for audax, I'd be sorely tempted to go for a hub dynamo. Only sayin' ....

The Big Lebowsky

I would suggest the DT Swiss TK 540 rims especially for audax/touring duties...TheDT Swiss R520 rims are more suitable for racing/sportif use. Plus the TK 540s would also be a better bet for your first wheelbuild, as they have double ferrules.

On the subject of hubs...firstly does your frame have 130 or 135 rear drop out spacing?

cdaly_

smacl wrote: »

While I know nada about wheel building, if I was building a set of wheels for audax, I'd be sorely tempted to go for a hub dynamo. Only sayin' ....

Indeed. However, that's getting into serious money just for hub, lights, usb charger etc. I can always build another front wheel at some point...

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

I would suggest the DT Swiss TK 540 rims especially for audax/touring duties...TheDT Swiss R520 rims are more suitable for racing/sportif use. Plus the TK 540s would also be a better bet for your first wheelbuild, as they have double ferrules.

The only TK540 rims I'm seeing are 29ers. Is that the same as a 700? How do the double ferrules help with a first time build? Is it just about getting the nipples in properly or am I less likely to damage the rim or some such? I should have no problem placing nipples using Holyboy's own design spare spoke nipple tool...

On the subject of hubs...firstly does your frame have 130 or 135 rear drop out spacing?

I'm assuming 130mm. I'm currently running a mavic aksium on it. Isn't 135mm for 11 speed hubs or some such?

The Big Lebowsky

@cdaly...I gave you my advice regarding rim choice for audax/touring use..
Its your choice entirely if you if you choose to ignore that advice..

If you seek performance then buy the lighter rims...such as mavic open pro or DT Swiss 420 or 520

If you want them to last a couple of years, then for heavens sake buy something more durable..like Dt Swiss Tk-540 or mavic A719 or Rigida sputnick...

Tonyandthewhale

Aksiums are 130mm and the FCR frame (I'm assuming you're still using that) is 130mm framing. 135mm is for mountain bikes but it's also used for hybrids and touring bikes. 12 speed will probably be 135mm when it comes along.

29er rims are the same diameter as 700c rims but they tend to be wider to fit wider tyres AFAIK so you might not be able to fit a 25mm or 28mm road tyre on them for example. Having said that I'm not familiar with the TK540's so I don't know what range of tyres are compatible with them.

doozerie

Building your own wheels is a great idea, in my view, best of luck with it. In terms of your choice of parts, my views are:

* I'd go with Ultegra hubs by preference based on the belief that they might be more durable over time. I've not actually used 105 hubs (well, no in many years) so I'm not talking from recent experience here, only based on what I've read of other peoples' relatively recent experiences. As a general rule though I've found Ultegra parts (rear mech, brake levers) to be more durable than 105 parts.

* I've always used DT Swiss double butted spokes when building wheels. I think they were (mainly) the Competition model, but I bought most of them in a local bike store and they didn't actually say what they were. I've found them good, but I was recently told by a very experienced wheelbuilder that ACI spokes are more robust and tend to survive the likes of crashes better - that makes me interested to try ACI spokes next time, depending on their price. The fact that a DT spoke snapped on me very recently, while adjusting a wheel, certainly contributes to this interest in other options - mind you, the spoke that snapped was on a wheel that appears to have been badly built (not by me, I'm happy to say) but I think it's the first spoke I've snapped while adjusting a wheel.
I've also read very good things about Sapim spokes, though I've never used them myself.

* I've only ever built wheels with Mavic rims, and my experiences have been mixed. I used to see Open Pro rims as a safe, reliable, and quality choice for road wheels, and I've built quite a few wheels with that rim over the years. My impression of them in recent years has diminished, they've not been as reliable as previous ones were (short lifespan mainly, one of them failed spectacularly with little or no perceptible wear on the brake surface). In addition, the same wheelbuilder that told me of his preference for ACI spokes said that he has had problems with Open Pro rims in recent years too - in his case he found that the area of the rim around the join was very difficult to adjust so that there was no "bump" (excuse the technical lingo ) in it without tensioning the spokes either side of the join excessively. Personally, next time I build a wheel I'll be looking at alternatives to the Open Pro, probably Ambrosio Evolution (if I can source them) or maybe DT Swiss.

Other points:
* Get yourself a good spoke key(s). A poor spoke key that doesn't fit the nipple well will drive you mad, one that is not comfortable to hold and use will wreck your fingers and make the whole process a chore. I like the Park Tool one (the black one fits most of the spokes I've used) - beware of the very similar 4-sided version which I've used too and find that it jams too tightly on many spokes so I rarely use it except if I encounter a spoke that refuses to budge as the extra support on the 4th side helps there.

* Determining the lengths of spoke that you'll need is tedious since it's usually difficult to find any info online for your preferred particular combination of rim and hub. The most reliable method is to have the hub and rim in your hands so that you can actually make the necessary measurements yourself, but that obviously means postponing the purchase of the spokes and therefore missing out on the opportunity to minimise shipping charges. On the other hand, some manufacturers do publish the ERD of their rims, which is all you need to measure on the rim, and you might be lucky and find the able to find the relevant info (click on the Help button) online. The info for some Shimano hubs is here.

* I find that putting light oil on the spoke threads helps a lot.

* Some people are fans of putting glue on the spoke threads, I never have and I've never found the need except where I've built the wheel poorly to start with (not enough tension in the spokes will result in spokes that loosen when using the wheel), and the solution there is more attention to the build on my part rather than using glue to overcome my own failings. Basically, glue is entirely a personal choice.

* Not all spoke nipples are the same length, and I'm pretty sure I've seen a particular length recommended for some rims. The default length is 12mm as far as I can remember, but I was working on Mavic CXP33 rims recently and with 12mm nipples the spoke key scored the rim around every nipple - for those particular rims I reckon that 14mm nipples would be better. Longer nipples will mean shorter spokes, so basically remember to factor in the nipple length (if your chosen rim recommends a particular nipple length) when calculating your spoke length.

dubmess

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Plus

http://lenni.info/edd/

have fun!

If the hubs or rims you're using aren't listed in the above site a quick google will generally find erd's and hub dimensions.

seamus

I really enjoyed building my own wheel for the commuter. Very pleased too, I haven't had to true it once in 5000km.

The biggest thing for me was getting calculations correct. A vernier calipers is really handy for checking fine measurements yourself rather than relying on the ones supplied on packaging and websites.

cdaly_

Lovely post doozerie, thanks.

It looks like the extra EUR50 for the ultegra hubs might be worthwhile.

I'm working of Roger Musson's book already so my intended approach looks much like yours.

doozerie

@cdaly, I just discovered this Wheelsmith page for the first time and it has some interesting information that may prove useful if you haven't made a final decision on spokes yet:

ACI Stainless double-butted are excellent spokes - they are 20% Chromium, fit hub holes nicely with a smooth bend & nicely rolled thread. Very few breakages over the years, they seem to bend in crashes too and we use Purple Extreme lube to combat corrosion from winter crud.

For lighter builds we use Sapim Laser and Sapim CX-Ray - the lightest available and very strong under tension - CX-Rays are forged flat versions of the Laser and are only 4.6g each.

Note that Sapim Lasers are not usually suited to use on the rear wheel where a lot of torques come into play - especially if you are heavier. Although they are the same weight as CX-Rays, they do not stand up to these dynamics well and are more suited to front use only. Ideally partnered to ACI spokes on the rear.

We have the new Sapim D-Light spokes which have an advanced butting method which results in a super strong and light spoke. They are much cheaper than CX-Ray, so if you don't require a flat bladed spoke, these are the answer.

There are now Taiwanese manufacturers using the same Sandvik steel and technology as the European spoke makers. One of these is Pillar. For years they have flooded the lower-end "fashion" market for factory-built wheels but now they are offering high-end spokes which rival, and in some cases beat Sapim for weight and strength. Times move on! We will be stocking the PSR X-TRA1420 spoke very soon.

hesker

Here are a few links I have stashed away. I built the truing stand in Roger Mussons' guide. Works fine though I've only trued wheels on it yet.

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

http://www.flickr.com/photos/questionmarke/4190843350/

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/605514-Is-it-really-worth-building-your-own-wheels

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm

doozerie

@hesker, That's a nicely built truing stand. Bit off topic this but as a matter of interest, did you source the phenolic plywood in Ireland or elsewhere? I looked for some a few years ago and couldn't find any here.

Lawr

I got a pair of old 32 hole ultegra hubs, '90s vintage, off of ebay. I then sourced Mavic Open Pro rims and steel spokes from my LBS. I think he was surprised at how well it turned out. Like weaving baskets. If you're a basket-case, you know what I'm talking about. Anyway, they are great. They are on my communter, which is a mishmash of old ultegra and dura ace parts on an old '90s Barracuda aluminum frame with a Time/Colnago carbon fork with a one inch steel steerer. Nice bike. New wheels and cables made all the difference in this old neglected bicycle that was given to me by a friend.

All the advice given so far is good advice. I didn't have any special tools. Used the break calipers as a guide for truing. I dished the wheel by eye-balling the chain line as it left the front derailleur. It's all hunky dory.

Also, the three cross wheels, though heavier are springier too, as the hub gets wrapped up as the spokes get tightened. That tension is an advantage when going up hills or when sprinting.

Good luck.

mp31

doozerie wrote: »

@hesker, That's a nicely built truing stand. Bit off topic this but as a matter of interest, did you source the phenolic plywood in Ireland or elsewhere? I looked for some a few years ago and couldn't find any here.

What he said... and what sort of spoke-tension-measurement-device-thingy did you use to get the correct tension on the spokes?

hesker

mp31 wrote: »

What he said... and what sort of spoke-tension-measurement-device-thingy did you use to get the correct tension on the spokes?

Sorry for late reply. I dip in here fairly irregularly.

You don't need to source phenolic plywood. Any reasonably robust wood or MDF that is 20mm thick is fine. I used 20mm plywood from B&Q. You can get off cuts sometimes at reduced prices. Or go to your local builders providers. They often will let you have empty wooden storage boxes for free that they have stacked for dumping. Check for thickness though. If you're going to follow Roger Musson's guide then best sticking to his measurements and go with the 20mm.

I didn't use a tensionmeter. I have two well built wheels on another bike that have remained true and I used these as reference. I used my hands to gauge tension. This is what Musson has been using for years and worked fine for him building wheels to professional standards. I highly recommend his book. You can get it as an e-book pdf for Stg£9. You can probably rip him off and get it for nothing somewhere on the web but the guy has put a lot of work and excellent knowledge into it and doesn't deserve that. It's cheap at £9.

doozerie

Since my last post in this thread I've gone searching for ACI spokes and Ambrosio rims online. I found both for sale from www.sdeals.com (in the UK) and their prices seemed quite reasonable, for spokes in particular, compared to other online prices I came across. They sell Sapim, DT Swiss, and Pillar spokes too. I bought a whole bunch of spokes from them several weeks back and found them excellent to deal with. Their shipping prices are based on weight though, so they build up when buying the likes of spokes in volume, but they give a table of shipping prices on the site so you know in advance what to expect (I get fed up with sites which don't make shipping costs clear from the start). I'd recommend them.

On one of the mails from Steve Howells, one of the owners of sdeals.com, he signed himself off as "16 times Rás rider". Respect! It seems to be a small, straight-talking, family business and and I'll happily shop with them again.

cdaly_

Alas I haven't taken this any further yet. I'm waiting for the credit card to recharge. Looks like the charger's on the blink though, it's taking forever...

Lawr

CillianL wrote: »

Sheldon Brown has a small database but its a few years out of date so I wouldn't bother with it.

You're better off getting the correct measuerments for your the parts and use the DT Swiss Spoke Calculator and the Bike Institute calculator to cross check.

You'll learn more that way as well.
If its a 36 spoke 3 cross rear wheel 292mm drive side and 294mm spokes will probably do but theres no use being a lazy fool for something that might not work

This, of course, depends on the circumference of the hub flanges,

The Big Lebowsky

How about building yourself a bombproof set of training wheels like these?

Velocity A23 rims- From just riding along in the UK
Hope Pro 3 32h hubs-From Bike 24.com in Germany

Spokes are 296mm for the front wheel..
290mm Rear drive side..294mm Rear non drive side...Built 3 cross..Simples:D

G rock

cdaly: I got ambrosio zenith hubs built into open pro rims when I was getting my new bike. Harry rowland (wheel builder of good reputation in the uk) seems to think highly of them, and builds wheels similar in spec.

Got the hubs from spa cycles, pretty inexpensive, and they built up really nicely.

Maybe an alternative to the ultegra hubs of you fancy checking them out

G rock

Not built by me I should add!

Ryath

Am been considering hand builts from wheelsmith.co.uk but this thread has got me thinking about pricing for parts. Don't think I'd trust myself nor have to the time or patience to build them myself but if I remember correctly Holyboy in beecycles builds them for €30 a wheel.

Bike24 seem very well priced for rims and spokes not as much choice on hubs though only shimano in my budget which are heavy and I would prefer sealed bearings. Their Chris kings, Dt swiss and hopes are out of my budget.
Have found a set Novatec superlights 28/32 hubs for €77.50 delivered.

So for example from bike24 2 Ambrossio F20 Crono Tubular rims and 60 Dt Swiss Super comp spokes total price delivered €161. So for a total cost built of just under €300 for the wheel set. Wheelsmith costs €395 for the same rims built built on slightly cheaper and heavier ambrosio hubs and aci spokes. I get a total claimed weight for the build of 1357g the rims are probably slightly heavier than claimed but the build should still be close to 1400g

For the same price I could get the ambrosio excelelight rims that come in at a claimed weight for the build of 1477g. Wheelsmith is €370 for these on the ambrosio hubs and aci spokes.

Third rim on bike24 that stands out as an option are Dt Swiss 415 rims that cost €10 more so €310 with a claimed weight of 1447g

What am I missing here the prices I'm coming up with seem to good to be true?

At the price and weight savings I would give serious consideration to getting the F20 Crono tubulars for racing and they look the best with the anodised rim. Dt swiss are still pretty light and look good though I would imagine the excelights are a bit more durable at just 30g heavier.