The Big Bang. Really?

parc

Ok first off I have to say that I'm an atheist.

The idea that there is a being up there watching us, the fact that Jesus performed miracles, came back to life etc is absurd to me. In fact, it blows my mind that people nowadays believe in a bunch of fairy stories that were written up to 2000 years ago. Truly baffling

However, I'm just after watching a programme about the universe and you know what else I think is hard to belive. The Big Bang theory (and I'm not talking about the TV show ). Now feel free to educate me if I get this wrong (I would really like that) but in terms of the big bang theory; do you really believe that:

-All matter in the universe was compressed to a tiny tiny tiny point , then suddenly exploded.
-It started expanding...into nothing. Yep, nothing. What was there before it? Nothing. It's expanding into...nothing? What's at the end of the universe...nothing...? What existed before it? Nothing... Right...

I had this conversation before with someone and they were saying that time only began when the universe exploded etc and in the past I've just believed the big bang theory etc.

You hear scientist argue with creationists (who I think are mental btw) about the universe being created with the big bang, but to me, the more I think about it, the BB theory sounds almost as mental.

Once again, if someone can enlighten me on this then that will be gladly welcome

Dunny

In before Sheldon

Wibbs

Well its hard to imagine "nothing" for a start, especially an absence of even time.

LivelineDipso

the Big Bang is a dying idea - most modern cosmologists have dismissed it.

It was created as a Genesis for atheists, in the same way Global Warming was created as their Revelation. In the same way Darwinism is their Hindu caste system.

The archetypes never go away.

Anyways, it always was a nutty idea. I think it was Terrance McKenna who called it something like the one miracle atheists allow themselves.

Czarcasm

It's not so mad when you think about it OP. A fart is compressed into nothing, then you have a big bang and gases are released, expanding into nothing...

Biggins

I had high hopes when I seen the thread title - only to be let down!

parc

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's not so mad when you think about it OP. A fart is compressed into nothing, then you have a big bang and gases are released, expanding into nothing...

But it's not expanding into nothing and it doesn't come from nothing

TheBody

Jim Corr is the man you need to talk to.

Bipolar Joe

As far as "Expanding into nothing" goes, the way I think of it is (And I'm not an expert, just someone who thinks about this crap a lot and reads what I can, so correct me if I fuck this up), imagine a balloon with no air in it. That's the Universe before it explodes, right? You blow air into it, it expands. Too big, it explodes (Or something).

Also, I think the term "Nothing" doesn't exactly mean nothing, I imagine Nothing is a name for a thing, which I guess is an oxymoron. What that thing is is maybe more space, outside our own balloon.

At any rate, TBB is only a possibility. It's science, no one knows how this crap works. I do think that uneducated people flapping their faces about it like they have ten PhDs in different branches of physics just makes them look stupid, and I definitely think that a lot of them seem just as overzealous as creationists. Both can be as bad as each other in different ways. "I know creationism is real because it's in the Bible!" "Yeah? Well, I know the big bang is real because that dude over there wrote a book about it that I kind of skimmed over!"

Micky Dolenz

mod

Please don't turn this into a God v no God thread.

The Jammy dodger

Ready for the big shocker? it was created by an astronomer for the Vatican and a Catholic priest. He admits it was just a theory though and not to be taken as fact nor as atheistic, so all you so-called experts on the subject who hate the Catholic church can go back to playing your PS3 and pulling leftover crackers because ya havnt a clue what yer talkin aboot

barney 20v

What do you think/believe happened then op...? I'm curious to know.

Bipolar Joe

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

Ready for the big shocker? it was created by an astronomer for the Vatican and a Catholic priest. He admits it was just a theory though and not to be taken as fact nor as atheistic, so all you so-called experts on the subject who hate the Catholic church can go back to playing your PS3 and pulling leftover crackers because ya havnt a clue what yer talkin aboot

I always wondered why it was called The Big Bang Theory. I just thought it was so the acronym would be a palindrome, and everyone loves palindromes. It's a good job we have you here to put us right! I could have looked right a right moron.

parc

I think evolution is a very believable theory. However sometimes you hear some atheists/athiest comedians (remember I am an athiest) saying "duh dumb creationists, earth created 6000 years ago? big bang theory...science....yeah"

keith16

I have often thought about this too OP, it does sound daft.

"So if god didn't create the Universe, how was it created?"

"Well, you see, there was a big bang"

Sounds almost patronising!

parc

barney 20v wrote: »

What do you think/believe happened then op...? I'm curious to know.

maybe there was a massive ball of matter that exploded and spread outwards

But in terms of all matter being compressed to an area smaller than pinhead (as I've heard before), and then exploding into "nothing" I find that hard to believe

Kxiii

Our whole universe was in a hot dense state,
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started. Wait...
The Earth began to cool,
The autotrophs began to drool,
Neanderthals developed tools,
We built a wall (we built the pyramids),
Math, science, history, unravelling the mysteries,
That all started with the big bang!

Bang!

barney 20v

parc wrote: »

maybe there was a massive ball of matter that exploded and spread outwards

But in terms of all matter being compressed to an area smaller than pinhead (as I've heard before), and then exploding into "nothing" I find that hard to believe

.

But a massive ball of matter spreading out into "nothing" is easy to believe ? The real issue is what/where is this "nothing" ...

Mardy Bum

parc wrote: »

maybe there was a massive ball of matter that exploded and spread outwards

But in terms of all matter being compressed to an area smaller than pinhead (as I've heard before), and then exploding into "nothing" I find that hard to believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL9S3csJGwI

Watch that see what you think. Its Stephen Hawkings take on it and should help your difficulties in understanding.

Then read A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

Wabbit Ears

The universe has always existed, will always exist and is infinite. It just moves around a lot and changes state.

The idea that its expanding, contracting or had a beginning or will have an end is just silly.

So to answer the great question, how did the universe begin? the answer is, it didnt.

ArtyM

TheBody wrote: »

Jim Corr is the man you need to talk to.

That sentence will never, ever, be true!

The Jammy dodger

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

The universe has always existed, will always exist and is infinite. It just moves around a lot and changes state.

The idea that its expanding, contracting or had a beginning or will have an end is just silly.

So to answer the great question, how did the universe begin? the answer is, it didnt.

Oh so you were THERE? HAHAHAHAHA. Some muppets on this forum

Mardy Bum

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

The universe has always existed, will always exist and is infinite. It just moves around a lot and changes state.

The idea that its expanding, contracting or had a beginning or will have an end is just silly.

So to answer the great question, how did the universe begin? the answer is, it didnt.

Yes it did begin. Its called the big bang. Any scientist worth their salt will tell you that.

Also the universe is expanding.

parc

barney 20v wrote: »

.

But a massive ball of matter spreading out into "nothing" is easy to believe ? The real issue is what/where is this "nothing" ...

No not expanding into "nothing". It expands into something.

Like if I get a balloon and blow it up to the max. Then lets say you're on a tiny spaceship inside that traveling towards the edge. Outside that edge is my room. Keep travelling an you'll reach the window...outside there's my garden, past that there's more and more and more basically

More believable than a pinhead sized bit of compressed exploding outwards into "nothing"

LivelineDipso

TheBody wrote: »

Jim Corr is the man you need to talk to.

TRANSLATION: "I can't look smug and condesending on this thread, so like a typical Dawkins Monkey when confronted with something I haven't been coached to repeat as an expression of my brilliant rational mind, I'll make a snide comment to distract from my ignorance instead."


Well, at least you refrained from the usual "people once said the earth was flat..." opt out clause.

frozenfrozen

BANG

Intensive Care Bear

Maybe the start of our known universe came about as byproduct of the demise of a previous unknown universe.

barney 20v

parc wrote: »

No not expanding into "nothing". It expands into something.

Like if I get a balloon and blow it up to the max. Then lets say you're on a tiny spaceship inside that traveling towards the edge. Outside that edge is my room. Keep travelling an you'll reach the window...outside there's my garden, past that there's more and more and more basically

More believable than a pinhead sized bit of compressed exploding outwards into "nothing"

I also think we as a race haven't a notion as to the true beginning of all this... I understand where your coming from op , but you have no more or less of an idea than most on this rock.
I always wondered what atheists think about this issue.

My name is URL

I doubt we'll ever fully know how things came to be. Feck it though.. it's the not knowing that keeps us progressing.

Knifey Spoony

From what little I know on the subject, the Universe is expanding. We know this by observing the red shifts of galaxies which indicates that they are moving away from us. So, if everything is moving away from each other, it must be a logical conclusion that at some point everything in the Universe was closer together. Whether that means it was condensed to a single point and there was a huge explosion that caused this expansion I think we'll never know. But, you have to remember that the Big Band Theory is just that, a theory. There is no solid proof that it did or did not happen.

Pherekydes

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

Oh so you were THERE? HAHAHAHAHA. Some muppets on this forum

My guess is that this thread will end with a ban(g).

sea_monkey

The view that the big bang was a tiny spherical point and that matter is filling up nothing is a misconception that a lot of people have.

This link puts it into easy to understand terms IMO.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=71

Knifey Spoony

1210m5g wrote: »

Maybe the start of our known universe came about as byproduct of the demise of a previous unknown universe.

Actually, I was reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos recently and he mentioned that there is a theory that is there is enough matter in the Universe then there will come a point when the force of gravity will be stronger than the force that is causing the expansion and the Universe will start contracting.

This might mean that everything might again contract to a single point and the Big Bang may happen again. So, there may be an cycle of expansions and contractions, with everything that existed in the previous cycle being destroyed before being expanding again creating a new Universe.

So, there would be no way of telling if this is true (just a theory) and if it's true, there would be no way of calculating how many cycles the Universe would have went through, what started it, what was there before the cycle started and will it end.

This stuff is really head wrecking.

Truncheon Rouge

What is nothing?
Can it exist without something?

Can you perceive the color black in a universe of only black.
How can something-ness exist without nothingness.

like when you lose at tetris. no square can exist cause theres no space for it to exist within.

sea_monkey

Knifey Spoony wrote: »

Actually, I was reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos recently and he mentioned that there is a theory that is there is enough matter in the Universe then there will come a point when the force of gravity will be stronger than the force that is causing the expansion and the Universe will start contracting.

This might mean that everything might again contract to a single point and the Big Bang may happen again. So, there may be an cycle of expansions and contractions, with everything that existed in the previous cycle being destroyed before being expanding again creating a new Universe.

So, there would be no way of telling if this is true (just a theory) and if it's true, there would be no way of calculating how many cycles the Universe would have went through, what started it, what was there before the cycle started and will it end.

This stuff is really head wrecking.

It is extremly head wrecking because as a species humans have a need to understand things.
The easy way to calm our minds and put a cause for the unknown is of course a diety. This leads curious humans to try and understand the diety and when they can't well it's either athiesm or a new diety.

New dieties in our society are very rare which is why athiesm is on the rise.
Although this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum seems like a good way to explain away our frustrations :P

Lelantos

LivelineDipso wrote: »

the Big Bang is a dying idea - most modern cosmologists have dismissed it..

Creationists have dismissed it. Look to the works of the late & great Carl Sagan for more ideas

im invisible

BAZINGA Punk!

Mardy Bum

Knifey Spoony wrote: »

But, you have to remember that the Big Band Theory is just that, a theory. There is no solid proof that it did or did not happen.

A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon.

When used in non-scientific context, the word “theory” implies that something is unproven or speculative. As used in science, however, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena

.

Make sure you know what theory means. There is a world of difference.

Voltex

I suppose the question the OP is asking is how did the universe just appear out of nothing?
As most people on this i can only explain my understanding of some of the ideas that iv come across over the years. the most important thing Iv come to understand with regard to the origins of the universe and in particular quantum physics, is that we humans are totally prejudiced in terms of what we understand as intuitive and logical. For example Newtons laws of motion will accuratly explain how an object will move and act within a given system if a force is acted upon it. But when it comes to quantum mechanics we have to accept certain principles that go against this natural logic and classical mechanics/physics.

M-theory can possibly show to some extent how a universe such as ours could have just "popped" into extistance. Really interesting, if not mind bending , stuff.

Where To

For all we know, our universe might just be an quark in another universe, and that universe might just be an quark in another, and so on.

carlmango11

Knifey Spoony wrote: »

But, you have to remember that the Big Band Theory is just that, a theory. There is no solid proof that it did or did not happen.

Yeah just like the theory of gravity, number theory, molecular theory, atomic theory, theory of relativity, quantum field theory.

The scientific definition of theory is very different to the everyday definition we use.

stonetrower

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

mod

Please don't turn this into a God v no God thread.

God No!

Knifey Spoony

Mardy Bum wrote: »

.

Make sure you know what theory means. There is a world of difference.

Fair enough. I did mean the more everyday definition, which could apply to the case of the Big Bang, can't really prove it or disprove it (yet). But, I should have been more specific with my word choice.

Stark

Ah now, the early episodes were good...

Intensive Care Bear

Knifey Spoony wrote: »

Actually, I was reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos recently and he mentioned that there is a theory that is there is enough matter in the Universe then there will come a point when the force of gravity will be stronger than the force that is causing the expansion and the Universe will start contracting.

This might mean that everything might again contract to a single point and the Big Bang may happen again. So, there may be an cycle of expansions and contractions, with everything that existed in the previous cycle being destroyed before being expanding again creating a new Universe.

So, there would be no way of telling if this is true (just a theory) and if it's true, there would be no way of calculating how many cycles the Universe would have went through, what started it, what was there before the cycle started and will it end.

This stuff is really head wrecking.

Bastard stole my theory :mad:

im invisible

Where To wrote: »

For all we know, our universe might just be an quark in another universe, and that universe might just be an quark in another, and so on.

Mardy Bum

Knifey Spoony wrote: »

Fair enough. I did mean the more everyday definition, which could apply to the case of the Big Bang, can't really prove it or disprove it (yet). But, I should have been more specific with my word choice.

No it doesn't though. Its a scientific theory. What is up for debate is what happened before the big bang which is currently being explored in cosmology departments all across the world.

Shane-KornSpace

I was watchin a show on the theory before and it is predicted that all of the black holes will eventually merge and consume the remaining universe.

Heres what Ive been thinking..

There are such things called White Holes.
What if a white hole is the end of a black hole?
What if a very long time ago a black hole ate a universe and its joining white hole spat it out? What if it spat everything out in a massive explosion and sent atoms and what not flying off into space.

Is it a continuing loop?

shedweller

It's not so mad an idea when you consider that nearly all of an atom is total vacumn. The bits that arent are protons neutrons etc. they are, i think, made the same way, ie: bits orbiting. So most of a proton etc. is vacumn. I havent a clue how far it goes but so far, it can be said that nearly all matter is complete and total vacumn. I'm surprised we can bump into one another! It's a cool subject though. I wish i had more brains to study it more!

Pherekydes

Shane-KornSpace wrote: »

I was watchin a show on the theory before and it is predicted that all of the black holes will eventually merge and consume the remaining universe.

Heres what Ive been thinking..

There are such things called White Holes.
What if a white hole is the end of a black hole?
What if a very long time ago a black hole ate a universe and its joining white hole spat it out? What if it spat everything out in a massive explosion and sent atoms and what not flying off into space.

Is it a continuing loop?

There's probably a universe somewhere where white holes are not allowed mix with black holes.

Kxiii

shedweller wrote: »

It's not so mad an idea when you consider that nearly all of an atom is total vacumn. The bits that arent are protons neutrons etc. they are, i think, made the same way, ie: bits orbiting. So most of a proton etc. is vacumn. I havent a clue how far it goes but so far, it can be said that nearly all matter is complete and total vacumn. I'm surprised we can bump into one another! It's a cool subject though. I wish i had more brains to study it more!

I remember a few years ago reading that if you could take all of the space out of the atoms in your body you could fit the entire population of the planet into a space about the size of a sugar cube.

This is what happens to matter on a neutron star.