21 yr old with a 13 year old

LegacyUser

To cut a long story short, I have a Brazilian gf and we live together.

One of her friends, a 21yr old guy, is in a relationship with a 13 yr old girl who is still in primary school.

They are visiting our house today. My gf and I had an argument about it; I think it is disgusting and the guy is taking advantage of the 13 yr old.

She says that it is not uncommon in Brazil but I think that line of argument makes no difference.

Two things here:

1) Am I reasonable in thinking this relationship is completely inappropriate?
2) Am I being unreasonable in thinking my GF should not be so accepting of the relationship?

ABajaninCork

1. It might be the norm in Brazil, but here it is totally inappropriate.

2. Tell your GF if her mate turns up to the house with the girl, you'll be calling the Gards to take the girl home to her parents (Who I doubt know what's going on).

3. You might also like to tell your GF her mate is liable to be arrested if he has sex with the minor.

LegacyUser

ABajaninCork wrote: »

1. It might be the norm in Brazil, but here it is totally inappropriate.

2. Tell your GF if her mate turns up to the house with the girl, you'll be calling the Gards to take the girl home to her parents (Who I doubt know what's going on).

3. You might also like to tell your GF her mate is liable to be arrested if he has sex with the minor.

Thanks for the reply.

On point number 2, can the guards actually do anything if they are just in a relationship and if they say they have not had sex?

I think the girl's mother knows, but the mother is an alcoholic and doesn't care about the girl at all.

This is actually quite stressful because this girl is too young to make a mature decision about her choice of partner. She's in 6th class

Meauldsegosha

It may be acceptable in Brazil but all those involved are in Ireland and it is not acceptable here and completely inappropriate. Also if he is having sex with the girl it's illegal.

If it was me I would tell my girlfriend that they are not welcome in your house and if she invites them that you will call the police.

Vicxas

Theres so many legal issues here. My god....

First of all id distance yourself from that as much as possible and let your GF know that you're very uncomfortable with this.

Lisha

Totally agree with other 2 posters it is completely wrong and I would not be happy entertaining this in my house
The 21yr old is wrong just wrong
Here it is defiantly a matter for her parents and guards too

Big Bag of Chips

Of course it is inappropriate, but if they are not having sex, then they are not donig anything illegal.. as far as I'm aware.

Do you know the girl? Do you know her mother? How do you know she's an alcoholic, and doesn't care about her daugther? If that's the case then you should be ringing someone to get social workers involved in this child's case.

Regardless of being in a physcial relationship with this girl or not, the age gap is too wide for this to be appropriate for this child. Things people in their early 20s are doing are too far removed from things children in their early teens should be doing.

Maybe give Barnardos a ring and get advice from them. This child needs somebody to look out for her.

WumBuster

Lets not beat around the bush your girlfriends friend is a pedophile. Why else would he be seeing a 13 year old girl? I and most other normal guys never felt attracted to a 13 year old and starting dating one. What makes him different.. For the sake of the child you need to make a stand, otherwise you, and your girlfriend will be looked back on as pedophile enablers. yes thats right. And drop any notion of oh they're not sleeping together or its common practice in Brazil, how do you know any of that. Report him to the guards. Do it.

LegacyUser

WumBuster wrote: »

Lets not beat around the bush your girlfriends friend is a pedophile. Why else would he be seeing a 13 year old girl? I and most other normal guys never felt attracted to a 13 year old and starting dating one. What makes him different.. For the sake of the child you need to make a stand, otherwise you, and your girlfriend will be looked back on as pedophile enablers. yes thats right. And drop any notion of oh they're not sleeping together or its common practice in Brazil, how do you know any of that. Report him to the guards. Do it.

I have to say this is similar to my initial reaction and my GF's response made me doubt myself, hence coming here to ask for other views.

LegacyUser

Another thing; is there an actual crime being committed here?

If not, I think I would probably be better off ringing social services rather than the guards?

Or should I call the guards and let them follow up with social services?

The Big Red Button

Rather than going to the guards, I think perhaps it may make more sense to approach the girl's school first? They'll be familiar with the girl's background, and may be in the best position to judge whether to approach her parents, and/or who else to contact in social services/the Gardaí.

Also, if I were in your position, I would absolutely rule out having them visit your house. Ever. Even if your girlfriend has no problem with their relationship, she should respect the fact that you do, and she should respect that you have the right not to let anyone into your house if you're uncomfortable with them being there, for whatever reasons.

You also need to consider how it would look if you ever found yourself in a position where two men your age are found in your house with an underage girl. Your friend is the one in a 'relationship' with her, but it really wouldn't look great for you, that you allowed it to happen in your home. (Obviously, the child is the priority here as she's the vulnerable person at risk, but you do have to consider yourself, too.)

It's certainly odd and inappropriate in terms of what's socially acceptable in Ireland.

Worst case scenario if you report it: your girlfriend thinks you're out of order and breaks up with you. Her friend's reputation gets damaged (socially, going out with a 13 year old will damage his reputation anyway) and he could possibly come into trouble in the future if being vetted to work with children.
Worst case scenario if you don't report it: a young girl gets abused, or possibly enters into a relationship where she is abused at length and you spend the rest of your life wondering about whether or not you should have done something.

ABajaninCork

chatterpillar wrote: »

Rather than going to the guards, I think perhaps it may make more sense to approach the girl's school first? They'll be familiar with the girl's background, and may be in the best position to judge whether to approach her parents, and/or who else to contact in social services/the Gardaí.

As it is now the holidays, it makes no sense to me to approach the school. For a start, does the OP even know which school the girl goes to?

No - I think the best bet is to call the Gards if the friend turns up with the girl. They are the best people to deal in the short term. It might scare matey into giving up the 'relationship', especially if it's pointed out to him that he'll be arrested & deported if this carries on. For the record, although the relationship may be platonic, I have serious doubts this is in fact the case. Either way, you're not going to know OP, as the girl will never tell you, so you have to assume the worst, I'm afraid...

And yes, I agree. Make it VERY plain to your GF that under no circumstances is matey to be allowed in your home. That's non-negotiable.

WumBuster

OPHERE wrote: »

I have to say this is similar to my initial reaction and my GF's response made me doubt myself, hence coming here to ask for other views.

Based on the facts you've given, your initial reaction is totally correct. Your gf obviously dosent want to see it as the guy is her friend and has probably justified it to her in some way or another. Its up to you now. Personally, I feel very strongly about something like this and I wouldnt care if it put my own relationship or whatever in jeoprody by reporting it. Which is what you need to do. You are involved now whether you like it or not. Good luck.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

This man is a paedophile pure and simple. I would be making it clear he is not welcome in my home under any circumstances.

Any concerns you have about your own relationship etc fade in comparison to this child's welfare. Ring the Guards and get their advice or contact social services. This child is in 6th class and is in a vulnerable position given her mother's situation. Your girlfriend's response has been totally inadequate. Time for someone to do the right thing here.

LegacyUser

I know the school she attends but I don't think there is much point going there. They will only pass on the info to social services and I can do that myself.

To clarify; all that happened today was that they called around for ten mins to pick up a DVD. I didn't speak to them and I ignored the guy when my GF introduced me to him. I couldn't bring myself to speak to him. Afterwards, my GF chastised me for being rude to him. Seriously...

Apparently the relationship is not sexual but then I have no way of knowing that. Nothing at all happened in the house and I would have kicked him straight out of the house if I witnessed anything.

The weird thing is, this relationship doesn't seem to be a secret among the Brazilian community in the area I live. It's not hidden and as far as I know, no one has objected so far.

I think every Irish person I know would be freaked out by this but the Brazilians don't seem bothered.

I'm almost certain the mother of the girl knows btw, because he picks her up at her house when they go places.

CaraMay

Don't let them over your threshold. What in the name of god is wrong with your gf that she thinks this is ok???

What he is doing is seriously wrong and you do need to act. Contact the child protection officer in your area via the guards. This is child abuse pure and simple.

CarMe

Oh my god please do not enable this man to abuse this child!!
When I was 13 there was this creepy guy in his twenties that used to text me and ask me out and offer to buy me stuff despite knowing my age, this made me sick at the time and luckily I never took him up on the seedy offers of "relationships" but what's weird is I never saw him as a paedofile, just an oddball but earlier on this year there was a story in the paper about him sexually abusing a young girl.

Please do something, and I think a serious chat with your girlfriend is in order!

Fluorescence

I don't think there's any harm of letting the Gardaí know about the situation (they can then decide whether it's in their jurisdiction to act on it), and then give social services a ring. That poor girl.

If it puts your own relationship at risk, so be it. Do you really want to be involved with someone who thinks a 21yo with a 13yo in 6th class is acceptable?

Dave!

If the relationship is not sexual now, then it surely will be. It could probably be described as "grooming". Get onto some authority about it.

sambuka41

Definetly get on to the Gardai, this guy may not be engaging in a sexual relationship with this girl but it is unlikely to stay that way, either he will or his 'friends' might be interested and he'll convince her. Unfortunately it's not uncommon that this happens.

The Duty Social Worker in the girls area should be notified asap, either you or the Gardai might do this. This girl is obviously not being monitored by her family and someone needs to assess the situation. Even if this relationship is innocent* it's likely that she is experiencing other forms of neglect at home.



* I doubt highly that it is innocent

Terri26

Even if it is innocent it's a 21 year old (the age a lot of ppl have a degree at so finished college) and this girl isn't even in secondary school. It is wrong wrong wrong and to be honest I think you need to question what type of person you girlfriend is if she thinks this is okay.
am very creeped out by this and very much so by your girlfriend's nonchalant attitude toward it

Smidge

OP you said that the excuse for this is that it is fairly normal within the Brazilian community.
Is the 13 year old child Irish or Brazilian?

TBH I think I can answer this myself.
The above was just a cop out by someone taking advantage of a child whom they know has no home support( you say mother is an alcoholic).

This guy is a deviant no matter what part of the world he comes from and what excuse he makes.

Contact the Gardai duty social worker before something happens that cannot be undone.

The Big Red Button

Terri26 wrote: »

Even if it is innocent it's a 21 year old (the age a lot of ppl have a degree at so finished college) and this girl isn't even in secondary school. It is wrong wrong wrong and to be honest I think you need to question what type of person you girlfriend is if she thinks this is okay.

See, this is very very important.

In Brazil, it might be considered OK for two people to be in a relationship at those ages. I still think it's very wrong, for numerous reasons, but anyways. Maybe kids are forced to grow up very quickly over there - but it's not right.

In Ireland, a 13-year-old in sixth class is at a completely different stage in her life than any 21 year old. No matter what nationality she/he is or what community she/he is from, she's a child. He's an adult.

This little girl is going to be going back into school on the 2nd of January, to make crap with papier mache, and sing nice songs, and worry about what mark out of ten she'll get in her spelling on Friday. She'll be going into the playground at lunchtime to discuss with friends what they got for Christmas. Chances are, she was involved in a primary school play in the past week or so. She's probably nervous about whatever secondary school she'll be attending.

The point is, how in the f*ck would any grown man want to be in a relationship with a child who is at that stage in her life. It's just plain wrong.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

You need to have a serious word with your girlfriend as well OP. She's having a go at you because you're being rude to the paedophile she invited into your home. Really like?

Id be more inclined to give out to you for being so passive about it tbh.

LegacyUser

You must report this to the police. It is peadophilia straight up.

Even if they are not having intercourse, which they may well be, any kind of sexual contact, oral, manual, whatever, is illegal, and falls under sexual assault with a minor.


Grooming acts such as showing sexual explicit material to a minor, like pornography, etc is also illegal, but very hard to prove.

It is a complex area because the young girl involved may well protect her abuser, this is not uncommon, and deny it if she is questioned. And then you will be classified as one of those hysterics who make false accusations.

What I would do in your shoes is make an appointment with someone in the guards who specialises in this area and meet with him/her to see what you should do.

Sir Oxman

As the overwhelming view says OP, do not let this guy in your home again and work out which is the best course of action to take to ensure the child is not at risk of abuse (from her mother and this guy)

Does your gf not even realise that this is totally unacceptable in Ireland?

coolbeans

Get your girlfriend to think again while you're at it. This just isn't on and neither is her tacit support of it. If you can't bring her around to your way of thinking I would be thinking twice about her. This isn't complex stuff.

GRMA

I would have actually beaten the guy up. Seriously.


What a creep, this is Jimmy Saville, pedo type stuff.

What the fcuk is wrong with your gf that she can hold such disgusting views? She honestly thinks it's ok? Tell her to cop herself on.

Contact the gards.

Contact the school.

Contact the social services.

Do it verbally and via post.

Do it now.

If you do nothing you are party to child abuse and are like those scumbags who knew about Jimmy Saville, or the pedophile priests, and did nothing

Do you want to be like that?

LegacyUser

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Does your gf not even realise that this is totally unacceptable in Ireland?

Nope, we just had a blazing row about it when I said I was going to report it to social services

a posse ad esse

I will admit that it is common practise in Brasil. I don't care if they are Brasilian because they are not in their country they are in Ireland and it is illegal there and most countries in the world.

Call the guards and make a complaint. There is no time to go to schools, talk about it with your girlfriend or others. This man can be one of two things. One he can be socially immature and not mean harm or he can be a sick pervert. But we are not the experts and we cannot second guess things. The guards are well trained in this matter so let them handle it. Make an anonymous complaint but keep in mind it may backfire with your gf. To be honest, if she gets upset with you I don't think you are really meant for each other. I certainly would not be with someone who thinks this is ok and acceptable because it goes against my principles.

GRMA

His relationship with his gf means feck all here, the issue is that there is a child being abused or at the very least at extreme risk of being abused

CaraMay

GRMA wrote: »

His relationship with his gf means feck all here, the issue is that there is a child being abused or at the very least at extreme risk of being abused

I absolutely could not go out with someone who thinks this is acceptable. For gods sake, the child is only making her CONFIRMATION next year.

Yes it's illegal not to report it.

osheen

Was a law not passed in recent years making it an offence not to report situations like this ?
Speak to the gardai asap

neemish

This is a Child Protection issue and as such you are actually required to report it. There are two ways in which to do this
1. Through the child protection service in the HSE. You can find the number of your local service in the phone book. Look for the number of the duty social worker.
2. During out of hours (or a time of the year like this) contact the Gardai. You also go this route if you think the child is in immediate danger.


Imagine for a second that this was your child/niece. What would you want someone else you do? I think you know what has to be done. Make the call, dont wait until something happens. Make it now

slarkin123

I don't think i would be waiting for them to drop by before i called the police. I would have done it the minute i found out about it. Even if you didn't know all their details like names and addresses. Im sure your girlfriend would eventually help the police.

As others have said, it may be an acceptable relationship in Brazil, but they're in Ireland and things are different here. It doesn't mean they can break laws that don't suit them.

I have a daughter in 5th class and was sick to my stomach reading the the first post. Are you sure the mother knows about it cause i find it very hard to believe that any mother would allow this.

deisemum

That paedophile needs to be reported to the Gardai asap. That poor girl is in dangerous position both from that paedo and at home.

Social Services will probably take more heed if the Gardai report it to them anyway.

Sir Oxman

ophere wrote: »

Nope, we just had a blazing row about it when I said I was going to report it to social services

Sorry for your domestic trouble OP, but she's way out of line on this.:(

a posse ad esse

slarkin123 wrote: »

I don't think i would be waiting for them to drop by before i called the police. I would have done it the minute i found out about it. Even if you didn't know all their details like names and addresses. Im sure your girlfriend would eventually help the police.

As others have said, it may be an acceptable relationship in Brazil, but they're in Ireland and things are different here. It doesn't mean they can break laws that don't suit them.

I have a daughter in 5th class and was sick to my stomach reading the the first post. Are you sure the mother knows about it cause i find it very hard to believe that any mother would allow this.

You will be surprised how many mothers in certain cultures are accepting of this. It is not uncommon for mothers to send their children off at that age to marry old men. Teenage pregnancy is rampant in Brasil and most girls usually do this in hopes of a ticket out of the house. But this is beyond the point. The OP needs to set an example to this guy so he can learn that what he is doing is neither acceptable nor tolerated in Ireland.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

OP HSE Health Centres will re open tomorrow at 9am. Ring your local centre tomorrow and find out contact details of whoever you need to talk to. Tell them.its a child protection issue of some urgency that cannot wait.

QuiteInterestin

Pete Campbell wrote: »

OP HSE Health Centres will re open tomorrow at 9am. Ring your local centre tomorrow and find out contact details of whoever you need to talk to. Tell them.its a child protection issue of some urgency that cannot wait.

As others have said, report this either to HSE or Guards ASAP. A childs welfare should take precedence above all other issues.

In relation to your relationship issues, I would have serious reservations about being in a long term relationship with someone who finds this behaviour acceptable. What if ye go on to have children some day? Would your girlfriend be happy if ye're daughter was dating a 21 year old? Would she have no issues with ye're 21 year old son dating a 13 year old?

treccie

neemish wrote: »

This is a Child Protection issue and as such you are actually required to report it. There are two ways in which to do this
1. Through the child protection service in the HSE. You can find the number of your local service in the phone book. Look for the number of the duty social worker.
2. During out of hours (or a time of the year like this) contact the Gardai. You also go this route if you think the child is in immediate danger.


Imagine for a second that this was your child/niece. What would you want someone else you do? I think you know what has to be done. Make the call, dont wait until something happens. Make it now

well put, phone garda station and ask to speak to someone regarding a child protection concern. There are two causes for concern here, the relationship between this man and the child and also possible neglect on the part of the mother. If your gf doesnt like you making the call tell her that your morals and the law of our country require leave you no choice.

LegacyUser

Ok, does anybody know what happens once a complaint is made? Is my identity know to the family, etc?
This will have no impact on my decision, I've made my mind up to report this anyway, but I would like to be aware of what comes next. Thanks again for the replies.

CaraMay

Can't help you with the details op but fair play to you for protecting this girl. You are doing the right thing.

neemish

ophere wrote: »

Ok, does anybody know what happens once a complaint is made? Is my identity know to the family, etc?
This will have no impact on my decision, I've made my mind up to report this anyway, but I would like to be aware of what comes next. Thanks again for the replies.

When you make a report, you will be asked lots of questions Eg how do you know the child, what is her address, school, have you ever seen anything inappropriate etc.

The HSE take what you say and then conduct an investigation. This can take time. They would most likely talk to the school and see if they have noticed anything unusual. Unless a child is in immediate danger it is highly unlikely yhat they would just remove her from her family.

It's important to remember that you only have one piece of the jigsaw. The HSE's job is to investigate and learn as much as possible abt the situation. The guidelines say that you may like to discuss this with a health professional before making a formal report.

I dont know if your name would be given but your gf may figure it out.

Just to say, this is my own understanding of the guidelines. AFAIK its accurate but you may wish to get advice in the real world

Idle Passerby

ophere wrote: »

Nope, we just had a blazing row about it when I said I was going to report it to social services

Who cares what your girlfriend thinks! she's aiding and abetting a pedophile and your bothered that she's peed off with you for not clapping her on the back for it?!

She must be either stupid or very twisted If she cant understand this is a serious issue here and completely unacceptable regardless of what she considered ok at home. You come to a new country you live by that countries rules, simple.

tinkerbell

OP, I'd be doing two things here - reporting that disgusting sick man to the gardai and then I'd be suggesting you dump your gf. How can you be in a relationship with someone who thinks it is ok for a 21 year old to be with a 13 year old primary school kid? Your gf's view of right/wrong is just messed up and to say she sees nothing wrong with it is extremely worrying.

Abi

They live in Ireland now, they must live by Irish rules. This girl is too young to know what is right from wrong, and given that there is no parental care or love for her, it is likely that she looks up to this man, and sees her as her protector - when in reality his is a paedophile.

OP, I'm glad you've reported this, hopefully this child will get the help she needs, and out of the clutches of this sick man.

I'm not sure culturally speaking whether this relationship of yours is going to work out. This is not unheard of for her, but she refuses to accept the laws here or even try to understand your side. It seems there is no talking to her on this, and shes willing to argue with you to the end of this just to defend her friend.

IrishEyes19

the first thing you do is absolutely refuse to let him come into your home.that is your first duty. After that you need to decide where you stand on this. if you have evidence ect, you can take it further. But I would certainly make it clear to your GF, that you will not accept this in your home.

wonderfullife

The key point, as already mentioned, is we apply Irish law in this country. If it's legal, commonplace or normal in Brazil, fine, but this isn't Brazil.

On another note, i'd be hesitant to join the chorus comparing this situation to <Mod Snip: Please don't refer to an ongoing police investigation>. There was a man who abused possibly hundreds of vulnerable children in his life time. This case, whilst completely improper and possibly illegal in this country, could very well be relatively benign - i.e. more similar to a non sexual close friendship.

Hard to tally the 2 cases from my point of view. The only reason i say this is when i was 13 myself i literally spent a whole summer doing "relationship" type things with a 21 year old Spanish girl staying at our home for the summer. Going to the cinema together, went to a concert, walks on the beach, dvds on the couch - if i look back now, it may have looked slightly strange or improper. It wasn't as if i had to chaperone or entertain her for the summer either.

Once it's reported to the authorities, they can be the judge of the situation and keep an eye on it. If it is in any way sexual in nature then they'll throw the book at him and rightly so. But that's the best you can do OP - report it and you've done your bit.

djimi

The age of consent in Brazil is 14 so be it there or in Ireland this man is still breaking the law. It might be commonplace in Brazil but your girlfriend needs reminding what country she is in by the sounds of it.