Family annoyed I wouldn't attend mass.

LegacyUser

Hi, I want to start by saying I am an athiest. I am in my younger twenties, and am home for Christmas. My family go to mass every year at this time (this is practically the only time that they go) and they wanted me to go. I explained that I don't believe in God, but my views were basically ignored and they told me that it was tradition to go to mass and essentially disregarded my feelings. They displayed a kind of "what is an hour to you" attitude. They claimed that it would be a bad influence for my younger brothers.

My response to all this was that my younger brothers shouldn't need my appearance at mass to reaffirm/support their faith and that my parents should accept my position. I have since refused to go at the expense of an argument - where they consider me to be completely in the wrong. I am extremely frustrated to say the least, surely I shouldn't be forced into this and if my parents had respect for my views then they would listen to them.

Just wondering what the general consensus would be of this?

CaraMay

Personally I don't think it would have killed you to go. Treat it as a family outing to a restaurant you don't like. It's once a year and for one hour - suck it up.

daisybelle2008

They're kind of right, you are kind of right. It's as big a deal as you makes it. No need to be getting your knickers in a twist about 'your views' not being respected. It doesn't have to be a political crises. Go or don't go, either side will be over it by Christmas dinner..

Tar.Aldarion

Just don't go and don't care what they think. It's a bad impression on your younger brothers if you do go.

mackerski

I'd put you in the right here. And IMO it's a good influence for the brothers. We are told what Jesus supposedly thought of hypocrites. Your parents can no more expect you to observe their religion than they would insist you enjoy Brussels sprouts just because they like them themselves.

Casshern88

I'm of the same position as yourself op, I would love nothing more than to not have to endure an hour of nonsense this evening but ive already decided im just going to go and not make a big deal, i have a head cold or something at the min so just dont have the energy to explain my views which they wouldn't understand anyway. Just zone out and think of it as a hour to review your year just gone by, set some new years resolutions or check out that hot blonde 3 pews down.

Andersonisgod

You are definitely in the right OP. Why should you go simply for the sake of not rocking the boat. You have beliefs, your family should respect those beliefs.

sffc

OP you are in your early twenties yet you are under their roof for CHRISTMAS dinner - why? Thought you were an athiest ???
If you are celebrating Christmas by accepting presents and eating the turkey, mass won't kill you will it?

mackerski

sffc wrote: »

OP you are in your early twenties yet you are under their roof for CHRISTMAS dinner - why? Thought you were an athiest ???
If you are celebrating Christmas by accepting presents and eating the turkey, mass won't kill you will it?

Yup, the Christians invented mid-winter parties alright, OP he has you there

MistyCheese

I'm not Catholic either but I don't have a personal problem with attending Catholic weddings, funerals or any other types of ceremony. Being in a church says nothing about my own beliefs, I'm not there for me or for God, I am there to support the people who do believe.

Could you not try to look upon it that way? Say to your younger siblings "Look, lads, you know I don't personally believe but mam and dad do and it's important to them so I will go along to support them. I won't be sayng 'I believe in God', because I don't; but standing in a church with my family on a day that's very important to them, in their religion doesn't change that."

I know of other people who were raised Catholic and decided to reject the faith and they have also expressed feelings of hypocrasy at the thought of entering a church but I don't see why and have said as much. You wouldn't feel like a hypocrite for attending a bar mitzvah, or a bris, would you? As an athetist you don't believe in any deity but you can still respect the beliefs of loved ones who do. And the idea that you are compromising your own beliefs by doing so is not necessarily true. You are just respecting the fact that your parents believe in it.

Dave!

I'm an atheist, but I'll be at mass tomorrow. Being a Catholic is not a prerequisite to attending mass. If my family were all Jewish or Muslim, I wouldn't have an aversion to attending their ceremonies too. Going regularly is kind of pointless and I'd have to insist there, but going to mass the odd time for particular occasions or traditions is not something I would kick up a fuss over, even if it is boring.

tinkerbell

OP, you are in the right. Nobody can force you to go to mass and I think your parents are being a bit ignorant tbh.

LegacyUser

For many people, Mass is more of a community event than a religious rite. From your parents' perspective, they have probably been talking about you to the neighbours for the whole year and may want the chance to show you off while you're here. I'm not trying to persuade you either way, but it mightn't hurt to appreciate that, for them, you going to Mass means being a part of the family and the community again, which is why they are hurt that you are refusing. If you choose not to go, find a way to reassure them on those points.

Gumbi

You are 100% in the right. I would be loathe to attend (and in turn support) the Church.

It all comes down to whether you stand for what it stands. If you don't, and you go, you are doing yourself a disservice. And honestly, who would want to stand for what the CC stands for?

Lorna123

I would hate to be ya, not believing. I am a Catholic and proud of it. You have nobody to pray to when things go wrong and nothing to hope for.
Happy Christmas.:D

woodchuck

I'm an atheist so I probably wouldn't go either in your position. BUT I think it depends on their reasons for going. It doesn't sound like they're very religious... maybe it's more of an excuse to get dressed up, spend time with the family and catch up with a few neighbours they don't see very often before/after mass? If these are their reasons I'd be more inclined to suck it up for the hour, but I don't think you're wrong by standing your ground.

Taltos

All - I understand given the time of year that this is emotive on both sides of the topic. However this thread is not a discussion point on religion or not - please keep your replies pertinent to how the OP can deal with the fallout of the family.

Any more posts going on about the merits of religion or atheism will be considered off topic and will result in moderator action.
Also please keep your replies civil - telling the OP to man-up or to suck-it-up is considered extremely uncivil and would normally result in swift action.

Thanks
Taltos

StillWaters

What have you done in previous years OP? I assume you just went along as part of the family Christmas traditions.

I think as a guest in their house, it would be polite to attend, the same as if you were invited to celebrate Eid with Muslim friends.

cafecolour

In my case, I decided family-centered affairs in churches (ala weddings, funerals, baptisms) I'd go to, but church centered-events with family (i.e. Christmas mass) I wouldn't. It depended where the focus is.

There were several years of diminishing arguments and me standing my ground (starting at 17), that eventually faded until it wasn't even mentioned and just accepted that I wouldn't be going.

I'm not even atheist tbh (more "spiritual but not religious") but the church is one of those institutions I don't particularly support, morally or politically (and the feeling's mutual). However, I was never critical of my family's attendance, just emphatic that it wasn't for me.

R.D. aka MR.D

I decided i did not want to go to mass anymore when i was 13.

My parents were really angry with me and there were fights upon fights about it.

At first it was fights about every Sunday and then about special occasions (easter/christmas)

Eventually they finally gave in to each and every one. In fact my family and I now have a great relationship when it comes to the fact that I don't go to mass. It was worth all the fights and feeling like my family hated me because not only was i engaging in the important process of asserting myself as an adult but I was developing the ability to not back down in a fight about something i think is wrong (which is a lot easier to do with your family than some one in the outside world).

acousticguy

As an "hard" atheist and myself sometimes I find myself in this position. I can understand it being just a christmas event and not much significance behind it. So I fully support you there. Recently I had the choice to go to a rememberence mass and attended it just out of respect for my lost relation. But in that occasion it was more a matter of respect for me to be honest. But for something that is fluff like christmas the choice is yours. Don't be pressured. Aswell I would add, do your parents do it as a once a year kind of thing. (According to the bible) I'm sure they have many rules I'm sure they break on a regular basis If they are so concerned about this particular day. How often do they attend? Do they break the many rules set by the bible often :P?

iguana

Another completely in the right here. You have a right to believe how you do and not feel forced to participate in religious ceremonies you don't want to be a part of. Going along with it for the sake of tradition is fine, if you feel you wish to but if you don't then that's your call.

However don't get bogged down in being upset that your parents aren't respecting your beliefs. At Christmas most people like to follow and recreate their favourite traditions. Whether that's watching a certain movie, exchanging gifts in a particular order or going to mass. It lets them relive past years and get more into the festive spirit. Your parents are probably as, if not more, disappointed that you aren't going along with the tradition than they are at your lack of belief. If you always watched Gremlins on Christmas eve but this year you decided to have a nap while it was on they'd probably be nearly as disappointed.

It's normal for traditions to change when children become adults, some fall by the wayside and new ones are formed. But it can be hard for people, especially the parents, to adapt to that, especially at first. So go easy on them. You've had your way, now move past it. Don't be upset with them and if they bring it up with you just try to let it slide and diplomatically change the subject as soon as you can.

Benny_Cake

It's entirely your choice, but I would say that there is a difference between simply attending Mass or any religious ceremony and in actually participating in it - simply being there and observing does not constitute endorsement of the Catholic Church. Ignoring all the nonsense about being a bad example to your siblings, it sounds as if this is more of a family tradition than anything else and it may be a fight with that isn't worth having. Entirely your decision, but have a happy Christmas regardless.

Scortho

Op I'd understand where they're coming from if they attended mass every week.
But as you say they only attend on Christmas Day. So if they're accusing you of setting a bad example for your siblings, are they not doing the same themselves in that it's ok to go to mass one day of the year?

Oh and next year tell them you'll be over around half 12! Still in time for the turkey too!:)

mackerski

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It's entirely your choice, but I would say that there is a difference between simply attending Mass or any religious ceremony and in actually participating in it - simply being there and observing does not constitute endorsement of the Catholic Church. Ignoring all the nonsense about being a bad example to your siblings, it sounds as if this is more of a family tradition than anything else and it may be a fight with that isn't worth having. Entirely your decision, but have a happy Christmas regardless.

The OP is part of the family too. Family traditions can and should be made inclusive. I wasn't joking earlier about the Brussels Sprouts - there are a great many trappings of Christmas that the OP will get behind. His parents can't expect that this one religious ceremony (which seems not to excite them either for the rest of the year) will be the pivotal moment for the whole celebration. Projecting their own insecurities, perhaps? It doesn't seem to me that the OP is being a dick about this - it's the parents who are failing to be culturally sensitive.

LegacyUser

I don't go despite my whole family going on Christmas day.

To those who say that you'd go to a Muslim or otherwise ceremony, well yes, I probably would but that is because I haven;t had to put up with their religion every week til my late teens. I would see it as a cultural event rather than a religious one. It doesn't mean that I respect their religion.

I find could not sit and listen to a priest preaching about X when the church has done Y so I don't go as if I did, I would be hypocritical and I'd get as annoyed as I do everytime I do go.

OP, if you don't want to go then don't. Your folks might not understand your rationale but people can be irrational when it comes to religion.

FouxDaFaFa

Lorna123 wrote: »

I would hate to be ya, not believing. I am a Catholic and proud of it. You have nobody to pray to when things go wrong and nothing to hope for.
Happy Christmas.:D

That's a little mean-spirited, isn't it?

OP, I'm similar to you. I go to family weddings/general ceremonies and remembrances but I see Christmas as a different thing. Cafecolour put it perfectly. I know my mother in particular would like me to go and I do feel bad about it but I don't see the point of me going. Churches make me hugely uncomfortable. If there were an equivalent, I wouldn't expect my parents to come to my "atheist" thing.

I think you're setting a fine example for your siblings. You do occasionally have to make sacrifices for your family and do things you won't enjoy but I don't think this particular example is one of those times.

WumBuster

You are in your ''younger twenties'' which means you are an adult and you are perfectly entitled to not go to mass if you dont want to, its you're decision and no ones business but your own if you decide not to go. Nor should you have to explain it or justify it to them. I hate this ah sure we'll have to go to mass on christmas otherwise what will all the neighbours or such and such a person think if we dont. A similiar spiel was going in my own house this morning, and Im sick of it every ****ing xmas.

Mr. Incognito

I think all religion is a glorified form of scam.

ALL religions. The hypocrites talking bout giving and moral judgement while living in rent free empty mansions and taking two collections for their upkeep as happened at Mass today.

However I went, not for me, or my beliefs but because it is Christmas. Because at Christmas we do things for OTHERS. It is the one day of the year I will attend Mass because my Mom sings in the choir and it makes her happy at Christmas and attending does not mean subscribing, it means supporting.

I think we can pack up your agenda for one day of the year and do whatever it takes to make heads happy,

Taltos

Mr. Incognito, while this is your opinion and I respect it I had previously asked posters to keep their responses directed to the OPs issue only. As a result of ignoring this mod instruction we have no choice but to infract you and ask you to please review our charter if you have not done so recently.

As PI is a strictly moderated forum please take care before posting.

Thanks
Taltos

Starokan

I think if it means that much to you then you were right not to go . Your entitled to do what you want and hopefully your position on this will be accepted from now on

Chronic Button

Sometimes, it is more important to be kind than to be right.

Calibos

To late for OP, but for others in this predicament next year....Ask your mothers would she not prefer you to stay at home and prepare the vegetables for dinner/get the dog walk out of the way etc while the religious family members attend their religious service. If she forego's the offer of help and still insists you come, then you're in 'worried about your soul' territory and if it was me I would go on this one day. This doesn't mean you have to kneel or take communion. If she agree's to your offer then you get to do a nice thing for her, get out of attending the mass, learn that she's not really that serious about the absolute necessity of attending and that it is simply about appearances for her. This is valuable information to know going forward.

Fysh

It's an awkward one alright. I think Christmas is a tough one in particular because when the whole family gets together it's easy for adults to inadvertently revert to parent-child relationships and the "do as you're told" approach from parents that entails.

For myself I stopped going to church or having any faith in my early teens, though it wasn't until I had gone off to college that I was able to get my "nope, not going to Christmas or Easter mass either" bit to actually stick. I'd make exceptions for my nan on the basis that she was profoundly devout and would get upset if any of us didn't go, but outside of that I simply stopped going.

If you decide you're not going, I think the key is to be calm and consistent when explaining that you don't want to go. Ensure you're behaving in an adult fashion, perhaps by offering to help with the prep for Christmas dinner since you'll be at home. Whatever you do, don't lose your rag or you'll just end up with two sides refusing to back down and you getting the blame for "ruining Christmas".

noooodles

The OP wanted to know what the general consensus is on this situation.
To be honest, the general consensus should not matter, you should do what you think is right. If you dont want to go - dont go.
This has to be an extremely common situation in ireland today, with most people id say backing down and attending. That is the general consensus.

For whats its worth i think your obviously correct. Its become a farce.
I myself didn't go, the only one in my family not to. I know im correct, but its bloody hard to be out on your own, especially when much of the conversation at dinner is about who was seen at mass, which mass you went to, and was it busy at mass!

Some people will do what they think is right. Others will follow the flock, and trust/hope that this is right.
Rightly or wrongly, we seem to have a LOT of flock followers in ireland.

ps:
Whats wrong with telling parents/family that YOUR christmas will be ruined by forcing you to go to mass?

The Big Red Button

This has come up numerous times in our family over the years - basically, as each of the older siblings came to the age where we could think for ourselves, we realised it was hypocritical for us to be attending mass when we believed none of it. My parents (very religious) were never happy about it, but it's gotten to the stage now where they respect our opinions, and they won't even ask us if we want to go to mass with them. (Although I'm sure they'd be delighted if any of us said that we did!)

One of my younger sisters is 20 now, and she still lives at home. She'll go to mass when asked every Sunday - but not without first saying to my mum that it's pointless for her to go, she's only doing it to keep my mum happy, and that she's not religious and doesn't believe in God or any of the rest of it. The weird thing is, my mum's still happier that she at least goes, despite all that. I don't get it!

I feel like I'm respecting my parents' beliefs more by not going along and taking up space in the church, when I think it's all absolute bullshit.

My own advice would be to never let yourself be guilted into going to mass just to keep the peace. Do it once, and they'll be twice as bad next time, because they'll expect you to give in if they nag you for long enough. Be firm about your stance, but as calm as possible too. Just keep telling them, calmly, that you're a grown adult, you respect their beliefs, and expect the same respect in return. If things get heated, leave the house, go for a walk or something. Don't back down and don't give in, but equally don't allow things to develop into a heated argument.

And, if they want to discuss your lack of religion in general, try to do it at some other time (i.e. not right before mass on a Sunday!) Set time aside to have a proper discussion about it, if you feel it might help. This might help them understand that it's something you feel strongly about it, and that it's not just you throwing a strop because you don't feel like going to mass that day.

It really does get easier with time. Stick to your principles, don't give in, and they'll hopefully get used to the idea and stop expecting you to go.

Gumbi

I would balance the issue on two opposing propositions, and judge based on your willingness to concede on those points.

Is the wish for attendance based on "let's get the family together for something" or is it an actual imposition of belief?

Eve_Dublin

chatterpillar wrote: »

This has come up numerous times in our family over the years - basically, as each of the older siblings came to the age where we could think for ourselves, we realised it was hypocritical for us to be attending mass when we believed none of it. My parents (very religious) were never happy about it, but it's gotten to the stage now where they respect our opinions, and they won't even ask us if we want to go to mass with them. (Although I'm sure they'd be delighted if any of us said that we did!)

One of my younger sisters is 20 now, and she still lives at home. She'll go to mass when asked every Sunday - but not without first saying to my mum that it's pointless for her to go, she's only doing it to keep my mum happy, and that she's not religious and doesn't believe in God or any of the rest of it. The weird thing is, my mum's still happier that she at least goes, despite all that. I don't get it!

I feel like I'm respecting my parents' beliefs more by not going along and taking up space in the church, when I think it's all absolute bullshit.

My own advice would be to never let yourself be guilted into going to mass just to keep the peace. Do it once, and they'll be twice as bad next time, because they'll expect you to give in if they nag you for long enough. Be firm about your stance, but as calm as possible too. Just keep telling them, calmly, that you're a grown adult, you respect their beliefs, and expect the same respect in return. If things get heated, leave the house, go for a walk or something. Don't back down and don't give in, but equally don't allow things to develop into a heated argument.

And, if they want to discuss your lack of religion in general, try to do it at some other time (i.e. not right before mass on a Sunday!) Set time aside to have a proper discussion about it, if you feel it might help. This might help them understand that it's something you feel strongly about it, and that it's not just you throwing a strop because you don't feel like going to mass that day.

It really does get easier with time. Stick to your principles, don't give in, and they'll hopefully get used to the idea and stop expecting you to go.

Very good advice. The calm and respectful but persistant approach is what many of us had to go through in Ireland. I think religion is too big a deal to just suck up and go along with for the sake of keeping peace. If your respectful of their beliefs otherwise, then they, as adults, should eventually be respectful of yours as they are adults as well. I'd say stick to your guns on such an important issue. This is not the same thing as visiting your auntie halfway down the country on St Stephen's Day to keep the peace. Be nice about it though. They mean well.

a posse ad esse

I respect your beliefs but not your decision attending mass to make your parents happy. I think by you going has allowed your parents to disregard your views. It is one thing attending a religious wedding, funeral or christening to show your respects for the individuals in question. But going to mass on Christmas and maybe Easter times which are supposed to be the holiest for Christians is entirely different. Going to church is not about keeping your parents, grandparents happy or keeping up appearances it's supposed to be about you and your relationship with God. I personally would be more disappointed if someone went along to appease someone instead of going to actually be closer to God.

I am a disillusioned Catholic and refuse to set foot inside the church again but I am still a believer. I have three young children and decided not to baptise them. I answer whatever questions as best to my husband and my abilities about God and what it's really like to be a Christian. I think it is best that my children figure out and decide if they want to pursue a relationship with Him or not. Faith and religion are personal matters and not something that goes well with many when it's expected or forced onto people, it has to come willingly from within.

As for what happened with your parents this year, maybe you can start with preparing yourself for Easter? Maybe not come home and go on holidays with friends or on your own?. When Christmas comes around try something similar? When they do say something then remind them that you are not a believer therefore would not like to participate in the festivities of Christmas. If they insist that you come home to be with the family (which is the many views of some of my atheist friends) then make mention of compromise. This compromise can be about you not attending mass. If your brothers are under 18 then they will have to grin and bare it but for you, you are an independent adult. I am sure you are not expecting your parents to accept your views and not go to mass themselves but they could at least feel the same for you. I will say that your parents don't have to accept your beliefs but they need to learn to respect them.

looksee

One of my younger sisters is 20 now, and she still lives at home. She'll go to mass when asked every Sunday - but not without first saying to my mum that it's pointless for her to go, she's only doing it to keep my mum happy, and that she's not religious and doesn't believe in God or any of the rest of it. The weird thing is, my mum's still happier that she at least goes, despite all that. I don't get it!

I know people who are fully aware that their children say they have no faith, but they have a sense that it is more important that your body be in the church and in the presence of the Mass than what you personally believe.

This is something that the catholic church has taught over the centuries - the mass was in Latin, and the people were not involved, so long as people were there it did not matter what they believed, the church did the believing for them.

This lasted up until the mass moved into English and people were expected to get involved - having educated people to think, the church had to make a gesture towards giving them the impression they were there by choice rather than blind obligation, and given the choice, many people have chosen not to attend. There are however still many people who were reared to the belief that it did not matter what you thought, so long as you were physically present, and that is the situation that creates this kind of situation.

That, and a desire to maintain traditions and the nostalgic sense of the family doing something together, and a concern about what the neighbours might think

LegacyUser

You should go for the social aspect of it, who knows who you might meet there? Just get over being bitter about religion and everything for an hour. Have a few drinks before you go in, you won't give a damn anymore

Roisy7

I don't go anymore but I do go on Christmas Day.

For me I told my mother when I was 14 that I didn't want to go anymore. Cue HUGE rows, and I gave in for a while, which I regret.

Then when I came home from Erasmus, I just told her I hadn't been to mass in six months (I lived in a predominately Protestant country and I didn't even know where the nearest church was to be honest) and I wasn't going to go anymore. There was a bit of sniping but it was grand after that.

Anyway, I go for weddings, funerals etc. The wishes of the couple getting married/deceased means that it is respectful to go. I know when I get married I won't get married in a church and I'm delighted now that civil marriages can be performed in hotels, castles, even the Zoo!

And I also go for Christmas. It means a lot to my mother and it's forty minutes out of the day. It's just me and her at home and she lost someone close to her this year so there was no way that I was going to cause a row on Christmas Day over this. Going once a year doesn't mean that I condone what the Catholic Church is up to, but it means something important to my mother.

You can have issues with your family's beliefs- I have plenty with my mother's- but is Christmas Day the time to bring them up? I'm with the poster who said it's more important to be kind than right sometimes.

Ickle Magoo

OK OP - you've had three pages of opinions/advice here.

As there are other much more appropriate forums for discussion on religion and it's place in society/family expectations, I'm going to lock this now.

All the best. :cool: